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That's a lot of Black Knights!

Based on your tactical design, you might want to replace at least one squadron of Black Knights with Hellblasters. Azrael would stick with them while Sammael heads off with the Black Knights. A Talonmaster would also help your Black Knights, but he is quite expensive.

Thanks for your answer.

Hm, good point reagarding Hellblasters. Have to think about.
But do you think, that the inclusion of Hellblaster would be limit the maneuverability?

Unfortunately, you cannot conga line back to Azrael. His invul aura is for models within 6" of Azrael, not units, so only the 1 or 2 Black Knights at the back will get the invul. It's better to advance the Black Knights every turn for Jink and use Speed of the Raven on whatever unit you are going to overcharge with.

I think you should drop Azrael and the Lieutenant and replace them with 1 Talonmaster, drop the tac squad for a third scout squad and try to find space for either a Dark Talon or another Talonmaster.

abyrn wrote:
Unfortunately, you cannot conga line back to Azrael. His invul aura is for models within 6" of Azrael, not units, so only the 1 or 2 Black Knights at the back will get the invul. It's better to advance the Black Knights every turn for Jink and use Speed of the Raven on whatever unit you are going to overcharge with.

Argh, you are right.

abyrn wrote:
I think you should drop Azrael and the Lieutenant and replace them with 1 Talonmaster, drop the tac squad for a third scout squad and try to find space for either a Dark Talon or another Talonmaster.

Well, I think that (probably?) Azrael is impotrant to survive first turn shooting? Also, i don't have Talonmaster model and haven't plan to buy it (right now I'm not thaht fan from it). Also, I only have 2 Scouts sqaud atm.

Based on the Feedback and the not possible conga line back to Azrael.
Think has more bunch and speed.

Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment - 463 Pts
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Azrael - 180 Pts

1 Lieutenant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Thunder hammer, 1 x Jump pack - 99 Pts

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines, Flamer
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - 74 Pts

Dark Angels: Outrider Detachment - 1057 Pts
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - - - > 183 Pts

*************** 3 Fast ***************
Ravenwing Darkshroud, Heavy bolter - 138 Pts

8 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 368 Pts

8 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 368 Pts

Adeptus Custodes: Supreme Command Detachment - 480 Pts
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter - 160 Pts

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter - 160 Pts

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter - 160 Pts

Total: 2.000

Those Dawneagle Jet bike Knights look cool as. They look just like the Corvex!

For 400 points you could get 2 dark Talons, just something to consider. However that list looks fun and those jet bikes are going on my wish list.

Maxamato wrote:
Thanks for your answer.

Hm, good point reagarding Hellblasters. Have to think about.
But do you think, that the inclusion of Hellblaster would be limit the maneuverability?

The Hellblasters can still march along with Azrael - it just gives you options.

Your Custodes Supreme Command Detachment list would be quite zippy! I can't quite bring myself to add those fellows to my Ravenwing but you might be on to something.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Maxamato wrote:
Thanks for your answer.

Hm, good point reagarding Hellblasters. Have to think about.
But do you think, that the inclusion of Hellblaster would be limit the maneuverability?

The Hellblasters can still march along with Azrael - it just gives you options.

Your Custodes Supreme Command Detachment list would be quite zippy! I can't quite bring myself to add those fellows to my Ravenwing but you might be on to something.

Like our own Talon Masters Supreme Command Detachment?


(Edit reason: wrote dark talons instead of talon master)

Maxamato wrote:
Yeah, have about 30 Black Knights and 0 Inceptors but I have 30 Hellbalster too.

30 Hellblaster probably to much?

I'm also thinking about, what actual a competitive DA lsit should consider. (Mono and/or as soup).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have seen, that a lot of people have played Hellblasterblobs, what do you think of such kind of list?

Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment - 433 Pts.
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Azrael - 180 Pts.

1 Lieutenant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Chainsword, 1 x Jump pack - 78 Pts.

*************** 3 Standard ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts.

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts.

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. -65 Pts.

Dark Angels: Outrider Detachment - 1563 Pts.
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - 183 Pts.

*************** 4 Sturm ***************
Ravenwing Darkshroud, Heavy bolter - 138 Pts.

9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.

9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.

9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.
Total: 2.000 Pts

Idea is, that first turn all Black Knights, Azrael, Sammy and Lieutenant stand nearby Azi because of 4++. Darkshroud covers the blob.

My first turn, one BK units advance in front and shoots/charge thanks to SotR and with WftDA. Supported from Sammy as well Lieutenant.

The other Black Knights will conga lineup to Azi.

thoughts?

Almost exactly what I tweaked my list to, except I put in only TWO black Knight squads, and made the third one into 3 squads of 3x Ravenwing Bikers so that I could take a Ravenwing Ancient. Also instead of Azrael and LT, I had Talonmaster and a Psyker. I figured 2 was enough since you can only give one WftDA a turn?

Thanks guys fort he Feedback.

How to you keep the Black Knights save against 1T shooting?

A RW Ancient would be also nice but where I should take the points?

However, mid-October there is a local Tournament 1,5K point and only 1 LoW allowed.

So, I have adopted the 2K list with the Golden Boys:

Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment - 1020 Pts
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - 183 Pts

Librarian, Jump Pack
+ Bolt pistol, Force sword
+ Psychic Powers, Smite, Aversion, Righteous Repugnance - 120 Pts

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 65 Pts

*************** 3 FA ***************
5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 230 Pts

4 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 184 Pts

Ravenwing Darkshroud - 128 Pts

Adeptus Custodes: Supreme Command Detachment - 480 Pts
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter - 160 Pts

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter - 160 Pts

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter - 160 Pts
Total: 1500 pts.
CP: 9

Not sure about the Libby as well as his powers. Is the Libby worth?
Should I take one big Unit of Blak Knights or should I keep them as it is?

Or, another Idea:

Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment - 480 Pts
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - 183 Pts

Librarian, Jump Pack
+ Storm bolter, Force sword
+ Psychic Powers, Smite, Aversion, Righteous Repugnance - 122 Pts

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - 55 Pts

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 65 Pts

Blood Angels: Supreme Command Detachment - 378 Pts
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Captain, Jump Pack
+ Thunder hammer, Storm shield -> 36 Pkt. - 129 Pts

Captain, Jump Pack
+ Thunder hammer, Storm shield -> 36 Pkt. - 129 Pts

Captain, Jump Pack
+ Power fist, Storm shield -> 27 Pkt. - 120 Pts

Dark Angels: Outrider Detachment - 642 Pts
*************** 1 HQ ***************
1 Lieutenant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Power fist, 1 x Jump pack - 90 Pts

*************** 3 FA ***************
Ravenwing Darkshroud, Heavy bolter - 138 Pts

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 230 Pts

4 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 184 Pts

Total: 1500 pts.
CP: 10
The BA Capts. give some decent Melee but they aren’t fast as they Golden Boys.
And, they need a lot of CP’s.

For both lists I think I will made the Libby as the Warlord and give him the Brilliant Strategist as well as the Shroud of Heroes relivt.

Any Feedback would be great.

You're getting pretty soupy, but I guess that's OK! At least the Dawn Eagles fit the theme of the army - the BA Slamguinius' version make the list look like its trying very hard. To keep Dark Angels pure I second the suggestion of someone earlier about Dark Talons instead of the Dawn Eagles.

I run nine Black Knights as one big squad rather than two smaller ones as you have them. Weapons From the Dark Age works best on large squads - you only get one use per turn. The same goes for Speed of the the Raven. One big squad running with Sammael can take advantage of both Strategems each turn - thus gaining the 4++ Jink save without a negative effect on your Damage 3 superchariging WFtDA shooting. The downside is that the enemy can focus fire on them. At least they are immune to morale losses!

My nine-man Black Knights squadron took down an Eldar Knight in one round of shooting two weekends ago.. Big guns are a worry, but the 4++ plus the Dark Shroud can help against low-volume high damage shots. They are vulnerable to lots of small arms fire. I lost them to two-twenty man Guardian squads with Shuriken Catapults in rapid-fire range (one of them used deep strike). Doom didn't help...I try to keep my Black Knights at the 16" to 18" range, exploiting their mobility. I took a six-man Black Knight squadron as the centre of a 1,250 point tourney and they were great. They died in one game where I rerolled a bunch of ones - dance with lady luck enough times and you get burnt! Otherwise they took down the enemy's big scary things while the Talonmaster and a normal Ravenwing squad hanlded crowds.

I am not sold on Dark Angels Librarians for your list. I think that a Lieutenant with a Jump Pack or Talonmaster would be much more useful.


ps - While my Ravenwing Ancient looks nice, he is not all that useful. Adding +1 attack to the list is not a huge buff for a list that doesn't really want to be in close combat. I tried him out for a while when 8th dropped and he doesn't make the cut for me. If he had the other Ancient abilities it would be a different story. Paradoxically, the Ravenwing Champion can be useful. In addition, a Talonmaster (or three) is not that hard to kitbash. A plasic Landspeeder with an extra assault cannon and heavy bolter from your bitz box plus some Ravenwing bling from your Black Knights left-overs and you are good to go. I wouldn't call myself a modeller and I was pleasantly surprised with my results.

Thanks for the answer.

Regarding soup:
I feel, in a competitive environment, mono list (especially Marines of any kind) isn’t worth. Or do you have another experience? Because if I look to ETC/LOV lists etc there were all soups.

@Ancient/Champion:
Agree with you: On paper he doesn’t looks very scary.
Yeah, the RW champion looks decent. I have tried to integrate him into the list, but he is always the first who is kicked out if points running out.

@Talonmaster
Is the Talonmaster sooooo good, that he is a must have? Because on paper he looks god but the Heavy Weapon penalty hurts. I don’t feel impressed.
That is the nice thing from the Shield Captains because the don’t get any penalties and weren’t vehicles (so such abilities like Melta doesn’t work against them [ok poison will work better against the Shield-Captains ).

@Libby:
I feel also not so hapyy with them too.

@Black Knights:
Ok, then I will do a 9 Black Knight squad.

Looking at your first list, it seems you didn't add a weapon to the Darkshroud. It must at least have a Heavy Bolter.

As for the Talon Master, he should always be escorting Sammael, so with just the -1 to hit with Hvy weapons, you get to reroll ones and twos anyway. They make a great tandem.

At some point, I would think about getting 1 or preferably 2 Dark Talons in the list.

I do not think the ravenwing champion or ancient are worth the points, a libby on a bike or with jump pack really works for me. I use him to debuf big enemy things with mind worm and or aversion. knights and baneblades get less scary when they can only hit on a 6+.

I agree that a Libby is great, getting mind wipe off on a Castellan Knight feels so dirty.

SpaceJS wrote:
..., a libby on a bike or with jump pack really works for me. I use him to debuf big enemy things with mind worm and or aversion. knights and baneblades get less scary when they can only hit on a 6+.

Good Idea! Thanks.
I guess that a Libby with JP would be the better option becuase of the deep strike ability? Otherwise it could be hard to come in range with mind wipe.
However, with mind wipe it is bit gambling against an IK?
What happens, if I cast multiple times successful mind wipe on the same target?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
Looking at your first list, it seems you didn't add a weapon to the Darkshroud. It must at least have a Heavy Bolter.

Thanks, good catch. Will add it next time.

Maxamato wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:
..., a libby on a bike or with jump pack really works for me. I use him to debuf big enemy things with mind worm and or aversion. knights and baneblades get less scary when they can only hit on a 6+.

Good Idea! Thanks.
I guess that a Libby with JP would be the better option becuase of the deep strike ability? Otherwise it could be hard to come in range with mind wipe.
However, with mind wipe it is bit gambling against an IK?
What happens, if I cast multiple times successful mind wipe on the same target?

That is the really dirty part, it stacks and yes with jump pack



the one on the right, still in progress though. another good addition when you are using a few dreadnoughts and some other armor is a techmarine on bike with a conversion beamer

One good thing about the bike librarian is that you can cast spells after advancing, and he gets the auto advance of 6" from turbo boost, giving him an effective threat range of 38" (20" advance and 18" range) for mind wipe and 44" (20" + 24" range) for aversion.

Though the jump pack librarian has some advantages in that it has fly and can deep strike.

I have seen, that the Rune Priest have the same power as we have (-1 to hit roll). Debuff unit spam?
Couples of Libbys and Rune Priests and that nasty Super heavy hits on 7+ .

Does any Imperium faction have a power or ability to reduce the enemies Ld?

Bike Librarian is index-only. You can still use him, but he did not get the big points discount that other librarians got. And don't be surprised if tournaments stop allowing index units a year or two from now.

All that said, bike librarians are very mobile with turbo-boost and the T5 +1W helps a lot.

I've been running my Librarian on a Bike as an Aux Support Detachment from a vanilla chapter. He advances up and casts Null Zone. Its a gamble, but the effect on folks who bank on Invul saves is priceless.

I added a Talonmaster in Feb and I haven't looked back.

Null Zone is great and many Imperial armies are including it to hurt Knights.

Maxamato wrote:
I have seen, that the Rune Priest have the same power as we have (-1 to hit roll). Debuff unit spam?
Couples of Libbys and Rune Priests and that nasty Super heavy hits on 7+ .

Does any Imperium faction have a power or ability to reduce the enemies Ld?

of course , our own power Mind Wipe does that among other things

After looking at what people are using and suggesting, how would this list feel like? Not enough bodies? Ineffective? I am trying to keep both steady fire of plasma along with some mobility. Azrael and the Lieutenant would babysit the larger guns on the backline while Sammael with the Knights and Darkshroud harass and attempt to take objectives. The Heavy Bolters on the scouts are intended more for harassment so it gets harder to ignore the scouts. More fire aimed at them means less fire aimed at anything else. 1986 points total

Battalion Detachment
HQ
-Azrael
-Sammael in Sableclaw

Troops
-Scout Squad
--Heavy Weapon Scout Selections: Heavy bolter
--3x Scout (Boltgun) Scout Sergeant Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

-Scout Squad
--Heavy Weapon Scout Selections: Heavy bolter
--3x Scout (Boltgun) Scout Sergeant Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

-Scout Squad
--Heavy Weapon Scout Selections: Heavy bolter
--3x Scout (Boltgun) Scout Sergeant Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Fast Attack
-Ravenwing Black Knights MSU

-Ravenwing Black Knights MSU

-Ravenwing Darkshroud
--Selections: Heavy bolter

Flyer
-Ravenwing Dark Talon
--Selections: 2x Hurricane bolter

Dedicated Transport
-Razorback
--Selections: Twin assault cannon

-Razorback
--Selections: Twin assault cannon

Spearhead Detachment (Imperium - Dark Angels)
HQ
-Primaris Lieutenant
--Selections: Bolt pistol, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

Heavy Support
-Devastators
--4x Space Marine (Plasma Cannon)
--Space Marine Sergeant
--Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

-Hellblaster Squad
--Selections: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
--Hellblaster Sergeant

-Hellblaster Squad
--Selections: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
--Hellblaster Sergeant

Eldarsif; your list has two key problems in my view.

1. Based on my experience in running a pure primaris list, relying on plasma as your sole source of anti tank/monster is a bad idea. Too many things have damage reduction or BS reduction.

2. MSU. You have 16 drops assuming no-one rides in the razorbacks during deployment. I can't see anyone who would want to be inside - Azrael's not doing his job if he's not on the field protecting others with his invulnerable, and the devastators will suffer the -1 to hit if they start off mounted. Additionally, your black knights and hellblasters aren't going to get the full benefit of WftDA because they're in small squads.

Sacrificing the 1 CP from the Outrider detachment allows you to combine the black knights and the hellblasters. Swap the primaris lieutenant for a standard lieutenant, and he can hop inside a razorback during deployment. Now you only have 13 drops - significantly increasing your chance of finishing deployment first. This should also free up about 10 points, which combined with the 14 you already have is more than enough to upgrade your plasma cannons to lascannons.

With the new +1 cover strat for going 2nd, does that possibly allow talk of the LRC being used as a delivery system for Knights + asmodai/Ancient again. A 1+ Land Raider is quite a tough cookie (especially under the darkshroud umbrella turn one), or is the stormraven still better (-2 to hit plus a 2+ save now). Stormraven, 5 knights, asmodai, 2 dark talons and darkshroud is still a huge chunk of points though.

Stormraven is cheaper, faster, cooler and has better weapons. Also, can bring along a dreadnought!

 Vector Strike wrote:
Stormraven is cheaper, faster, cooler and has better weapons. Also, can bring along a dreadnought!

Technically the typical LRC is cheaper than the Stormraven but has much worse weapons. Only saving grace is the T8 and 2+ armour, but loses twin las and twin MM with the addition of twin AC and and a SB. It is faster and harder to hit which tells me the basic LR body should come down about 40-50pts.

The basic Land Raider can also be stopped by a single Gaunt charging it. No thanks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The basic Land Raider can also be stopped by a single Gaunt charging it. No thanks.

the Intractable stratagem is costly at 2CP, but always worth it for a Land Raider to Fall Back and shoot. this is why the Dark Angels Land Raider is better than most chapters'.

The main problem with a Land Raider is that there are a lot of Imperial Knights in the current competitive meta, so a lot of lists are tooled up to kill them. These same tools are even more effective at killing a Land Raider, as they are less durable in general than a Knight. There are also just plain more points-efficient choices out there.