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 ZergSmasher wrote:
Inceptors by a country mile. The ability to hide in reserves is crucial for an expensive unit like that. Black Knights can try to hide out of LOS, but often that means they won't be doing anything interesting on the first turn anyway. Plus, the firepower doesn't even compare between the two. Black Knights really don't want to be in CC either, although they are admittedly better if they end up in that situation. But surviving Inceptors can fall back and shoot without having to spend 2 CP on Intractable.

+1. Inceptors are absolutely the best source of plasma that Dark Angels have.

Black Knights get the stratagems like Speed of the Raven. So when they survive they can do a lot more than inceptors. But in my experience they are your opponent's first target and a darkshroud isn't enough to protect them if you go second and can't Jink. Maybe Prepared Positions helps, but the safest place for your plasma is not on the table at all. So advantage to inceptors.

Chapter Approved may tip this balance so don't buy anything for another week or two!

I'm planning on running an azrael deathball, with 10 hellblasters, 6 aggressors, supported by a LT, a darkshroud, and an ancient. My thought is to take the middle with azrael and crew, split off my screens when I can, and use a fast strike force with a Talonmaster and either black knights or incpetors to hit targets not in range of the central deathball.

My concern with inceptors is them getting zoned out from valuable targets. It really doesn't take many units to make vast swathes of the board inaccessible, and they have a round to get their area denial setup before I can even try. Black knights can move 20" from round one, still fire and charge, and keeping them from targets requires a lot more effort.

Not to say I don't think deep strike is valuable, I use reivers for deployable screens, to run up and bad touch vehicles, or land on objectives. If the reivers end up getting zoned out not doing much I didn't spend that much on them. But I really need my mobile force to work, and between the talon master and whichever flavor of fast plasma I chose, it's a chunk of points.

What's people's opinion on Deathwing as a support detachment in a non-competitive army?

My friends and I are doing the Vigilus campaign, so we're all using our fluffy armies to have some fun. I was thinking about taking a Vanguard detachment of DW. What are thoughts on a 750 point force?

Spotted in a DA facebook group:



It means the Ravenwing will get a formation, just like the IF folks got theirs. It'll be in the upcoming Vigilus campaign book

 Vector Strike wrote:
Spotted in a DA facebook group:



It means the Ravenwing will get a formation, just like the IF folks got theirs. It'll be in the upcoming Vigilus campaign book

Man..there's already a typo. Clearly the 'R' needs to be removed

Looks like I might get lucky, getting some black knights, a talon master, and a darkshroud right before they get a formation in vigilus.

Chapter Approved 2018 DA changes









GW Wargear

- Master-crafted Power Sword 10 > 6
- Meltagun 17 > 14
- Missile Launcher 25 > 20 (!)
- Multi-melta 27 > 22 (!)
- Plasma Cannon 21 > 16 (!)
- Plasma Cutter 7 > 5
- Plasmagun 13 > 11
- Plasma pistol >l 7 > 5
- Power Fist 12 > 9
- Reaper Autocannon 18 > 10 (!)
- Relic Blade 21 > 9 (!!!)
- Servo-arm 12 > 0 (!!)
- Sniper Rifle 4 > 2
- Stalker Bolt Rifle 2 > 0
- Storm Shield (Characters) 15 > 10 (!)
- Storm Shield (non-Characters) 5 > 2 (!)
- Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon 34 > 24 (!!)
- Twin Lascannon 50 > 40 (!!)
- Twin Multi-melta 54 > 40 (!!)
- Typhoon Missile Launcher 50 > 38 (!!)
- Volkite Charger 6 > 3
- Whirlwind Castellan Launcher 25 > 15 (!!)
- Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher 34 > 20 (!!)
- Wrist-mounted Grenade Launcher 4 > 0
- Astartes Grenade Launcher 11 > 6 (!)
- Auxiliary Grenade Launcher 1 > 0
- Cerberus Launcher 5 > 0
- Chainfist 22 > 11 (!!)
- Combi-flamer 11 > 8
- Combi-grav 17 > 13
- Combi-melta 19 > 15
- Combi-plasma 15 > 11 (exactly the same price of a normal plasmagun, lol)
- Cyclone Missile Launcher 50 > 38 (!!)
- Dreadnought Combat Weapon 40 > 30 (!!)
- Eviscerator 22 > 11 (!!)
- Flamer 9 > 6
- Flamestorm Gauntlets 18 > 15
- Grav-gun 15 > 12
- Grenade Harness 8 > 0
- Heavy Flamer 17 > 14
- Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon 36 > 30 (!)
- Heavy Plasma Cannon 17 > 16

GW Units (no wargear)

- Assault Squad with Jump Packs 16 > 15
- Company Veterans 16 > 14
- Contemptor Dreadnought 98 > 88
- DW Cataphractii 30 > 26
- DW Knights 45 > 35 (!!)
- DW Tartaros 26 > 23
- DW Terminators 26 > 23
- Dreadnought 70 > 60 (!!)
- Drop Pod 83 > 63 (!!)
- Hunter 90 > 80 (!!)
- Intercessor Squad 18 > 17
- Interrogator-Chaplain 85 > 80 (!)
- Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator 125 > 100 (!!!)
- Interrogator-Chaplain in Jump Pack 103 > 95 (!)
- Land Raider 239 > 200 (!!!!!!!)
- Land Raider Crusader 244 > 200 (!!!!!!!!)
- Land Raider Redeemer 244 > 180 (!!!!!!!!!!!!)
- Librarian in Terminator 120 > 102 (!!!)
- Master in Cataphract 126 > 95 (!!!!!!)
- Master in Gravis 102 > 90 (!!)
- Master in Terminator 105 > 95 (!!!)
- Primaris Chaplain 85 > 77 (!)
- Primaris Master 87 > 78 (!)
- RW Attack Bike Squad 35 > 25 (!!)
- RW Bike Squad 25 > 21 (!)
- RW Black Knights 46 > 38 (!)
- RW Land Speeders 70 > 50 (!!!!)
- Redemptor Dreadnought 140 > 105 (!!!!!!!)
- Repulsor 210 > 185 (!!!!!)
- Scout Bike Squad 23 > 21
- Servitors 2 > 5 (WTF)
- Venerable Dreadnought 90 > 80 (!!)

---

FW Wargear

- Leviathan Siege Claw (single/pair) 55 > 30/40 (!!!!!/!!!)
- Leviathan Siege Drill (single/pair) 65 > 40/50 (!!!!!/!!!)
- Magna-melta Cannon 70 > 50 (!!!!)
- Plasma Destroyer 52 > 40 (!!)
- Seismic Hammer 48 > 40 (!)
- Dreadnought Chainfist (single/pair) 46 > 38/48 (!)
- Dreadnought Combat Weapon (single/pair) 40 > 30/40 (!!)

FW Units (no wargear) (skipping super-heavies)

- Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought 106 > 88 (!!!)
- Fire Raptor Gunship 250 > 280
- Land Raider Achilles 270 > 230 (!!!!!!!!)
- Land Raider Helios 252 > 215 (!!!!!!!)
- Land Raider Prometheus 290 > 250 (!!!!!!!!)
- Relic Contemptor Dreadnought 135 > 110 (!!!!!)
- Relic Deredeo Dreanought 135 > 120 (!!!)
- Relic Land Raider Proteus 264 > 225 (!!!!!!!)

(link to all stuff: https://imgur.com/gallery/d8Ae4TN)

AllI can say to that lot is !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did the Dark Talon actually go down in points? Is it not still 180+20 for wargear?

Ravenwing and Deathwing got a lot better though.

Servitors went up because they don't pay for servo arm anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also thank you much for that summary of changes.


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Now might be a good time to make a new Dark Angels thread for 2019? Post your updated unit reviews etc and I'll put them into new OP.

very exciting changed indeed! my normal list picked up at least 130 points just from guesstimating. Seems like most armies got a bit of a points decrease though, so curious how these changes will pan out.

Here's hoping the Vigilus content brings some more love to the first.

Wooooh 5 DW Knights went from 250 to 185 pts ! And their accompanying Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator is 25 pts cheaper too !

Also, playing Tartaros is even more advantageous than regular Terminators because they're the same cost, have 6" move, can now have a free Grenade harness and the Reaper autocannon is now 10 pts against the Assault cannon's 22 pts.

My (very preliminary) takeaways from these leaks:
The good:
Dreadnoughts (all varieties): These were already not terrible, but not good enough to make the top tier lists, but now I think a dread-heavy list could really do some work. Probably still have to have the right stuff supporting them though, and apparently they forgot about the poor FW Mortis Dreadnought.
Deathwing: Kind of a mixed bag. Regular termie squads are still subpar, I think, but might be okay in the right list. Deathwing Knights are the big winners here, with the unit themselves going way down, their shields going down, and their preferred transport (Land Raiders) and buddies (Interrogator-chappys) also getting nice points drops. The Deathwing Party Bus (LR Crusader, DW Knights, Asmodai, DW Ancient) probably got around 150-200 points cheaper. Probably still too much of an "eggs in one basket" trick to work in highly competitive lists, but at least it is better. Funnily enough, Tartaros termies are probably better than their standard cousins for the reasons Aaranis noted above.
Veterans: These used to be too expensive when kitted out with special/combi weapons; now they might have a place in lists, especially with Drop Pods getting a price drop. Storm Bolters will probably still be the way to go as a nice little anti-horde unit. At 80 with 5 SBs, they make a cheaper alternative to Aggressors.
Ravenwing: Between the special weapons becoming slightly cheaper and the bikes themselves going down in cost, I think they might be reasonably playable now. Black Knights are the big winners here, going down by 8 points a pop. which adds up when you are running a 6-model unit. Might actually make them a viable alternative to Plasma Inceptors. Scout bikes are probably still better even though they now cost the same as naked Ravenwing, but Ravenwing have a niche (fast special weapons) that they can fill. Time will tell if they are worth it.
Vehicles: Land Speeders went down, but are probably still not good enough. Might need playtesting to confirm this, though. The Stalker, Hunter and Whirlwind all got decent drops too. The big winners here are the Land Raiders and the Repulsor, which all got significantly cheaper. The FW Sicarans got good drops too, at least certain variants.
The bad (or at least disappointing):
Non-Primaris Marines: Tacticals are still 13 points? Really GW? Same with Assault Marines, although their jump packs got a point cheaper, so there's that (insert golf clap here). Yes, the special and heavy weapons got cheaper, but that's not enough to get Tactical Marines on the table. Devastators, at least, got some improvement with the heavy weapon point drops.
Land Speeder Vengeance: Apparently GW thought these were already good enough. News flash: they aren't.
The flyers: Nephilim Jetfighter is still stuck playing second fiddle to the Dark Talon, although at least the Lascannons got cheaper. Dark Talons are still awesome, so I didn't actually expect any changes (honestly I'm just glad they missed the nerf bat this time!). Stormravens are still a little expensive, but at least their weapons got cheaper, so maybe they'll have a role. Xiphon Interceptors actually went up in points, but I'm not sure what they are armed with so maybe with the weapon points drops they stayed the same?

Just my 2 cents from reading the changes. We'll just have to see how the meta shifts (a lot will depend on what happened to other armies besides ours).

We're also lacking point cost reductions on terminator characters to go with these terminators units changes.
Post CA, dw ancient/champion cost more than terminator masters/librarians... Not sure I agree with this.

Xiphon has 2 twin lascannons and a special missile battery, so in the end it costs the same


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Our Vigilius formation

https://youtu.be/sT0eDbjQTyc?t=1189

Choose a detachment with the Dark Angels keyword and all Ravenwing-keyworded models there will get a new Keyword, Attack Squadron
The new Warlord Trait lets your Warlord to always attack first (with the Field Commander Stratagem - a generic 1CP Stratagem that everyone that used a Specialized Detachment has access - you could give the Warlord Trait to Ravenwing Champion without making him your Warlord)
The new Relic is a Relic Blade with +1 to Wound vs Monsters/Vehicles
The 2CP Stratagem lets an Attack Squadron unit in the Fight Phase to either Move + Advance (if no enemy unit is within 1") or Fall Back (if there is an enemy unit within 1") - both after having already fought (it doesn't say End of Fight Phase, so I guess you might use it before the enemy unit has fought - if your unit has Charged or isn't fighting something that always fight first, after all...)
The 1CP Stratagem gives +1 to hit to ALL Attack Squadron units against a single target after an Attack Squadron unit has at least caused a Wound in that same target (it's basically the same thing the 7e formation gave, but having to Wound instead of only to Hit)

Guys this Ravenwing detachment is _bonkers_. +1 to hit means no Gets Hot. Falling back after fighting in the Fight phase makes White Scars look like chumps. Combined with the big points drops for Black Knights, I think we'll see this on tables. They still die to shooting tho...

Can any Ravenwing units take a relic blade?

abyrn wrote:
Can any Ravenwing units take a relic blade?

No unfortunately. Only Masters.

Talonmaster has power sword, and new detachment has relic sword he can swap

I'm loving the Specialist Detachment. Going to chew through CP even faster, but hopefully it'll be worth it.

Question. Will models on land speeders -- Dark Shroud, Talonmaster, Sammy on Sableclaw -- get a points decrease because they're on them or no? I'm assuming no since they weren't called out explicitly, but that would be at least 60 more points, which would be awesome.

Yes to the Ravenwing detachment, and instead of taking scouts, I'm seriously thinking about adding a Deathwatch battalion for CPs. They are pretty solid now too. One of the only "regular" marine lists that got massive boosts.

I find it extremely odd that our death/ravenwing characters didn't get reductions to match. I see very little pointsin taking ancients or apothecaries now

Deathwing ancient is still good as hell. His storm shield dropped 5 points. I wouldn't take apothecary unless you have 1500+ points of stuff for him to heal every turn.

abyrn wrote:
Can any Ravenwing units take a relic blade?

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but the new relic just has the Relic Blade profile. You need a power sword to swap for it

 bullyboy wrote:
Yes to the Ravenwing detachment, and instead of taking scouts, I'm seriously thinking about adding a Deathwatch battalion for CPs. They are pretty solid now too. One of the only "regular" marine lists that got massive boosts.

I was actually doing a lot of this before CA dropped, and it was working decently even then. It'd be very, very strong now, so I can theoretically recommend it, though I've been too excited at the idea of bringing RW and DW back out to see what the new DA/DW joint force would look like now. Generally, though, the 2 point storm shield price is a tremendous boost for them, maybe even a little bit too much of one. And it wasn't their only buff!

PS - I still can't believe that Watch Captain Artemis didn't get a points drop, that's a bizarre and indefensible choice for GW. It's not one that actually matters for balance, as it isn't like DW desperately needs access to him or anything. But that last part is why it's so weird that he didn't get a drop. He's not even that great! He's just a captain with some interesting but extremely situational abilities!

 Vector Strike wrote:

abyrn wrote:
Can any Ravenwing units take a relic blade?

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but the new relic just has the Relic Blade profile. You need a power sword to swap for it

That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying, I have not had a chance to look at the video. The formation appears to be very good.

Looks like I'll have to get Sammael, to go with my six black knights, talon master, dark shroud, and normal ravenwing bikers.

As expected, the points changes are hit and miss. GW isn't doing this as comprehensively as I'd like. For example, combat shields are now twice the cost of storm shields.

Let's avoid doom and gloom though. Are missile launchers ok at their new price, or are they still something to avoid?

I can't wait to try out an all DW list at my next friendly game. Looks like I'm going to be adding an entire unit and may still have some points spare.

Zustiur wrote:
As expected, the points changes are hit and miss. GW isn't doing this as comprehensively as I'd like. For example, combat shields are now twice the cost of storm shields.

Let's avoid doom and gloom though. Are missile launchers ok at their new price, or are they still something to avoid?

I can't wait to try out an all DW list at my next friendly game. Looks like I'm going to be adding an entire unit and may still have some points spare.

If your meta is filled with Fly stuff (not only flyers, but Xenos land vehicles, jump pack units, jetbikes, etc), ML devs + armorium cherub + flakk missile strat is a must (this alone might kill an exposed smashcaptain). Also, a lack of T8 stuff (knights, land raiders, etc) would also advocate the use of ML instead of LC


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Did a quick mathhammer here and, if I'm not mistaken, the new relic is better than Heavenfall Blade vs monsters/vehicles. Not that it'll kill Knights left and right, but every bit of help, well, helps

The difference between them is not even of 1 entire unsaved wound, though

I think the best part of the relic is that you can give it to one Talonmaster and give the Heavenfall blade to a second one


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are the points drops in landspeeders and the associated weapons enough to justify taking a squadron of them? Or is it still better to just take more talonmasters?