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 Gareth_Evans wrote:
I'm surprised more people don't mention the DA Librarian. On 6+ he can reduce BS by 1 (Aversion). On 7+ Mind wipe he can reduce BS and WS by 1 for the remained of the match. These also have a long range 18-24 unlike say null zone.

With Reavers and a Relicy and re-rolls the Libb has a very good chance of getting off Mind Wipe. Thus a top tier Knight is hitting on 5+, and 6+ if its degraded.

I've had some success with Aversion/Mind Wiping a knight. If you still have a dark shroud too it makes hitting some things impossible. Kinda cool, but Mind wipe isn't as easy to get off, but aversion certainly is.

That's my big issue at the moment we don't have a lot of solid options for dealing with Knights if we go mono Dex black Knights are target no1 if you go the Ravenwing route hellblasters are easy to stay out of there range predators with kill shoot are not to bad but you need to first as the stupid crutchstellan will easily kill 2 out of the 3

Mind Wipe is not reliable enough but Aversion is great for Knights and so many other targets.

As I've mentioned before, if you're willing to get allied help stack Aversion with a Space Wolves Rune Priest casting Tempest's Wrath for -2 to hit on something. You could even consider taking a Phobos Librarian with Hallucination for a potential -3 to hit without needing Mind Wipe to go off (and since Hallucination reduces Leadership, it makes Mind Wipe easier to land). It's a fair amount of points for what amounts to a funny gimmick, but being able to completely neuter a Castellan without having to try and shoot it down isn't a terrible idea.

Not really interested in adding allies.
Libby and darkshroud to reduce incoming, quick movers with lots of dakka, some troops for CP and ground control, then the final piece of the jigsaw....hitting power to take on knights.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not really interested in adding allies.
Libby and darkshroud to reduce incoming, quick movers with lots of dakka, some troops for CP and ground control, then the final piece of the jigsaw....hitting power to take on knights.

Given all that, what about something like this?

Air Wing Detachment
Dark Talon x3

Outrider Detachment
Talonmaster x1
Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators x2 (3 man units)
Ravenwing Bikers with 2 Plasma Guns and 1 Combi Plasma x2 (3 man units)
Dark Shroud

Battalion Detachment
Sammael in Sableclaw
Librarian on Bike (Aversion, Mind Wipe)
Scouts x3

Starting on 10 CP. Fair amount of shooting for hordes, plasma still feels a bit on the weak side for dealing with Knights, but the Librarian could help with that.

Yeah, that doesnt work vs knights. Plus I want Sammy, TM and DTs in the vigilus detachment.

 bullyboy wrote:
Yeah, that doesnt work vs knights. Plus I want Sammy, TM and DTs in the vigilus detachment.

You could run a single Battalion and get most of the things you want in one detachment for the Vigilus stratagem, but you'd only get up to 2 Dark Talons, which may be enough.
Without the extra DT, Inceptors and Bikers you have about 750pts to play with.

Yeah, so..

Sammy 216
TM 188
2 DTs 400
Shroud 138
6 Black Knights 228

1170pts, so 830pts left.

I would need to put my troop choices in the above to make a legal detachment, and then fill out with At options.

3 units of scouts bare minimum is 165.
Intercessors are pretty decent for sitting on objectives if they're in cover.

For AT, this is the tough part.
Venerable Dreads with Twin Las + Missile launcher are 140pts. Hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's if they don't move, 6+ FNP, and they don't degrade. No invulnerable save though and only 8 wounds.
Predators with all Lascannons for 180pts... no invlun, FNP and they degrade....
Not sure Hellblasters or Devastators are the right move without Azrael and maybe even a lieutenant nearby.

This is why i'm looking at some Plasma Inceptors to drop down. They're not going to kill a knight by themselves, unless you get really lucky. Maybe dropping down with a JP librarian to cast at least Aversion and possibly Mindwipe onto the target. If you'd bracket it and get 1 of those 2 abilities off it's already -2 at least. Of course they'll just use the strat to make it shoot at the top profile next turn.

Deathwing knights could be interesting if there were a reliable way to get them into CC without needing a transport.

I am looking at Deathwing knights and possibly making use of the reroll charge warlord trait (tough to give up Brilliant Strategist though). I am thinking that the ven Dread may have to be the way to go, simply because it's relatively cheap now.
As for troops, possibly 2x sniper scouts and 1 infiltrator (open up that zone for Ravenwing/Deathwing)

Sammay 216
TM 188
6 BK 228
shroud 138
2 DTs 400
5 scouts, sniper 65
5 scouts, sniper 65
5 infils 110

Libby term arm 112
5 DW knights, watcher 190
Ven dread 140
Ven Dread 140

67pts left

Not sold completely on the BKs though although with Signal the Attack, overcharging plasma is no worry at all.

 turmoil wrote:
3 units of scouts bare minimum is 165.
Intercessors are pretty decent for sitting on objectives if they're in cover.

For AT, this is the tough part.
Venerable Dreads with Twin Las + Missile launcher are 140pts. Hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's if they don't move, 6+ FNP, and they don't degrade. No invulnerable save though and only 8 wounds.
Predators with all Lascannons for 180pts... no invlun, FNP and they degrade....
Not sure Hellblasters or Devastators are the right move without Azrael and maybe even a lieutenant nearby.

This is why i'm looking at some Plasma Inceptors to drop down. They're not going to kill a knight by themselves, unless you get really lucky. Maybe dropping down with a JP librarian to cast at least Aversion and possibly Mindwipe onto the target. If you'd bracket it and get 1 of those 2 abilities off it's already -2 at least. Of course they'll just use the strat to make it shoot at the top profile next turn.

Deathwing knights could be interesting if there were a reliable way to get them into CC without needing a transport.

The strat allows the knight to shoot at the top profile. I'm not aware that it removes externally placed -1 to hit though.

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
The strat allows the knight to shoot at the top profile. I'm not aware that it removes externally placed -1 to hit though.

Ahh yes. The -1 will still be present, but that round of shooting, unless it kills the target, will basically be wasted for a turn.

Played a fun game today with a list that, at its core, was similar to yours. We are having a 1250 Supreme Commander tournament next month, and while family commitments prevent me from playing I enjoy the format and brought a list very similar to your core. I came to the store ready to play either 1250 against folks prepping or 2000 points. I played against a GSC/AM list at 2000 points today. He had two Leman Russ, three Sentinels and a bunch of infantry plus GSC units. My 2000 list was:

Battalion: (Ravenwing Attack Sqn)

Sammy in Sableclaw (Warlord)
Talonmaster
Librarian on a Bike
Dark Shroud
Dark Talon
Black Knights x 6
Intercessors x 5
Intercessors x 5
Scouts x 5
Deathwing Knights x 5

Spearhead

Lieutenant
Devastators (3 x Plasma Cannon)
Devastators (2 x Lascannon)
Devastators (2 x Missile Launcher)

We played Dawn of War with four objectives. I won the roll to go first but he seized. At the end of his shooting I had lost the Dark Shroud and the Dark Talon plus one Ravenwing Black Knight. The Black Knights killed a Leman Russ, while the Lascannon Devastators and Plasma Devastators killed the other. On his turn 2 his arriving Abberants wiped out my Black Knights. In return my fire wrote down his Abberents who were finished off by the arriving Deathwing Knights (who re-rolled their charge due to Sammy). The DW Knights then died to a counter-attack led by a Hammer-wielding brute. Those GSC units were gunned down in turn by Sammy and the Talonmaster who had two Intercessor squads as armour. The next two turns saw Sammy and the Talonmaster wipe out the rest of the enemy squads near the objectives while the Devastators took out the Sentinels.

I have found over the last year that a Talonmaster is better than a Dark Talon. The Talonmaster pumps out the firepower while staying safe behind non-character units. I think that they over-nerfed the Dark Talon last spring. The Rule of Three was all that was needed for the Dark Talon. The Black Knights made their points, I guess, and also functioned as a very expensive distraction Carnifex. I put the Deathwing Knights in for fun - they did OK in a match that did let them truly shine. The Plasma Devastators were effective. I will keep running them for now.

Have you thought about using infiltrators instead of intercessors to be a better shield for the speeder characters? I do like your list though.

 bullyboy wrote:
Have you thought about using infiltrators instead of intercessors to be a better shield for the speeder characters? I do like your list though.

Hadn't considered that - I just took a look at their stats/rules and they could absolutely help forming the pocket in which the Ravenwing Black Knights could operate! Black Knights really suffer if they don't get first turn and they lack true LOS blocking terrain. Even with such terrain, their short range can be a handicap even with Speed of the Raven. I find once they are rolling they can hope for 4++ saves but they do need something to keep chargers away. I've been using Scouts for that, but the durability and special rules of the Infiltrators looks appealing! I have been loving Intercessors with the Beta Bolter Rules as my back-field objective holders. I will juggle some points and see how Infiltrators work.

I am seeing Sammael and the Talonmaster(s) more and more as the true heavy-lifters in my list.

Cheers and good hunting,

T2B

Infiltrators cost too many points for what they bring. Being able to put Primaris Marines in no-man's land seems good, but they cost twice as much as Scouts and 5 points per model more than Intercessors, both of which are decent units. Now, against armies like GSC that love to use reserves to bring in the big nasties, the 12 inch bubble of NOPE! is very nice indeed. Problem is, most opponents will just kill them on the first turn and then deep strike normally on the second. Since they will be deployed forward most of the time, they'll be a fairly easy charge target for Orks or GSC or even Chaos melee units. I'm not mentioning the chance of them being shot off the board because presumably they will be hidden in ruins or something. If they cost less points, this wouldn't be that big of an issue, as it does cause some target priority problems for the opponent, but when you are losing that many points on them, it is less of a worthwhile trade.

All that being said, I suspect that GW will reduce their cost once they realize that nobody is playing them. I hope they do, as the models are awesome and they have decent rules. The only thing keeping them from competitive play is their high cost, which is why you still see Scouts and occasionally Intercessors being used instead.

Ravenwing Bikes are 1p over Infiltrators and are much better... I'd rather use Scouts as troops

 Vector Strike wrote:
Ravenwing Bikes are 1p over Infiltrators and are much better... I'd rather use Scouts as troops

God, it's sad when you look at it that way. Crazy.

Anyone thinking about squeezing in an Assassin for -1CP and 85 pts? It doesn't affect your best in faction points either.

 turmoil wrote:
Anyone thinking about squeezing in an Assassin for -1CP and 85 pts? It doesn't affect your best in faction points either.

I want to, but my current list is already so tight on points that I can't free up the 85 I need without gimping it. I'm probably going to try other lists as well and then I'll be able to run one.

I am going to be playing a game tomorrow, most likely against Imperial Soup list or maybe a gunline Ultramarine list. I am bringing:

Batallion
Termie Librarian
Termie Master

3 10 man tac squads with PG, PC and sgt with Combi Plas

3 Dev squads. 1 with 3 Las, 1 with 3 Missile and 1 with 2 Las and a Plasmacannon

Vanguard:
Belial
Deathwing Ancient
Deathwing Apothecary
Deathwing squad: 2 Assault Cannon and PF, 2 with Chainfist and SB, 5 SB and PF, Sgt with Power Sword and SB.

2000 points and 60 models with 6 cp.

Well, that didn't go well. Fought against an Imperial Soup list with 3 Knights, including a Castellan, the Loyal 32 and some Custodes with Trajan.

High point was that when my Deathwing squad landed they wiped out 2 full squads of Guardsmen and managed to weather the fire of the Custodes and 2 of the Knights. Only dropped 6 of them.

It is what it is. Not much I could have done against that level of cheese anyway.

I just had a game last night myself. I lost, but I learned some lessons and it's always good to get more reps in. My biggest bonehead play was deciding to supercharge my Black Knights' plasma on overwatch. Ended up losing almost half the squad to overheats. And then the rest got mowed down in close combat anyway (the final guy fled because of morale). I also have a bad habit of being too aggressive with my scout squads, and splitting up my guys too much.

Don't forget, Black Knights are Inner Circle and therefore fearless.

I have 2 three man bike squads with sgt's and power weapons. It has been running through my head to try and convert them into being Black Knights. Really only need the plasma bits from Ebay and I could do without any problems.

That is my first reaction though, which is usually incorrect. I was facing a list that is totally unique in what it does. Against any other list or even a Soup list with just the Castellan I think I would have performed much better.

The Ancient and the Apothecary didn't really earn their points to be honest. They were a hell of a distraction though. I could run a squad of 6 bikes with an attack bike MM in their place.

Any thoughts on that?

 Reivax26 wrote:
I have 2 three man bike squads with sgt's and power weapons. It has been running through my head to try and convert them into being Black Knights. Really only need the plasma bits from Ebay and I could do without any problems.

That is my first reaction though, which is usually incorrect. I was facing a list that is totally unique in what it does. Against any other list or even a Soup list with just the Castellan I think I would have performed much better.

The Ancient and the Apothecary didn't really earn their points to be honest. They were a hell of a distraction though. I could run a squad of 6 bikes with an attack bike MM in their place.

Any thoughts on that?

I think if you need some shooting the 6 bikes + attack bike could be good. If they were apart of the Ravenwing Attack Squad it could help cause a wound on something so you could use the +1 to hit strat for your other units in the squad.

I had somewhat fluffy game the other day against a primaris ultramarines army. He didn't really have much in the way of threats other than aggressors or hell blasters (no Bobby G). As always, the Talonmasters did the majority of the heavy lifting. -1 AP S5/6 and ignoring cover was invaluable. Both my Dark Talons more or less wiffed hard and then got shot down from the hell blasters. I got to use the plasma inceptors. They did their job. Drop down. Delete something. Get deleted the next turn. They're not bad, I just wish they weren't so expensive and could synergize better with the ravenwing.

Still not sure if I want to even try mono-DA competitively. Talonmasters and Sammael are great. Dark Talons can be alright depending on who you're playing. Black Knights can also be great, but are just a bit too expensive.

I am tempted to pick up a Dark Talon. I keep hearing mixed reviews about it. Would be simpler to just get the bits and convert my bikes to be Knights.

Could field a 5 man squad of them for about the same points as the Ancient and the Apothecary.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am going to be playing a game tomorrow, most likely against Imperial Soup list or maybe a gunline Ultramarine list. I am bringing:

Batallion
Termie Librarian
Termie Master

3 10 man tac squads with PG, PC and sgt with Combi Plas

3 Dev squads. 1 with 3 Las, 1 with 3 Missile and 1 with 2 Las and a Plasmacannon

Vanguard:
Belial
Deathwing Ancient
Deathwing Apothecary
Deathwing squad: 2 Assault Cannon and PF, 2 with Chainfist and SB, 5 SB and PF, Sgt with Power Sword and SB.

2000 points and 60 models with 6 cp.

Unfortunately, this list does have some glaring weaknesses.
I would certainly drop the Ancient and Apothecary, plus the termie master.

tactical sqds are a little but meh for my tastes, but if you do decide to keep them I would switch out the hvy weapons. Go 3 5 man sqds with a lascannon and then put your 4 plasmacannons in the dev sqd (with afew ablative bodies). If you want a mobile tac sqd, just keep the plasma gun and combi, dropping the heavies.

So that would start with...

Belial
Terminator Librarian
10 terminators as you've got already.
3x5 tac with lascannon
8 dev marines, 4 plasma cannons

See what you can add from there.

As for the Black Knights, I wouldn't add these until you decide to go all in with the Ravenwing (Sammael, Talon Master, darkshroud).

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am tempted to pick up a Dark Talon. I keep hearing mixed reviews about it. Would be simpler to just get the bits and convert my bikes to be Knights.

Could field a 5 man squad of them for about the same points as the Ancient and the Apothecary.

Black Knights are a unit I used to not like very much, but I'm definitely warming up to them now. The Ravenwing Attack Squadron from the first Vigilus book adds some shenanigans that they can do. The Ancient and Apothecary are not worth their points honestly. Black Knights do have a decent CC weapon, but they generally don't want to actually be in CC very much, so giving them more attacks is not a big deal. And one more attack on Sammy or a Talonmaster isn't that useful either (or rather it is, but it's not worth spending that many points on an Ancient).

As for a Dark Talon, you should absolutely get one. I run two of them in my lists nowadays, and they are GOD TIER. I kid you not, they do work for me in just about every single game. Even if they get taken down early, they get stuff done, or absorb fire that would otherwise get put into your bikes and stuff.