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LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!

I sposse Sammael will get a fixed WT

I think I could get behind some plasma devs. I don't feel like that's a huge improvement over twin lascannon Mortis dreads, but it's a nice gimmick to blow some command points on, if you've got them. You'll probably have able to take down something big in a round of shooting, at least.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 ILegion wrote:
Does the variable amount of shots for plasma devs not put anyone off from using them over hellblasters?

No. Plasma cannon's D3 shots is 21 points. The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is only 1 shot for 17 points (should be cheaper) tho it does have +1 strength and -1 AP.

Damn. I don't have enough plasma cannons.

LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!

Even IF Sammael actually has that warlord trait, which you don't get to pick it, any character with that many wounds has some sort of invul save. That warlord trait is not very good at all imo.

I'm betting Azreal has the brilliant strategist WT. Belial usually has some terrible hunt the warlord trait, so maybe he'll have it to use with his storm bolter. :(

Plus it does not allow his cannon to use it, just the stormbolters. Combi melta seems like a good option, but on which character.

Hi guys, I might be interested in joining the Dark Angel ranks if their codex is good (and especially if GW doesn't boost AdMech somehow), but I have a few questions as I have never ever played a SM army.

What is the general playstyle of the army ? More shooty, more slashy ? Static, mobile ? I guess you can do anything considering their wide range of models, but do they have a special gimmick they do really well ? I'd be interested in building a list around heavy infantry (like Hellblasters) supporting assault units like Terminators, while having a few Librarians to deny and support my army.

Are there units to disregard completely in the index/SM codex currently ? I know the DA codex might change some stuff, but for now what do you feel should get a change ? I'm not looking to play the most optimised lists for tournaments, but my meta has shifted into pretty brutal army compositions lately and I'd like to play a fluffy but strong list. What's the differences between regular Terminators and Deathwing, is their price difference worth it (I guess they have different prices) ? Also, I heavily dislike Fliers so I hope I won't handicap myself if I don't pick some. Talking about big stuff like Stormravens, not Land Speeders, which are fine.

How have you been faring with your Dark Angels armies now that 8th edition is well established ?

Thanks in advance !

Dark Angels are way more shooty than choppy; Deathwing Knights makes most of DA melee power, while there are some good melee characters (Sammael, Interrogator-Chaplain). With Grim Resolve, it certainly makes one wonder if not going ranged-focused with DA would be a good move...

DA has 3 big things going for them: Greenwing (normal marines, pretty static normally or going in transports for speed), Ravenwing (bikes and planes, mobile is their game!) and Deathwing (deep strike and land raiders). So you can focus on RAvenwing to get a more mobile army, Greenwing to get gunlines or Deathwing to be precise on your killing. I'd wager having at least 2 of those ways are the best (Ravenwing + Deathwing is pretty popular).

Their special gimmick is having more plasma than any other army in the game (well, perhaps Tau can rival them with a heavy-suit list). Also, having the coolest marine models!
Models to disregard... I think everything is useable, but Asmodai and normal Terminators are generally not really used.

DA, for now, can't even use Stormravens, so no big deal. Nephelim Jetfighter and Dark Talon, DA's exclusive fliers, are somewhat good, but you don't really need them.

What about redemptor plasma? Im a wolf player and dont have/use it?

bobafett012 wrote:

LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!

Even IF Sammael actually has that warlord trait, which you don't get to pick it, any character with that many wounds has some sort of invul save. That warlord trait is not very good at all imo.

I'm betting Azreal has the brilliant strategist WT. Belial usually has some terrible hunt the warlord trait, so maybe he'll have it to use with his storm bolter. :(

Warlorld trait doesn't allow sniping with heavy weapons. So no heavy plasma sniping with Sammy. I double checked after thinking about a Chap Dreadnought sniping with twin lascannons.

Asmodai belongs in every Land Raider

 ILegion wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

 ILegion wrote:
Does the variable amount of shots for plasma devs not put anyone off from using them over hellblasters?

No. Plasma cannon's D3 shots is 21 points. The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is only 1 shot for 17 points (should be cheaper) tho it does have +1 strength and -1 AP.

Damn. I don't have enough plasma cannons.

I've got the cannons as leftover parts from building a couple of Devastator squads. What I need are more marine bodies to carry them (just the legs actually, I've got torsos and stuff to spare). Technically I could use some leftover kneeling legs, but I don't think that would look very good on Plasma Cannons.

How do you guys feel about using cataphractii orntartaros terminators over our standard terminators and/or knights? More thoughts later when I'm not chasing an infant, but both the new options seem inferior to what we already have. I'm just checking to see if I'm missing some obvious big selling point.

there is absolutely no comparison between either suit's CC variants VS Knights. They are far superior in their role than either suit in CC.

As for regular Terminators vs the 2 suit varieties. there's not a ton of difference. Stat wise, one suit has 1 better invul but only moves 4", the other moves 6" but has the same 5+ invul as the regular suits. The new suits can take some plasma weapon on the sgt, but they are limited to 2 different types of heavy weapons, one being the heavy flamer which isn't very good, other being the reaper auto cannon. I personally like Assault cannons, and cyclones much better than those, plus I like the aesthetic better as well so it's a very easy choice for me.


Also, first review video up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M

MilkmanAl wrote:
How do you guys feel about using cataphractii orntartaros terminators over our standard terminators and/or knights? More thoughts later when I'm not chasing an infant, but both the new options seem inferior to what we already have. I'm just checking to see if I'm missing some obvious big selling point.

I'm already thinking of running 4 squads of DW in my list, 1 of Knights and 3 shooty ones, together with Belial. One of the shooty squads will be Tartaros as that's what I have model-wise. I'm going to give the Sarge the plasma blaster for some good armor penetration that combos well with Belial's rerolls. I'll probably keep the Knights in a Land Raider, as it'll help balance out the list as far as who is in reserves, plus Knights don't do so well if they fail their 9" charge out of DS (way too easy to just kite them, found that out the hard way once). With the price drops on power fists and Terminators in general, it'll be easier to take multiple DW squads, or larger ones if that floats your boat.

I think bobafett012 is right about Assault Cannons being better than the Reaper Autocannon, though. Reapers do have a couple of (admittedly small) advantages to try to balance out the disadvantages, though, namely longer range and slightly lower price. The range won't matter on a teleporting unit, and the price difference is very small (4 points IIRC), so AssCans are better since they have more shots.

Well, I didn't get back to my original post as quickly as I thought I might, and you guys have basically echoed my thoughts exactly. Plasma on the sarge is really the only thing that'd make me consider Tartaros at all. The extra movement is negligible, and the weapons are otherwise inferior, overall. Cataphractii are basically just inferior to knights, and I'd much rather have the other heavy weapons over a heavy flamer, if that's your gig. Glad I wasn't missing something!

So, I just saw the review that guy put on YouTube, and I'm having good feelings about Dark Angels now. Only downside is I don't have some of the models that we now have access to, like Stormravens. Not a great example as Stormravens are a pale shadow of what they once were thanks to CA increasing their cost.

With the stratagem to let units fall back and shoot, maybe Land Raiders could be good. Opposing hordes are no longer safe just by having an Ork Boy/Termagant/Genestealer/other gribbly tag a fender on the Crusader. Of course, I'm wanting to try out the Repulsor, so it won't even need the strat, but it's there. Still, Land Raiders make a good delivery platform for the still-excellent Deathwing Knights, as in a Crusader you can put a unit of 5 of those guys, plus Asmodai and a Deathwing Ancient for perhaps one of the nastiest melee units in the game. Khorne Berzerkers got nothin' on these guys. With the buff from both the Ancient and Asmodai, the Maces are rocking 4 attacks apiece, with rerolls to hit. If a Lieutenant accompanies them as well, they are rerolling 1's to wound, so even big things like Shadowswords or Imperial Knights are in trouble. Hordes don't have it any easier vs. all this, as the Knight Master gets 5 swings whose damage carries over. Now I know this is expensive (300+ for the vehicle, plus around 500 for the guys), so it won't be practical in a lot of lists, but I'm already thinking about trying it just for the lolz.

Definitely considering switching to Dark Angels from my AdMech now. I'll have a look at the codex on wednesday if everything goes fine. What are your best Troops choices when building a DA army ? I guess Scouts are the most efficient ? Given they'll be the only ones with ObSec, should I make sure they don't get slaughtered easily via their loadout or a specific tactic/transport ? Shotguns don't look like they're worth it, and Sniper rifles won't get them near an objective. Or I could use Snipers to camp objectives my side of the board, and just try to annihilate whatever guards the other objectives with my DW and Hellblasters.

Thinkin of running 2-3 Librarians (maybe one in Terminator armour), Deathwing Knights, 10 Hellblasters, a few Scout squads to fill up Troops tax, some RW bikes to have a fast, mobile threat. What's the consensus about Land Speeders ? Having Fly might be nice to have. Also, should I run any vehicles ? I mean Rhinos, Predators, Razorbacks and the likes ? I don't like their models that much, maybe the Predator is the less ugly of them. Not really a fan of the original Dreadnoughts neither. I feel like there's nothing a vehicle can accomplish that a specialised infantry unit cannot. Maybe just the range of the Lascannons ? Hellblasters have a decent range.

EDIT: Also, I plan on painting them as a successor chapter, but not sure if I should include any of the named characters given that. Do I pretend that DW guy is just as equally powerful as Belial or it would be too weird using named characters rules for a successor chapter ?

If taking scouts, either go all snipers and backfield camp, or go chainswords/pistol and infiltrate midfield to slow down the enemy advance.

If taking snipers, take a midrange durable force for the rest of your army.

If melee scouts, take a gunline DA force.

 Aaranis wrote:

EDIT: Also, I plan on painting them as a successor chapter, but not sure if I should include any of the named characters given that. Do I pretend that DW guy is just as equally powerful as Belial or it would be too weird using named characters rules for a successor chapter ?

Well, considering it's impossible to run a generic Chapter Master of a successor chapter, and you basically have to use Azzy as a stand in, I don't think anyone is going to bat an eye at using Belial or Sammael as your DW or RW Company Masters.

 Aaranis wrote:
Definitely considering switching to Dark Angels from my AdMech now.

I plan to play half AdMech and half Dark Angels, at least sometimes. Robots in the back, Ravenwing and/or Deathwing up front.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

EDIT: Also, I plan on painting them as a successor chapter, but not sure if I should include any of the named characters given that. Do I pretend that DW guy is just as equally powerful as Belial or it would be too weird using named characters rules for a successor chapter ?

Well, considering it's impossible to run a generic Chapter Master of a successor chapter, and you basically have to use Azzy as a stand in, I don't think anyone is going to bat an eye at using Belial or Sammael as your DW or RW Company Masters.

Yeah, when I run sucessors chapters I don't change the chapter keyword for the one of my successor. That dissallow me from using special character without receiving anything in exchange. So I just use the parent chapter rules but I say they are my custom chapter.

I have a small Ravenguard Successor force where I use ultramarine rules so I can run Telion as the Scout HQ leader of my forces.

 bullyboy wrote:
Plus it does not allow his cannon to use it, just the stormbolters. Combi melta seems like a good option, but on which character.

Damn, I thought I was the first person to notice that. You beat me by a few hours. The answer to your question is Company Masters, because of the 2+ to hit.


I've begun a detailed tactica review of the book and I don't even have it yet. I've spent most of the time with the index having glazed eyes because of our units being scattered. When I get the codex I'll go through all the units carefully to identify all the synergistic options I've been missing so far.

Here's a snippet of my work in progress:
Huntsman
This is a clever little option, and may quickly become my favourite. At least, when using Company Masters and their 2+ BS.
Pistols, assault, rapid fire, grenades. Of these categories, there are obviously better and worse weapons to pick for utilising the sniper part of the rule. Specifically;
Pistols: Plasma and grav are the obvious choices. Neither is really 'good' for this trait however. Grav would be my choice, but then you're only doing 1 damage. I feel overcharging plasma is just too risky on my warlord. Yes, it's generally going to be a 1 in 36 chance of failing, but SLAIN is too much to risk unless you're on your last wound anyway or are otherwise doomed in your opponent's next turn.
Assault: Sniping with a combi flamer might make for a good laugh, and may have the added bonus of making your opponent's brain implode as they imagine how that even works. Combi-Melta on the other hand is WHERE IT'S AT. Sniping with a meltagun folks. Just think about that for a moment. Wounding most characters on 2s. AP-4.
Rapid Fire: Storm bolters aren't a terrible choice for this, but aren't all that exciting either. Combi grav makes for the best option if you want to fire the bolter component as well. Combi plasma will again tempt you to risk SLAIN on your Warlord and give your opponent a free VP. Bolters by themselves aren't impressive here, even when they are master crafted or are bolt rifles. The winner in this category has to be Foe Smiter.
Grenades: If only we could have melta bombs on HQ these days???????Need to check this??????????. But then, if you're within 4", or even 6", you're probably able to target the character anyway.

The assault component is also interesting, and it really shines for Belial with his blade Silence. I've yet to see how often piling in and consolidating towards a character will be useful, but it definitely has potential.

To take full advantage of this, I strongly suggest a dedicated Character killing HQ. Jump Pack or Terminator Armour (as you see fit) to get the Deep Strike. I prefer the jump pack, as you can drop behind LOS blocking cover and charge the following turn for a guaranteed charge after moving 12" and ignoring terrain. Protecting your warlord is important. Leaving him stranded after a failed 9 or more inch charge is on my 'never do' list. Take a Combi-melta, for that 35/36 * 5/6 * chance of failing invulnerable save. Against characters with no 2+ armour and no invulnerable, you've got an 81% chance of dealing D6 wounds. Throw in a relic blade or Relic such as the Heavenfall blade. If you don't kill them with the gun, jump over their screen on the charge and cut them down. Force weapons may not be a bad option here too.

Sammeal has the Maneuver Warlord Trait fixed so he can't take Huntsman but does allow re-rolling advance and charge rolls within 6". This is pretty clearly one of the best two Warlord Traits next to Azreal's fixed Brilliant Strategist.

As i said in another thread, my reading on the Dark Angels is that they are the first army designed to make the most out of combined arms.

Theyr main power comes from stratagems (fitting the DA theme nicely), which is a double edged sword. On one hand it means that you cannot spam the most efficent unit and be done with it, since only one of those units will be good, on the other hand it means that that single unit will be worth much more that what it's price tag says.

Ravenwing is made really strong by Speed of the Raven, and just one plasma unit can carry a lot of load thanks to Weapon of the Dark Age.

This means that an assault DA list full DW will not be competitive, neither will a full RW or full shooty greenwing. Instead, lists that make efficent use of all 3 of them will be among the hardest lists to play, but also capable of top table performance.
The DA codex is not focused on out-shooting, or out-meleeing your opponents. It is focused on outplaying (and punishing Fallens).

This means that an assault DA list full DW will not be competitive, neither will a full RW or full shooty greenwing. Instead, lists that make efficent use of all 3 of them will be among the hardest lists to play, but also capable of top table performance.
The DA codex is not focused on out-shooting, or out-meleeing your opponents. It is focused on outplaying (and punishing Fallens).

Seconded.
Synergy is key when you play DA. It has always been.

Right, so on that note, I play pretty much pure Deathwing. I'm considering the merits of the new Deathwing Assault strategem. I'm disappointed it doesn't let us deep strike into combat more reliably, but an extra round of shooting seems pretty useful for clearing away screening troops before Knights Drop in close to the real target.

The problem is the 2/3 CP cost. Since I have so few units, my CP are in short supply - usually 5 with the lists I've been running recently. I like the idea of dropping in a unit of 10 terminators in to clear away the nonsense surrounding a prime target. 8 stormbolters at rapid fire range and 2 assault cannons is a fair bit of firepower (kills about 18 GEQ or 7 MEQ), but is that worth 3 CP? I run a couple units of Knights, so I intend to be shield walling a fair bit. Obviously that ability will be in short supply after spending 3 of my 5 CP on the initial drop. I'm going to give it a few tries, of course, but I can't decide right now if that impressive drop is worth giving up shield wall and choice die rerolls for most of the game.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Right, so on that note, I play pretty much pure Deathwing. I'm considering the merits of the new Deathwing Assault strategem. I'm disappointed it doesn't let us deep strike into combat more reliably, but an extra round of shooting seems pretty useful for clearing away screening troops before Knights Drop in close to the real target.

The problem is the 2/3 CP cost. Since I have so few units, my CP are in short supply - usually 5 with the lists I've been running recently. I like the idea of dropping in a unit of 10 terminators in to clear away the nonsense surrounding a prime target. 8 stormbolters at rapid fire range and 2 assault cannons is a fair bit of firepower (kills about 18 GEQ or 7 MEQ), but is that worth 3 CP? I run a couple units of Knights, so I intend to be shield walling a fair bit. Obviously that ability will be in short supply after spending 3 of my 5 CP on the initial drop. I'm going to give it a few tries, of course, but I can't decide right now if that impressive drop is worth giving up shield wall and choice die rerolls for most of the game.

Count always 1 more cp for hunt the fallen. For a DW list is priceless to reroll charges.

That's true. I don't love the idea of giving an opposing character an extra attack, but guaranteed hit and charge rerolls is tough to ignore for 1cp.

 wuestenfux wrote:

This means that an assault DA list full DW will not be competitive, neither will a full RW or full shooty greenwing. Instead, lists that make efficent use of all 3 of them will be among the hardest lists to play, but also capable of top table performance.
The DA codex is not focused on out-shooting, or out-meleeing your opponents. It is focused on outplaying (and punishing Fallens).

Seconded.
Synergy is key when you play DA. It has always been.

for example guiding our dw with rw teleport homers. oh wait....

any info on landspeeder points?

MilkmanAl wrote:
That's true. I don't love the idea of giving an opposing character an extra attack, but guaranteed hit and charge rerolls is tough to ignore for 1cp.

Hit rerolls will rarely matter, but remember that you just need him to have a commissar/lieutenent/farseer/whatever in there, you tag him and say that he is among the targets that you are charging. You get to reroll even if in the end you are not charging him.