Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
If you are just taking Deathwing Knights then an Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armour can fit the bill since he gives them the rerolls for the Fight Phase. If I am taking Deathwing Terminators, though, I always take Belial. His shooting buff makes the arrival of the force painful for the enemy (using the Deathwing Assault Stratagem as appropriate), and he can carve a bloody swath through the enemy on his own with his sword. Since he also gives reroll misses in the Fight Phase he buffs the Knights as well as long you keep things synchronized. I've been trying to have two buffing characters in my Deathwing Vanguards for that reason. It doubles down on the cost, but I think I need to. A Librarian in Terminator Armour can also be useful - I've been trying one out. He gives some extra protection against Smite (in addition to the Watchers), while Righteous Repugnance (risky but potent) can let the Knights do their thing even if the support Character fails a charge roll or needs to be smashing something else in the face. Sometimes he even kills something!
Cheers
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2018/01/04 17:23:39
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
Huh, so Dark Angels Intercessor Sergeants can now take power swords. Think that’s a divergence or will codex compliant marines get errata’d to be able to use them, too?
Either way, it’s one step closer to Intercessors replacing Tacticals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 17:24:00
2018/01/04 19:20:56
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
[EDIT] I just checked, the Codex: Space Marine Intercessor dataslate says the sergeant may take a power sword too, even tho the Intercessor box does not include a power sword bit. And Blood Angels get a chainsword. I bet Space Wolves will get a blood frost axe of the wolf or something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 19:35:09
Aeri wrote: I began a unit rating for myself, but might aswell post it to open the discussion.
I didn't rate every unit, because I just dont have all of them and therefore dont care.
HQ:
Azrael: A+ [No explanation needed I guess. Great to keep Devs/Hellblasters alive]
Asmodai: A- [Great DWK Force Multiplier, but no Teleport Strike. Relies on riding a Landraider with a unit of DWK. Also works great with Company Veterans geared for melee.]
Sammael: A+ [Swift and deadly. Great Support for Black Knights and other Ravenwing units aswell. Can assault flyers with his S8 sword making him super versatile.]
Belial: B [Great Deathwing Multiplier and Combat beast, but suffers from the same problem every melee buff character has - he might not make the charge to support his unit.]
Interrogator Chaplain: C+ [Very expensive compared to a chaplain. The extra -1 to morale is rarely worth it. Pick a chaplain or Asmodai instead.]
Chaplain: B- [Good Melee Buff. When used in Terminator Armour to deep strike with terminators you have a high chance of him not making the charge and therefore not beeing able to buff the charging units. Works great in a transport though.]
Librarians C [Don't like our Powers, so librarians mostly don't see the board anymore.]
Troops:
Scouts: A- [Cheap and very versatile troop choice. Great to take objectives early on and harass/charge shooty units.]
Tactical Squad: B [The same solid troop choice as ever. Sturdy, can take many different weapons and are very flexible. Kind of expensive though, since our best units are super pricey. Need a Razorback or Rhino for best effectiveness or are doomed as a backline place and forget unit.]
Elite:
Deathwing Knights: A- [Pure deadlyness. Even better with Asmodai and a Deahwing Ancient. May get stuck if your Landraider blows early though. Darkshroud helps a lot to prevent this.]
Deathwing Terminators: C [Price and outshined in melee by DWK. For shooting there are better choices. Great to harass a backfield unit though and soak up enemy fire. If left alone they can hurt quite badly, so the enemy HAS to deal with them.]
Dreadnoughts: B+ [As Rifledreads a very solid choice, specially with our new reroll 1s. No degrading aswell. I prefer 2 with Twin Las/Twin Autocannon in my force.]
Venerable Dreadnoughts: A [Very potent backfield heavy weapon plattforms. BS2+ and reroll 1s almost guarantees hits. And they come with a 6+ FNP for extra toughness. worth the 20P upgrade!]
Fast Attack: Black Knights: A [Some of our best units. Deadly. Fast. Reliable. With Weapons of the Dark Age also super deadly. 6 can kill a Monolith in 1 shooting phase. They are also small enough to evade enemy fire if placed carefully. In melee they are "ok". Not as great as they used to be, but can still pack a punch with sammy and/or an ancient. Very expensive though.]
Ravenwing Bikes C- [Very expensive for what they bring to the field. Mediocre in melee, mediocre in shooting. I see little reason to field these guys.]
Darkshroud A [Great defensive tool. Let it protect the backfield, your transports or your bikes. It makes your units a lot tougher for very little points. Don't bother with weapon upgrades, it's not there to shoot stuff.]
Land Speeders B- [Very expensive, but versatile. Best used stationary because of their heavy weapons, and this is exactly where they are outshined by Dreadnoughts.]
Heavy Support: Devastators B+ [Superb Heavy hitters for your backline. With rerolls to 1s and our Plasma Stratagem they can really hurt stuff for reasonable points. Add Azrael or other buff units to make them even better. Might die quite easily though, since the unit is just 5 Marines.]
Predators A- [Tough and can hurt a lot. Best used with Predator Auto Cannon and Las Cannon sponsons. Other than Ven Dreads they lose BS when taking damage, making them less effective the longer the battle lasts.]
Landspeeder Vengeance D [Nopes. Just don't]
Land Raider Redeemer A- [Love this thing with DWK in it. The flamers are also great to kill flyers and other hard to hit stuff. Creates a nice threat bubble, but is kinda slow. Also can leave combat due to our new stratagem, eliminating one of the greatest weaknesses of landraiders. But who would want to charge this thing anyways?]
Land Raider Crusader B+ [Greater transport capacity, but less dmg output. IMHO the Darkshroud is better to take the anti horde role.]
Flyers: Nephilim Jetfighter: B+ [Great damage output and survivability. Can get kinda expensive though. Still a solid choice.]
Dark Talon: A- [One of our best anti horde tools. Cheap, tough and reliable. BF2+ hurricane bolters can get stuff done. The rift canon is a great addition to take on heavier targets. The stasis bomb is a 1 time gimmick - a good one.]
So here are my ratings for what I have played
HQ Sammael in sable claw - A+ Great in shooting, super mobile hands out some good buffs. Great in the assault, especially on the charge. If you are not running a gunline he is out best HQ Also very durable between T6 7 wounds and character protections. Combos well with scouts.
Talonmaster - B+ provides good buffs, if he takes the Heavenfall blade relic he is good in combat, good in shooting but really needs Sammi (or some other Master) for re-rolls due to hitting on a 4+ most of the time. If you are only taking 1 landspeeder HQ take sammi he is worth the extra points.
Master - B good all around, usually used with a Jump pack for the re-rolls 1 to hit buff. Consider if bringing inceptors.
Lieutenant - B good all around, usually used with a Jump pack for the re-rolls 1 buff. Consider if bringing inceptors, Master is more important though. A good cheap inclusion in an Azzy gunline though.
Azreal - A+ he is not an auto include, but will make most gunline builds. If you are bringing Helblasters he is going to come along.
Troops
Scouts - A - Best troop in the book and it isn't close. The provide alpha strike protection, can claim midfield objectives, and with the CA character rules change are a good pick for denying shooting targeting your Landspeeder borne HQ choices
Tacticals - C- - I really don't see why you would take them over scouts, but they are not terrible. I guess plasma + combi-plasma in a Razorback is an ok load out. I don't think any other build is worth bothering.
Intercessors - B - They are ok, they don't benefit as much from out tactics as other units or in other factions. They are not a bad pick, but with a lot of our other stuff being pricey it can be hard to fit in expensive troops as well.
Elites
DW terminators - C- So so, the DWA stratagem is too many CP, and you won't have many if you run a big terminator squad to take advantage of it. Terminators are just not that great this edition, and they don't really fill a role in most DA builds.
Fast Attack
RW black knights - C+ Not a big fan here, they are ok, but I think they are too expensive for their durability and we have other good plasma units. They are an obvious target for most players. I do think if you use them it is go big or go home. 3 man squads are bad when compared to plasma bikers.
RW bikes - B+ - good all around unit, brings a lot of shooting on a fast platform, bolters + plasma makes them dangerous to many different types of units.
Scout bikes - B+ - among the best units for anti-infantry, super fast, tons of shooting, can do mortal wounds when they fall back out of combat. Most people underestimate them, but I think that won't last. If they were RW they would be an A+ unit. Honestly if you want to take them doing it by allying in marines is the way to go. I've run them both as DA and White Scars and doing white scars lets you double up on Advance + shoot + charge stratagems to jump on your opponent.
Inceptors - A+ - with plasma they are the best target we have for WOTDA, expect them to die, but they will kill something on the drop (sometimes more than 1 thing.)
Heavy Support
Helblasters - A - effective with Azreal, but I honestly think they work better in other chapters to some extent, they want to be at half range to get the most of their shooting, and are not all that fast. They are great, but not my favorite in the codex.
How do you use your Scouts to "claim midfield objectives" ? It seems obvious that they are going to die extra-fast and so I don't see their use as objective cappers, at least in the 1st turn.
Aaranis wrote: How do you use your Scouts to "claim midfield objectives" ? It seems obvious that they are going to die extra-fast and so I don't see their use as objective cappers, at least in the 1st turn.
If your running RW or DW, the scouts should be the least of your opponents worries and they should be concentrating fire on the units that can actually kill them.
Hmm, not quite convinced by my experience, it doesn't take much to kill 5 Scouts. A dedicated unit who intend to claim the same objective should wipe them up, or just some anti-MEQ weapons from vehicles. Maybe I'm just playing wrong though
Automatically Appended Next Post: When list building, do you tend to focus on one Wing with support from the others, or do you try to have an even quantity of each Wing ? I tend to always build my lists to be TAC as possible but in this edition it just means I can't do anything well enough, I always suffer from not enough anti-tank, not enough fast units and such. Another problem for me is I tend to want to optimise each Wing to form a little Deathstar each time, like when I write a theoretical list, I wouldn't think to include Deathwing Knights without at least an Ancient and Belial/Chaplain for rerolls. Same for Ravenwing, I'd immediately pick Sammael for rerolls and the Darkshroud for -1 to Hit for full optimisation. Or Azrael for Hellblasters... So I end up with expensive little Deathstars with too little numbers and no real place in the list for secondary units like Troops, or a Dreadnought and such.
Should I pick a Wing and build around it ? It would be hard for me not to include at least a min squad of Knights, and impossible not to support them with an Ancient and someone to give them rerolls like Belial or a Librarian. But I'm interested in the Ravenwing stuff, especially an all-flying Ravenwing with Land Speeders, Talon Master and a Dark Talon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/05 00:10:35
Aaranis wrote: How do you use your Scouts to "claim midfield objectives" ? It seems obvious that they are going to die extra-fast and so I don't see their use as objective cappers, at least in the 1st turn.
If your running RW or DW, the scouts should be the least of your opponents worries and they should be concentrating fire on the units that can actually kill them.
Basically this I tend to push into my opponent and keep scouts out of LOS. Sure my opponent can try to send stuff to kill 5 scouts, but doing that either means they are not killing bikes or inceptors, or that the unit they sent to do it dies to those units. That said sure they can die but so do the rest of our troops most of which have issue getting to objectives in the midfield in the first place.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In my last tournament I never lost more than 1 of my scout squads in 3 games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/05 01:07:47
Automatically Appended Next Post: When list building, do you tend to focus on one Wing with support from the others, or do you try to have an even quantity of each Wing ? I tend to always build my lists to be TAC as possible but in this edition it just means I can't do anything well enough, I always suffer from not enough anti-tank, not enough fast units and such. Another problem for me is I tend to want to optimise each Wing to form a little Deathstar each time, like when I write a theoretical list, I wouldn't think to include Deathwing Knights without at least an Ancient and Belial/Chaplain for rerolls. Same for Ravenwing, I'd immediately pick Sammael for rerolls and the Darkshroud for -1 to Hit for full optimisation. Or Azrael for Hellblasters... So I end up with expensive little Deathstars with too little numbers and no real place in the list for secondary units like Troops, or a Dreadnought and such.
Should I pick a Wing and build around it ? It would be hard for me not to include at least a min squad of Knights, and impossible not to support them with an Ancient and someone to give them rerolls like Belial or a Librarian. But I'm interested in the Ravenwing stuff, especially an all-flying Ravenwing with Land Speeders, Talon Master and a Dark Talon.
Pick one and use the rest of the army to support it. If you try to do an even mix you dilute everything to the point of being ineffective IMO. I've gone heavily on Greenwing because they benefit the most from the Chapter Tactics, and bring 2-3 Ravenwing units to support them. The army ends up being 75% Greenwing and 25% Ravenwing. So far I'm mostly happy with it, but it still feels like it's missing something from a flavor standpoint.
I've written lists that were Green and Deathwing, but I prefer the speed of the boys in black. Trying to use all 3 at once led me to taking too many HQ's, not because I needed them for detachments, but because I wanted to buff all my assorted strike groups. Too top heavy, not enough boots and tracks on the ground for my liking.
When list building, do you tend to focus on one Wing with support from the others, or do you try to have an even quantity of each Wing ? I tend to always build my lists to be TAC as possible but in this edition it just means I can't do anything well enough, I always suffer from not enough anti-tank, not enough fast units and such. Another problem for me is I tend to want to optimise each Wing to form a little Deathstar each time, like when I write a theoretical list, I wouldn't think to include Deathwing Knights without at least an Ancient and Belial/Chaplain for rerolls. Same for Ravenwing, I'd immediately pick Sammael for rerolls and the Darkshroud for -1 to Hit for full optimisation. Or Azrael for Hellblasters... So I end up with expensive little Deathstars with too little numbers and no real place in the list for secondary units like Troops, or a Dreadnought and such.
Should I pick a Wing and build around it ? It would be hard for me not to include at least a min squad of Knights, and impossible not to support them with an Ancient and someone to give them rerolls like Belial or a Librarian. But I'm interested in the Ravenwing stuff, especially an all-flying Ravenwing with Land Speeders, Talon Master and a Dark Talon.
I can't speak to all those questions as I pretty much play pure Deathwing with 3 ravenwing flyers for support, but surprisingly it's very effective. Placed 3rd in an 11 man GT the other weekend with it.
So what I can speak to is DW Knights. Belial isn't necessary if you just want to run a squad of Knights perse, yeah his re-rolls are good and he's a beast against enemy characters, but half of his re-roll ability is wasted on Knights since they don't shoot, so you could easily go with other characters that can do the same thing but are a touch cheaper. As you said, a libby with righteous repugnance and aversion is sick. Interrogator Chaplain gives them the CC re-rolls they need, or the ancient with TH/SS for the extra attacks and a nice CC character. I bring 1 squad in every DW list of mine and DS them in, but with charging off DS being such a little chance, they really need a delivery system. I've tried making the character that follows them around the WL and making him master of maneuver but even still, that's only a 50/50 chance to make that charge. Storm raven or crusader are the best rides but that's a large point sink.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/05 06:29:41
Thanks for the insight everyone. Currently I play a Deathwing Detachment in my Mechanicus lists as I don't have enough models to build a proper 2000 pts army. I think I'll go with 2x5 Intercessors and 1 Scout squad for troops, so as to have always a tougher option depending on the terrain configuration. I'll also focus on almost mono-build lists in the future. As you said, the problem for the Knights is their delivery system, you either DS them unreliably or you end up with a transport as expensive as the Knights. I tried yesterday playing with an Ancient as my Warlord with the Master of Maneuver trait but I totally failed as I charged him first, so the rest of the squad was too far away to benefit from the Trait
I think I'll always include at least two Bike squads in every pure DA list, maybe except on Ravenwing-heavy lists, so as to have always a fast unit to contest in the last minute.
On a completely other subject, Inceptors, anyone tried them with the Bolters ? I'm torn as to which build use for them, the Bolters are fantastic anti-horde weapons and can force saves on anything, but I feel I already have enough anti-horde weapons with my Kastelan Robots so Plasma to deal with Leman Russes and the likes looks tempting.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2018/01/05 10:44:18
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
I've used them both ways and both are good. It just depends on the role you want them to fill.
When I build a list I don't focus on any one wing. I focus on a concept for my list and having a purpose for every unit. So when adding a unit I ask myself what does my army need? where is it lacking? how am I going to use this unit in game?
2018/01/05 11:46:22
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
Since our new Codex dropped, I've tried a few list, but right now I'm focusing on a viable Greenwing (without Primaris: since don't have them, and I have too many other stuff to paint before I can even consider them).
Right now, I think a gunline for DA is a quite viable army. But, it lacks a little punch and especially a resilient model, when I face Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserker and those brutal assault unit (I have several Imperial Knights, but I'd like to change a little my usual army composition).
What do you think about the Chaplain Dreadnought as "the" a solution? I found out it's quite useful (even if he suffer very much against tarpits) and ridiculously resilient vs almost any kind of attach when used with DA as Warlord (thanks to Trait).
My last test was with:
- A Dreadnought Chaplain (a Venerable Dread with 5++... and remember that any venerable Dread has a 6+++), with 2 Dreadnought H2H Weapons (reroll "1" to hit in combat, as in his Datasheet) and double heavy flamer (a waste of his BS2+, but whatever). I made him Warlord (with the trait for a 6+++, a 5+++ in he not move) and Shroud of Heros (-1 to be hit). It's a 204 pt. total setup.
Then, I embarked him on Dreadnought Drop Pod (80 points).
My initial idea was to keep him until late game (2° or even 3° turn), deploy the pod, charge and use the pod itself as an achor to avoid shooting (the Chaplain is a Character with 9 wounds). I can use 2CP to have a charge reroll, if I pick up the right character (using the Stratagem to give +1Attack to an enemy Character, and reroll charge against him with Deathwing) and them making him Deathwing. Otherwise, if I can drop the Warlord Trait I can give him a in-build charge reroll. Or, also, I can give him the Eye of Unseen to try fish out characters to their doom.
The thing is an absolute monster, at least as resilience (And it's also a Character!).
5++/6+++/6+++ (Index Stat with standard Warlord Trait) was already nasty, but 5++/6+++/5+++ is somehow ridiculous.
He only takes around 0,3 wound for damage, and has the same absorption ratio even against Smite Spam (thanks to the Strategem to give a Vehicle a 5+++ against MW... he has a either 6+++/5+++/5+++ or 6+++/6+++/5+++... vs MW!!!! He can take something around 8 Smite in a single phase before to die).
Also vs CC unit is tough. Suppose that Mortarion Charge him - that's an approximation, of course, without psychic phase and such... but I think Mortarion is one of the biggest CC guys out there. I believe it shows how stupidly durable the DA Dread Warlord Chaplain is.
On average, with either his 6 or 18 attacks (and note that I DO NOT USE the Shroud here...that make the Chap even more durable thanks to -1 to be hit).
Eviscerating Blow | 6 attack | 5 hits | 4.2 wounds | 2.77 wounds after 5++ | 9.7 damage (D6) | 8.15 damage after 6+++ (already not enough to kill him) | 5.38 after 5+++. On average, a slightly less than half his wound. And the Chap doesn't degrade. Also (even more important), since the +++ are applied AFTER D6 damage, if the opponent roll very high, you have an high number of dice to roll... so you can statistically absorb more damage. A single ++ leaves you vulnerable to reroll on Damage. A +++ much less.
Reaping Scyte |18 attack | 15 hits | 10 damage | 6.66 after 5+/5++ | 5.59 dmg after 6+++ | 3.69 after 5+++. As above.
Also, a simple Machinator for quick repair keep him alive even longer..
[b]Alternate Loadout[b]
Since I believe it's already enough durable to stop for a turn or two anything in the game (I think)... what if, instead of the two close combat weapons and double heavy flamer I leave the drop pod at home (-80pt), make him footslogging (since he's Warlord, trouble will come his way in any case) and save -34pt. for the double heavy flamer?
With the 114 pt saved I can take a Twin Laser Cannon and a Storm Bolter (52 pt.) and save EXACTLY enough point for a Liutenant or a Machinator.
What do you think of this as a setup? Less aggressive, more supportive of the gunline. Eventually, I can also juggle around the Warlord Trait losing in durability but adding something else up (aura of +1 S for example, meaning +2 S for unit in H2H with him... Basic Maring wounding Aggressor on 3+ ^^).
Other good ideas to exploit him in a DA army? Also with Ravenwing or Deathwing, eventually (I have enought models to play anything ^^).
It's limited wargear is the only drawbacks I see (he can pick between assault cannon, melta or twin laser cannon... if I recall correctly).
P.S: it started as a request for optimal wargear, but became more a unit analysis Sorry
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/05 11:48:51
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
2018/01/05 17:02:04
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
I'm building a RW BK force to accompany Sammael and a Talonmaster. My plan is to add 7 BK (that's the models available) and I'm wondering if I should include an apothecary and/or an Ancient in this crew. I'm not planning to play competitively but i'd like to run a solid list.
Thanks !
2018/01/05 17:23:12
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
I'm building a RW BK force to accompany Sammael and a Talonmaster. My plan is to add 7 BK (that's the models available) and I'm wondering if I should include an apothecary and/or an Ancient in this crew. I'm not planning to play competitively but i'd like to run a solid list.
Thanks !
I don't think so. Maybe an Ancient. Build that model as another Black Knight. Spend saved points on Scouts, they help create space for bikes.
Aaranis wrote: I tried yesterday playing with an Ancient as my Warlord with the Master of Maneuver trait but I totally failed as I charged him first, so the rest of the squad was too far away to benefit from the Trait .
This should never happen unless you messed up. Even with your ancient failing the charge, you can get all 5 Knights into CC and still get his buff. Put the first 3 or 4 Knights 1" away from enemy, then leave 1 or 2 as a second row 1" behind them and don't pile in. Terminator bases are 1.5", you only have to be within 1" of an enemy to be considered in CC with them, and you are under no obligation to pile in more. Models only have to be within 1" of another model that's in CC to be able to use their attacks. so to recap, you've got your first row 1" away from enemy, +1.5" base size +1" in between your front row of terms and the back row +1.5" for their bases gives you 5" inches back, that means your only 4" away from your Ancient and still getting all your attacks and his buff.
It's the same thing you do with larger squads of smaller models. You leave a tail back to your buff character, only with terminators being on such big bases, you can get them all into CC and get the buff without losing any attacks, at least with 5 man squads.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/05 23:02:57
Aaranis wrote: I tried yesterday playing with an Ancient as my Warlord with the Master of Maneuver trait but I totally failed as I charged him first, so the rest of the squad was too far away to benefit from the Trait .
This should never happen unless you messed up. Even with your ancient failing the charge, you can get all 5 Knights into CC and still get his buff. Put the first 3 or 4 Knights 1" away from enemy, then leave 1 or 2 as a second row 1" behind them and don't pile in. Terminator bases are 1.5", you only have to be within 1" of an enemy to be considered in CC with them, and you are under no obligation to pile in more. Models only have to be within 1" of another model that's in CC to be able to use their attacks. so to recap, you've got your first row 1" away from enemy, +1.5" base size +1" in between your front row of terms and the back row +1.5" for their bases gives you 5" inches back, that means your only 4" away from your Ancient and still getting all your attacks and his buff.
It's the same thing you do with larger squads of smaller models. You leave a tail back to your buff character, only with terminators being on such big bases, you can get them all into CC and get the buff without losing any attacks, at least with 5 man squads.
Oh I messed up alright, I know that, first time I ran that comp on didn't think my move through.
Anyway, since then I have PTSD from invincible Leman Russes and so I made some maths to find out what was the most efficient between some AdMech and Dark Angels units I'd play with my playstyle. I'll pass you the details about AdMech but here's some results with what I'd use against Leman Russes (or Repulsors, both T8 3+). Disclaimer, I don't believe them to be the most objective choices in the whole codex, just what I'd use in my lists with my own playstyle and preferences:
Spoiler:
Please note that I didn't take in account the points and attacks from eventual support Characters for simplicity.
10 Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators, rerolling 1s to Hit: 4,00 D; 87,50 pts/W
- Rerolling 1s to Hit, Overcharge: 10,67 D; 32,80 pts/W
- Rerolling 1s to Hit, Overcharge, +1D: 16,00 D; 21,88 pts/W
- Rerolling Hits, Overcharge, +1D: 17,78 D; 19,69 pts/W
3 Inceptors with Plasma: 2,22 D; 79,73 pts/W (I didn't count rerolls because they'll be out of reach of support most of the time)
- Overcharge: 6,67 D; 26,54 pts/W
- Overcharge, +1D: 10,00 D; 17,70 pts/W
As you can see, the most efficient unit to destroy these targets are in order and without any rerolls or Stratagems; 1 Predator with 4 Lascannons, 5 Deathwing Knights, 10 Hellblasters with Incinerators (in rapid fire range !), 10 Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators, and then 3 Inceptors with Plasma.
We can note that the Heavy Incinerators lose against the regular Incinerators in every case, but only as long as you are in rapid fire range. If you don't want to move Azrael and your Hellblasters around pick the Heavy guns. Start using the rerolls and the Overcharge, and you have the Incinerators as best weapons, even more so with +1D from the Stratagem. Inceptors are good too, but you won't destroy a Leman Russ in a single volley with a min squad, and if you double the squad size you must double the results and while you can inflict 20 D you have less points efficiency than the Hellblasters.
The Knights, once supported by Asmodai and and Ancient are really strong, but lack Punch against these targets due to the lack of AP compared to the Hellblasters. The Predator is only better as long as the other choices aren't in optimal mode with rerolls, overcharges and such. I don't think it's a good option to include, especially since you can't protect them in Azrael's bubble.
TL;DR: Heavy Incinerators when not moving, Rapid-fire Incinerators when moving, Knights but only when supported with Ancient and Belial/Asmodai, Inceptors and then Predator with 4 Lascannons. Other options might be better depending on your own compositions and preferences, and the opponent you face. I didn't calculate the whole codex obviously :p
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 13:20:20
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2018/01/08 02:05:15
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
Your assumption about not having re-rolls for inceptors is a poor one. I have played them in 10+ games and never not had re-roll 1s to hit and wound. If you plan around it then it is super easy. Also WOTDA changes the math some, using it kills a leman Russ pretty easily with 3 inceptors with re-rolls.
2018/01/08 02:43:21
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 02:44:11
2018/01/08 03:26:09
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
Master w/ Jump Pack.
2018/01/08 03:41:24
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
Which is why you deepstrike them near an HQ that gives re-rolls. Jump pack master, Belial, or Sammi, all work. I suppose it depends on your list but it is no more of a good assumption that they will have no re-rolls than that helblasters will have the,. Both involve deciding to purchase an additional model for that purpose (or that the helblasters not move into range). It is certainly a worse assumption the the assumption that 5 DW Knights make it into combat with a leman Russ with supporting characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean if you include azzy with 10 Helblasters (rapid fire) it is 510 points. For those exact same points I get 6 inceptors with a JP master and JP lieutenant.
In rapid fire range according to the above you get ~27 damage.
The inceptors in my example average 25.83 for the same points. It is much harder to deliver those helblasters into range. When not in range it is not close.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/08 04:40:59
Breng77 wrote:Your assumption about not having re-rolls for inceptors is a poor one. I have played them in 10+ games and never not had re-roll 1s to hit and wound. If you plan around it then it is super easy. Also WOTDA changes the math some, using it kills a leman Russ pretty easily with 3 inceptors with re-rolls.
I didn't include them with rerolls because I don't have any JP Characters, but I did thought about the rerolls from a JP Master, it's just I don't play them. WOTDA was counted, when I write "Overcharge, +1D" I mean I Overcharge and use the WOTDA stratagem.
Breng77 wrote:
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
Which is why you deepstrike them near an HQ that gives re-rolls. Jump pack master, Belial, or Sammi, all work. I suppose it depends on your list but it is no more of a good assumption that they will have no re-rolls than that helblasters will have the,. Both involve deciding to purchase an additional model for that purpose (or that the helblasters not move into range). It is certainly a worse assumption the the assumption that 5 DW Knights make it into combat with a leman Russ with supporting characters.
I mean if you include azzy with 10 Helblasters (rapid fire) it is 510 points. For those exact same points I get 6 inceptors with a JP master and JP lieutenant.
In rapid fire range according to the above you get ~27 damage.
The inceptors in my example average 25.83 for the same points. It is much harder to deliver those helblasters into range. When not in range it is not close.
For some reason I had in mind the Exterminators had a 12" range. Anyway, I didn't totally dismiss Inceptors and I showed they can be really efficient, but we have to take into account others things than pure maths when making a choice, too. Sometimes you will play against a list with so much bodies you won't have room to DS near your target, and you have less Wounds in your Inceptors unit (but they're tougher). On the other hand, yes Hellblasters might be difficult to move into RF range, will footslog, and can be locked in CC while the Inceptors can fly away freely.
I still consider Heavy Incinerators for the sole reason they don't struggle with range that much, and have a good average damage output. you can castle them in a ruin with Azrael and spit out plasma constantly. RF Incinerators are more risky and needs more thought, but you gain the possibility to move your gunline and inflict much more damage when well-placed.
Another small point for Hellblasters compared to Inceptors is the extra AP, if your target is a Land Raider or if the Leman Russ gets +1 to its save it'll save less wounds against Hellblasters than Inceptors.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2018/01/08 10:40:50
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
Just because you don't play something doesn't mean it does not exist. As for targeting 18" range makes it pretty easy to
Hit your target most of the time, though it is true not all of the time. But you could say the same thing about LOS and helblasters your static helblasters might not always have LOS to their target and if they must move they go down the tubes for efficiency. It really comes down to playstyle I suppose I just think it is disingenuous to assume the optimal conditions for one unit and not another when looking at efficiciency.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The AP does make a difference but it isn't a very large one most of the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 11:05:47
I did the calculations for myself after all, just thought I'd translate and share my results with you, I didn't intend on running the calculations for every unit in every situation, hence no JP Master because I don't want to play a JP Master and Inceptors models are not too much to my taste so I'll just use a min squad (got one offered at Christmas), I was just wondering how to equip and use them based on numbers, not build my list around them.
Didn't think about LoS too much since it's almost impossible to have LoS blocking terrain with GW elements (I play only at my local GW store), and it's hard to hide a Leman Russ on our tables. I agree with you on this point however, Inceptors have mobility going on for them. If I include them with the plasma I'll probably use them to drop somewhere and finish off what the Hellblasters couldn't one-shot.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2018/01/08 12:08:37
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
The issue is that you presented them not in context of your list or models you like but as what you believed to be our most sensible options against a leman Russ. I mean lascannon devs are pretty decent with re-rolls as well (15.7 points per wound to a russ). So if you are playing a gunline DA list with Azzy, then yes helblasters are great. If you find you don't move much then heavy incinerators are a good choice, though they leave you vulnerable to short range shooting and assault more than the rapid fire variety.
2018/01/08 13:22:43
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
Breng77 wrote: The issue is that you presented them not in context of your list or models you like but as what you believed to be our most sensible options against a leman Russ. I mean lascannon devs are pretty decent with re-rolls as well (15.7 points per wound to a russ). So if you are playing a gunline DA list with Azzy, then yes helblasters are great. If you find you don't move much then heavy incinerators are a good choice, though they leave you vulnerable to short range shooting and assault more than the rapid fire variety.
You're right, I see what you mean. I edited my original post to say the results were subjective and will be better or worst depending on the army composition and the opponent you're facing. Thanks for your constructive criticism, I've known threads where I would've been almost insulted
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2018/01/08 14:25:33
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Codex Release!
I think people assume that getting their Inceptors in range is always going to be easy. I play Guard and I can tell you that if I went up against any SM player with Plasma Inceptors my Russ's will be at least 9 inches behind my line of guardsman or scout sentinels.
Have fun killing a 70ish point guard squad with that 400ish point combo of Master, Lieutenant, and Inceptors. Longer range units don't suffer from that limitation. I use Plasma Scions in my guard army and there are games when I am waiting until 2nd or 3rd turn to bring them in because I am playing an opponent that has a well structured army to rebuff deep strike. Honestly I feel that DS protection is a requirement given the current meta in 8th and while you may catch the occasional player not doing it, anyone that even remotely has their act together is screening with cheap units.
Well sure if you put your stuff further back, but again I assume you won't put them in LOS of my heavy weapons teams either. If I cannot hit you with them turn 1 I'll wait delete your chaff turn 1, then bring them down. It is easier said than done depending on deployment to have a Russ 9" behind your guardsman, as for sentinels I use scouts to push them back in pregame and clear a landing zone. If the guard player goes first it is much harder to deal with as they can push their screen up, but on that same not they can delete those static heavy weapon units. I see the deepstrike more as alpha strike defense than super offense. No a DA player with helblasters can dump a darkshroud and azzy to keep them survivable but they need to sit and take an alpha strike.
