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I use mine to shoot stuff 4 shots per bike + 3 special weapons is considerable output.

 Aaranis wrote:
How do we use regular Ravenwing Bikes ? To tarpit ? To claim objectives ? To shoot at stuff ? I now have 9 thanks to 3 DV boxes and was wondering how to include them in my AdMech/DA army.

create space for other units like black knights, Deathwing, and primaris dudes. Like scouts but more mobile (you should have scouts too)

I was thinking about primaris DA. Hellblasters are solid and DA makes them even better. Has anyone tried or thought of building a list around them?

I was thinking 2x10 Hellblasters in a phalanx with Azrael (modeled as Primaris), An Ancient with the relic banner, a Darkshroud, and maybe even an Apothecary.

Obviously this is a ton of points, but as a core you have a solid block of Primaris Marines with a 4++ and -1 to hit, if they do die they have a chance to shoot again (and almost certainly hit) and they can be brought back or healed. It's also just a hefty chunk of wounds. With the plasma stratagem and Azrael they should delete anything they look at, and are hard to tarpit with the fall back and shoot stratagem. .

I don't know about being ultra-competitive but it seems like it would do well with other supporting elements. Now, I don't have the DA dex so if the wording on some of the auras is models rather than units it may be a waste. But does this seem like a solid idea, thoughts?

Colgado wrote:
I was thinking about primaris DA. Hellblasters are solid and DA makes them even better. Has anyone tried or thought of building a list around them?

I was thinking 2x10 Hellblasters in a phalanx with Azrael (modeled as Primaris), An Ancient with the relic banner, a Darkshroud, and maybe even an Apothecary.

Obviously this is a ton of points, but as a core you have a solid block of Primaris Marines with a 4++ and -1 to hit, if they do die they have a chance to shoot again (and almost certainly hit) and they can be brought back or healed. It's also just a hefty chunk of wounds. With the plasma stratagem and Azrael they should delete anything they look at, and are hard to tarpit with the fall back and shoot stratagem. .

I don't know about being ultra-competitive but it seems like it would do well with other supporting elements. Now, I don't have the DA dex so if the wording on some of the auras is models rather than units it may be a waste. But does this seem like a solid idea, thoughts?

I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!

Great to hear! Does the Darkshroud work with them as well? What would you support this "Core" with (bonus points for using other Primaris)?

Colgado wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!

Great to hear! Does the Darkshroud work with them as well? What would you support this "Core" with (bonus points for using other Primaris)?

The darkshroud goes with everything! I almost always take one. It's hard not to get value out of it. Plus it draws fire away from your stuff that has actual firepower because your opponent will rage over it.

Stack it with flyers or aversion for sweet -2 to hit goodness.

Colgado wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!

Great to hear! Does the Darkshroud work with them as well? What would you support this "Core" with (bonus points for using other Primaris)?

You'll need a way to delete hordes since the Hellblasters want to shoot bigger tougher things. Inceptors with Assault Bolters or even Intercessors would work and keep the Primaris theme going. Aggressors jumping out of a Repulsor would also work. I have yet to try a Repulsor, but in the last tournament I played in a guy ran an all-Primaris army (not Dark Angels, but still) and absolutely wrecked face with 2 Repulsors and a bunch of Inceptors and Hellblasters.

 Swillsswil wrote:


Looks pretty solid. I was wondering about the scouts till I saw your explanation.

With the amount of plasma bikes the master is a decent pick. Probably will want to keep him with BKs & Talonmaster if they all split up.

Only thing I might do different is try to squeeze in a couple rhinos for the tac marines, since you said you want them midfield. Probably would need to reduce a couple bike squad sizes to find the points. They would give you great ablative wounds, are fast, and after you drop the squad you charge something with it. I've tied up land raiders and lemans so many times with a rhino its hillarious.

As is should still do well though, I just like to provide options whenever I see a list.

So I ended up fighting custodes and the dice were not with me tonight. He had 3 squads of custodes 2 landraiders a contemptor a squad of sisters of silence all with flamers and 2 inquisitors.

I blame the dice but I feel that I played to aggressive vs his units. I moved up turn 1 to try and nuke down the squad not in a land raiders. Failed miserably only doing 1 wound. He then was able to charge with his contemptor and 1 squad murdering my aggressors and black knights. After that it was a slow grind to defeat. By turn 3 I was so far behind on points I had no chance to come back.

Ended the game killing 10 of the 15 custodes the sisters and 1 land raiders. I think I needed to wait for him to commit moving forward more before trying to go for the kill. Anyway good learning game. Don't think I'll change anything til I get to fight something less elite

Breng77 wrote:I use mine to shoot stuff 4 shots per bike + 3 special weapons is considerable output.

So, shooty option I take it. I only have plasma guns as special weapons. Do you run min squads or bigger ?

axisofentropy wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
How do we use regular Ravenwing Bikes ? To tarpit ? To claim objectives ? To shoot at stuff ? I now have 9 thanks to 3 DV boxes and was wondering how to include them in my AdMech/DA army.

create space for other units like black knights, Deathwing, and primaris dudes. Like scouts but more mobile (you should have scouts too)

Don't have Scouts yet, but now I have 40 TAC Marines as Troops thanks to DV boxes I've been gifted. I think I'll use the bikes as escorts to my Dragoons, they have the speed necessary to stop stuff from going in their path and can eat Overwatch instead of my Dragoons.

Depends, I have been taking a squad of 5 with 2 plasma, combo-plasma and chainswords. Min squads also work but I am only running a single squad and lack the points for more special weapons. If I were going pure RW I think I'd run min squads with specials and combis as that is where the most power comes from. Being able to shoot bolters + other guns.

I would add the following considerations for RW bikes:

Min squads maximize special weapon density, but that is a doible edged sword. Every biker you loose is a dead special weapon. Same issue as min dev squads, but worse since your bikes will probably be closer to more enemy weapons.

If you want to add ablative wounds consider an atk bike w HB. Same wounds as 2 bikes for cheaper, and you trade out 1 TWB for a HB, which has pros and cons.

You can trade out a bikers pistol for a chainsword. Always do this. Try to keep them out of CC though as they are really bad at it against anything skilled plus you probably won't get to shoot your good guns.

Meltas and flamers are good picks because they are assault which means you can jink and shoot just like BKs. Plus their speed brings you into range quickly. Flamers may risk you getting tied up in CC, but at least your overwatch will be good. I prefer to leave plasma to BKs and hellblasters as they do it better.

As I said it depends on how many squads you are taking. If you are taking 2 squads with HB attack bikes it is almost worth just taking a 3rd mi. Squad with specials instead of the attack bike. While true every loss is a special weapon those squads dies quickly anyway.

What do you guys think about equiping ravenwing bikes with flamers and chainswords for anti horde work?

They seems to me as very point efficient squads, each biker will have 4 bolter shots in rapidfire range and d6 shots from the flamer
Cheaper then agressors, highly mobile and the 4 invuln save if they advance as well as an ability to charge after advancing to tie something up in CC for just one CP.

They are about the same cost as aggressors if you put a combi-flamer on the sarge. But are less shooty but more mobile.

agressors put out 18 bolter shots at 18' range

ravenwing bikes have 12 shots in rapid fire, and 3d6 from flamer at 8' range

Seems to me that bikes are more shooty if they get in flamer range which shouldn't be a problem with the 14' move and 6' advance

One edge the Ravenwing have over the aggressors is the keyword, so they can use those strategems and buffs from Sammeal and Talonmaster

Timur wrote:
agressors put out 18 bolter shots at 18' range

ravenwing bikes have 12 shots in rapid fire, and 3d6 from flamer at 8' range

Seems to me that bikes are more shooty if they get in flamer range which shouldn't be a problem with the 14' move and 6' advance

Aggressors put out 18 + 3D6 shots at 18", bikes have 14 shots (2 at -1 to hit) and 3D6 flamed hits.

So aggressors average 28.5 shots which averages 19 hits, bikes in flamed range average 19.5 hits. So they have a slight edge if they are 10"
Closer. Aggressors benefit more from re-rolls though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said I don't love aggressors in DA because we lack ways to get them into the fight.

I totally forgot about the fragstorms...

Is there any way of effectively using agressors in DA lists?

Here's a question: Is the Company Champion 44 points or 40? I think he's 44 because as far as I can tell you need to pay 4 points for the combat shield, but Battlescribe seems to think he's only 40 points.

Breng77 wrote:

Timur wrote:
agressors put out 18 bolter shots at 18' range

ravenwing bikes have 12 shots in rapid fire, and 3d6 from flamer at 8' range

Seems to me that bikes are more shooty if they get in flamer range which shouldn't be a problem with the 14' move and 6' advance

Aggressors put out 18 + 3D6 shots at 18", bikes have 14 shots (2 at -1 to hit) and 3D6 flamed hits.

So aggressors average 28.5 shots which averages 19 hits, bikes in flamed range average 19.5 hits. So they have a slight edge if they are 10"
Closer. Aggressors benefit more from re-rolls though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said I don't love aggressors in DA because we lack ways to get them into the fight.

That's not even counting the double shots from standing still, which is an aggressor special rule, which dovetails nicely into grim resolve. Your opponent can't let aggressors get into range and stay there, otherwise he is going to get 57 shots (rerolling ones) which ends up being 44 hits. Also being armed with powerfists is an advantage for aggressors, which allows them to punch heavy vehicles to death, something flamer equipped bikes won't be able to do. There is just no comparison between the fire power aggressors bring and the fire power ravenwing bikes bring.

To be honest though it's not really a fair comparison the two units have very different roles, Ravenwing bikes are fast, have Jink which makes them hard to kill, and stratagems that allow them to extend their reach and be more deadly. They are a scalpel, used to eliminate specific units that are hard to reach/hidden. Aggressors are blunt instruments that force your opponent react, and given a chance they can dust a thirty man IG screen in a single volley, unless your opponent is willing to blow CP to save less than 10 dudes.

Edit
As for how to use them, that's the rub, they are a high risk high reward unit. If you are fighting something like Tyranids or Orks, armies that close into to fight in CC, the plays write themselves. Put them behind the screen, have the screens fall back from melle, double shoot, profit. Using them against gunlines is more difficult, most people will advance them the first turn, after which they can still shoot at full BS, and then take a chunk out of a screen. If they are still alive after that, hold fast, and let them double shoot. After they are out of targets, and if by some miracle they are still kicking, run up and punch things. There are other things like using a repulsor to deliver and block LoS for them, or using them in firebat config as a minefield to discourage incoming charges (42 autohits in overwatch tends be an effective deterrent).

Guys we can't talk about DA Aggressors without talking about Azreal. I don't think I'd take one without the other; they're that good together.

I agree with that statement. I'm considering using aggressors in concert with hellblasters and Azrael as my midfield meatgrinder. It bothers me that you'll likely have a dead turn from such an expensive unit, but 6 aggressors provide impressive horde control and some much-needed protection for the hellblasters.

IandI wrote:
Here's a question: Is the Company Champion 44 points or 40? I think he's 44 because as far as I can tell you need to pay 4 points for the combat shield, but Battlescribe seems to think he's only 40 points.

As far as I can tell you pay 44 points and that is what I do. Its 40 points for the Company Champion base and then 4 points for the Combat Shield. The Blade of Caliban is free as is the bolt pistol, but the Combat Shield has a cost.

Having said that I do not use Battle Scribe.

Cheers

Yeah if you're playing in a tournament where there is even a remote chance of a CC army and you already have Azreal I think it's a no brainer to at least bring a minimum squad if you can at all find the points. Aggressors that can stand still and have Azreals 4+ are just straight up broken they're so good.

If you deploy the Hell Blasters at the edge of your deployment area and they move up you'll likely have something to fire at since even gun line armies like Guard *have* to deploy deep strike screens now if they don't want to be 1st turn charged. Sentinels or normal IG squads. It's not great but it's something and you do have to clear that stuff eventually so it likely won't be an entirely dead turn.

Took an explorational list to the FLGS warming up for the club championships with Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights in a Stormraven:

Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant
Librarian in Terminator Armour
Apothecary
4 x Scout Squads (mix of weapons)
Full Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators
Deathwing Knights
Devastators (2 x Lascannon, 2 x Misslie Launcher)
(Edit - bad copy paste - extra squad removed)
Stormraven
Nephilim

The first game was against a Steel Legion Astra Militarium Brigade with a Shadowsword, Chimeras and Myverns. I got the first turn and destroyed the Shadowsword with massed Supercharged/WOTDA Plasma and the Stormraven's multi-meltas. The Hellblasters also wiped a deep-striking Plasma-Scion squad with an Auspex Scan in the bottom of the first turn. By the end of second turn the Deathwing Knights were smashing their way through the Wyverns (while splatting a Primaris Psyker and a Master or Ordnance) after the Hellblasters cracked open two Chimeras to allow the Flyers to mow down the troops that piled out. A rough game for my opponent. Going first was huge, and so were the Hellblasters (who lost four to Supercharging along the way).

The second game was against Biel-Tan Eldar with Wave Serpeants, Banshees, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, an Avatar and those Wraith-Dreads in Big Guns Never Tire. This was a rougher game with him going first, and I was down the Devastators and two Scout squads by the end of his first turn. There was plenty of LOS blocking terrain in the centre of the board which made the game quite tactical, and my Hellblasters were frustrated by those shields on the Wave Serpeants that reduce damage by 1. The Deathwing Knights and Librarian opted to Deep Strike in the enemy's backfield instead of riding in the Stormraven and failed their 1st turn Charge Rolls.

In the second turn his Banshees piled out of a Serpeant and charged my Hellblasters (learned me some Eldar rulz). I had been lazy with Azrael and the Lt's placement and they could only offer encouragment instead of Heroic Intervening. Still, the Hellblasters lost only one of their number and then proceded to punch all but one of the Banshees to death (Azrael's and the Lt's advice was helpful at least). They then fell back from combat, used a Strategem and vaporized both Eldar Wraith-Dreads with Rapid-Fired/Supercharged WOTDA goodness. Azrael and the Lt plasma'd the last Banshee for good measure. In turn 3 the Avatar charged and was slain by Azrael after two rounds. The Deathwing Knights, though, were worn down by shooting and Psychic attacks as the Librarian and Watchers could only do so much. The store was closing, and I conceded the game. I had neglected to place the Devastators in Azrael's bubble at deployment and this was a critical error.

Observations - Still loving the Hellblasters. The Flyers were fun but fragile. Will likely swap them for more Hellblasters. The DW Knights were overkill in both games and vulnerable at the same time in Game 2. I will ponder these matches...

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Took an explorational list to the FLGS warming up for the club championships with Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights in a Stormraven:

Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant
Librarian in Terminator Armour
Apothecary
4 x Scout Squads (mix of weapons)
Full Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators
Deathwing Knights
Devastators (2 x Lascannon, 2 x Misslie Launcher)
Deathwing Knights
Stormraven
Nephilim

Wow it seems the Hellblasters were always doing their jobs, I'll be sure to include a full squad as soon as I can ! Was the Apothecary supporting them as well or was he more in the heat ?

So, not convinced by two squads of Knights ? I agree they seem too pricy to include two squads, maybe a single squad of 6-7 Knights instead ? Transport is always the problem, the Crusader is too expensive for what it does, but the Stormraven looks like the good solution. But why does it have to be so ugly ?

Sorry, I only had one squad of DW Knights - bad copy/paste in my list! Using the squad at the tourney will be my biggest single decision for the list build. They attract attention, but they take a big chunk of points.

The Apothcary was there to heal the Hellblasters and Azrael if necessary. He brought one Hellblaster and one Scout to life over two games and healed one Hellblaster that had taken a wound. Not great but not bad either.

Thoughts on Masters and Leuts with Hammers or Power fists ?

right now I run them with powerswords

I am running a tallonmaster with the relic blade but I am considering adding a Powerfist to my Jumpack Leutenant and a ThunderHammer to my jumpack Master.

thoughts on those loadouts ?

 zedsdead wrote:
Thoughts on Masters and Leuts with Hammers or Power fists ?

right now I run them with powerswords

I am running a tallonmaster with the relic blade but I am considering adding a Powerfist to my Jumpack Leutenant and a ThunderHammer to my jumpack Master.

thoughts on those loadouts ?

Weapons with -1 to hit would be good with the Master since you have a greater chance to reroll the misses. If the lieutenant is not near the master, you would be better with sure hit/questionable wound weapons.

I'd take a powerfist on the Master. It's more cost-effective than a thunder hammer. I like to keep my lieutenants cheap, though: power sword and nothing else.