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Shrapnelbait wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I'm a fan of the mobility and the deep strike nature. Plus they're flying. The opponent HAS to remove them otherwise I shut down one of his units on an assault, then walk away, shoot again, and shut down the unit again.

I think you're thinking of Inceptors not Hellblasters. Just curious, (I don't have the codex yet) how are you assaulting a second time when you leave combat. Shooting yes, due to Fly keyword, but I didn't think you were allowed to charge after falling back normally.

I was thinking about Inceptors. I was also thinking that there was a stratagem that allowed charging, but looking more carefully, I'm not honestly sure what I was thinking.

I'd say I'm safe to ignore on that part.

There are no primaris specific tactics in any of the space marine codexes, that and some obvious holes in the primaris lineup make me suspect we are going to get an angels of death style codex supplement for them.

As for inceptors, I've found them most useful when deployed out of charge range, preferably while using some reivers as a screen for them. Each unit when deep struck alone is vulnerable but together they can pose quite a challenge, forcing the opponent to choose between 18 heavy bolter shots or 16 CC attacks and 5 heavy bolt pistol shots.

Thanks guys. any other opinions about Hellblasters vs Devestators though? We seem to have got sidetracked into Inceptor strategy.

Mobility is the main advantage Hellblasters have, in my opinion. I tend to be running all over the board, so the static nature of Devastators is...well, devastating. The option of getting double the firepower at half range is also amazing. 15" is longer than it seems, and you'll likely be able to catch a couple units in that rapid fire range if you're facing anything other than a gunline.its hellblasters or Inceptors for plasma, as far as I'm concerned. That said, I want to try out Black Knights as plasma sources. They're pricy, but the jack of all trades thing is appealing, especially with SotR around.

-4 AP on the Hellblasters is a huge advantage over the Plasma Cannon. And mobility with no -1 to hit - opens up more target options, grab objectives. Also at a pinch 2 attacks across the unit is useful.

Helblasters also make better use of WOTDA as they can take more plasma shots. At best a unit of devs is getting 12 plasma shots (average is 8), helblasters can easily have more than that and up to 20. Now if you have a different unit making use of WOTDA, then it becomes a closer discussion as devestators are a bit cheaper.

I don’t play dark angels but I use primaris a lot. As a DA player I’d go for the units that benefit most from your CTs and stratagems. That seems to be aggressors with bolters, hellblasters (of any variety, but probably assault) and plasma inceptors.

Aggressors standing still with rerolls to hit will be really great. So will hellblasters, though you’ll sometimes have problems if they get picked on. I’d go for aggressors rather than dakka inceptors, because they’ll very rarely sit still.

Plasma inceptors are far better for DA than anyone else, thanks to WftDA. It also helps that you could have an HQ keep up with them relatively easily, since your captain doesn’t have to sit in your firebase to give all of them rerolls. Even if he can’t keep up you’ve got the option of not overcharging but still using WftDA.

The real stars of the codex seem to be dark talons. Compared to a storm talon they seem seriously under-costed. I was at a teams tournament this weekend and a guy on the winning team had 7 of them. He was undefeated at the end. These seem to be the most likely unit to make it into soup lists.

Dark angels reroll ones if they don't move, so having an HQ babysit is completely optional. That same CT is the reason you won't see many of us using the assault versions, because sitting and shooting is our jam. We would use the heavy version if it had a reason to exists, but as yet there is no convincing argument to get us off of the default plasma incinerator.

Dark angels generally play in what I like to call fortress dark angels style, where you have the hell blasters by a banner, surrounded by mooks. Add in azrael for a 4++ and you'll find dark angels firebase is a tough nut to crack. We then use ravenwing as flankers/harassment/objective getters, which are supplemented by rievers and inceptors. We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.

I've been experimenting with the Heavy Plasma Incinerators. The extra Strength has come in handy against vehicle targets as well as T4 MEQs. I run a Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators and a Hellblaster Squad with Heavy Plasma Incinerators. I think, though, that the standard Plasma Incinerator is indeed the better option.

p.s. In two recent games against Eldar my Hellblasters have come out on top against Howling Banshees in close combat (Azrael's 4++ helped them survive the charge of course). They also took down a Farseer in close combat. I am not saying that they should actively seek close combat, but they don't fold like most shooty units.

Today I saw a 'bubble' DA style that might interest you, guys:

- Darkshroud
- 3 Venerable Dreads with Missile Launcher and Twin Lascannons
- 1 Dreadnought with Twin Autocannon and Missile Launcher
- 2 Tactical Squads, one with Lascannon and the other with Missile Launcher
- Scout Squad with Missile Launcher
- Master
- Lieutenant
- Techmarine

They all stood close to each other, firing at the enemy and barely moving. Although the Darkshroud died in one Shooting phase, the rest dealt with the table. Plasma Inceptors and some Scions helped later.

It's not a gamestyle I'm keen on playing, but it worked

 Grimgold wrote:
We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.

But if you don't want to use Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors become the best target for WotDA. Also, they can fire at everything in the game instead of having to walk or care about terrain. All you need is a Jump Master to give them re-roll 1s.

 Grimgold wrote:
. We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.

I disagree with this sentiment, it works better on helblasters for you because you are giving them the support. If you gave that same (or similar) support to Plasma inceptors they on average out perform Helblasters. Helblasters are more durable, but are far less good at destroying a target of your choosing due to mobility and LOS, they also get fewer shots per point.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.

But if you don't want to use Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors become the best target for WotDA. Also, they can fire at everything in the game instead of having to walk or care about terrain. All you need is a Jump Master to give them re-roll 1s.

Master in jump pack is 96 points with a chainsword and a master crafted boltgun, on top of the almost 200 you pay for three plasma inceptors. At 200 points plasma inceptors are already pricey for what they do, and adding another 96 points to that doesn't make the math better. They aren't going to last more than a round, so you have to get that 300 points worth damage as soon as they drop. So it's possible they can work out, I just don't think it's likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
. We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.

I disagree with this sentiment, it works better on helblasters for you because you are giving them the support. If you gave that same (or similar) support to Plasma inceptors they on average out perform Helblasters. Helblasters are more durable, but are far less good at destroying a target of your choosing due to mobility and LOS, they also get fewer shots per point.

Yeah, Azreal doesn't come in jump variety, and neither does an ancient. Without those two plasma inceptors are way too vulnerable to getting shot off the board before they can earn their points back.

Next question from the DA Noob, if you're building a small list (1000pts, and no flyers) and you don't know what you're going to be playing against, what would you choose to include to deal with either crowd control (Ork or guard) and MEQ?

MEQ can be answered by plasma - usually hellblasters. Just rip that armor save off.

Orks and other horde stuff is another matter. I'm fond of using Flamestorm Agressors, but bolter scouts perform remarkably well. 10 shots at range, 20 up close, pistols for melee backup... they'll generally kill over twice their point value in cheap stuff.

Redemptor with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon? That or bolt storm aggressors. I want to like the fire bat config of aggressors, but By the time that ork mob is close enough to flame they are also close enough to charge.

From a BA perspective, redemptors are quite useful. They are good bullet sponges, and contribute in every phase of the game. You guys even get a bonus ability relevant to the macroplasma loadout. I think they are even better for DA than BA, and I take them over my furiosos now.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
Next question from the DA Noob, if you're building a small list (1000pts, and no flyers) and you don't know what you're going to be playing against, what would you choose to include to deal with either crowd control (Ork or guard) and MEQ?

The Land Speeder Characters or RW bikes can do crowd control. And yeh plasma for MEQ.

Twin AssCan Razorbacks are still great for horde clearing. And Hellblasters will rip MEQ a new one.

Has anyone tried running Veterans with Storm Shields and Plasma guns? Sergeant with combi-plasma

That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.

The new horde mulchers are talonmasters and dark talons. You will need nothing else. They are devestatingly good at this role. I personally like my vets with all plasma guns. Just another nice alternative for weapons of the dark age. Plunk them in a razorback with twin assault cannons and maybe a worthy character, I personally like Ezekiel, and you have yourself a useful elite unit. It will fold under too much pressure but right now it's easy to put forth other priority targets your opponent might not pay as much attention to these guys.

MilkmanAl wrote:
That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.

That's what I thought at first, but they are only 2 pts more than equal number of Hellblasters. Slightly shorter range but comparable amount of plasma output, and 3++ save to offset the single wound compared to two. Was curious to find out if the 3++ save made them good for objective camping and stuff. The effort to dig them out of cover might be too much when presented with other juicy targets like Contemptors, Hellblasters and stuff.

It might make for a unit that can operate without being babysat by characters.

Storm shields on vets is hard to justify for me. Only weapon that ot will come in useful for is plasma. Even -1 ap weapons won't use it if you are in cover. I like shields on multiwound models likely to get hit by big guns like characters or terminators. I wish we had an option for an ogryn shield lite that would add +1 to armour saves instead.

Hey all, I've been lurking in the shadows for a long time, and am considering returning to 40k after a long "break". Former Ultramarine and Eldar player but am considering going green. I currently have the the Dark Vengeance box plus one tac squad w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, one scout squad w 2x sniper, missle launcher, shotgun and sgt w/powerfist. I also have 5 terminators w/ 2x TH/SS, 1 LC, 1chainfist, one dread with TLLC and heavy flamer fist, one ironclad dread with hurricane bolter, one tech-marine and enough spare marines to put together a 5 man dev squadwith two missles and a plasmacannon. I do not own any of the 8th edition codecies or the index.
That is a mess of a list. I am hoping that someone here can help me to figure out how to set this up and then build a wishlist for what to purchase in the near future to help make the list better. From reading this entire tactica I can see scouts are the new black so I will aim at getting more of them.
What advice can you give on how to set up and expand?

Before you commit, I'd go check http://boards.4chan.org/tg/ and search for the 40k general thread. In the first post of the thread there should be some resources to help decision making, such as the FAQs, mathhammer worksheets, that kind of stuff. Just ignore the silliness that follows the first post.

The default force org chart of this edition has three troops and two HQ as mandatory, fortunately you have that covered with a little to spare. So the starting point is the librarian and the master, a squad of scouts, and two tac squad with plasma guns. The two extra plasma cannons will go to the dev squad.

It ends up looking like this for a 1k lists:

Thanks Grimgold. Does the new codex for DA use Ironclad dreads? I was thinking of trying to convert it to a rifleman dread. Can I use the master as a counts as Azreal model due to the identical weapons load out?

Sadly not, Normal dreads for us.

Cool, so if I want to use it, I'll just have to find new arms.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.

That's what I thought at first, but they are only 2 pts more than equal number of Hellblasters. Slightly shorter range but comparable amount of plasma output, and 3++ save to offset the single wound compared to two. Was curious to find out if the 3++ save made them good for objective camping and stuff. The effort to dig them out of cover might be too much when presented with other juicy targets like Contemptors, Hellblasters and stuff.

It might make for a unit that can operate without being babysat by characters.

Shorter Range Less AP, fewer wounds. Sure you have a 3++ but shooting you with bolters or AP -1 if you are in cover. If you are taking azzy with the helblasters your 3++ does not off set the extra wound (I would argue it doesn't do so for the most part anyway. They also suffer from 5 man max squad so they are worse for WOTDA.

Look at it this way

IN cover against AP 0 and 1 Helbalsters are twice as durable. Against AP 2 helblasters are still more durable unless you are taking multiple damage wounds. IF the Helblasters have azzy then they are better against pretty much ever damage 1 weapon and pretty comparable against everything else given they same cost. I think if I were sitting them in cover somewhere I would want longer range weapons than plasma guns as well.

Breng77 wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.

That's what I thought at first, but they are only 2 pts more than equal number of Hellblasters. Slightly shorter range but comparable amount of plasma output, and 3++ save to offset the single wound compared to two. Was curious to find out if the 3++ save made them good for objective camping and stuff. The effort to dig them out of cover might be too much when presented with other juicy targets like Contemptors, Hellblasters and stuff.

It might make for a unit that can operate without being babysat by characters.

Shorter Range Less AP, fewer wounds. Sure you have a 3++ but shooting you with bolters or AP -1 if you are in cover. If you are taking azzy with the helblasters your 3++ does not off set the extra wound (I would argue it doesn't do so for the most part anyway. They also suffer from 5 man max squad so they are worse for WOTDA.

Look at it this way

IN cover against AP 0 and 1 Helbalsters are twice as durable. Against AP 2 helblasters are still more durable unless you are taking multiple damage wounds. IF the Helblasters have azzy then they are better against pretty much ever damage 1 weapon and pretty comparable against everything else given they same cost. I think if I were sitting them in cover somewhere I would want longer range weapons than plasma guns as well.

I totally agree with this. Veterans make a great platform for storm bolters since they are a cheap weapon, but they won't last long enough in a game to warrant 18 extra points of bling (plasmagun + SS). With the storm bolters, put them in a drop pod or Razorback and go kill hordes. With 3 attacks each (because chainswords) they can even charge to finish off a unit that they shoot at. Or even charge to lock a tank or two in combat and prevent them from shooting back. Now I'm kind of wishing I had some more veterans. The ones I have are kitted out for last edition with grav guns, which I think we can all agree are terrible in 8th.