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 ChargerIIC wrote:
+20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.

correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....

 zedsdead wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
+20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.

correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....

I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
+20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.

correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....

I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?

Its 180 pts without wargear so you will need to fork up another 20 pts for the bolters

tedurur wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
+20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.

correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....

I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?

Its 180 pts without wargear so you will need to fork up another 20 pts for the bolters

exactly.. that's the way I read it.

I'm sorry but that's a bit much. a points increase and a 0-3 restriction ?? the restriction was good enough.

Hey, at least it didnt go up 90 pts as the fire raptor That said I think a 20 pts increase would have been justified even with the 0-3 change. 40 pts seems a little much. Seems like Leman russ squadrons will be the new black now...

So, aside the Dark Talon and Fire Raptor point fix, nothing else changed for us? I don't see a Blood Angels specific FAQ as well...

Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf

Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf

Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..

its super easy!

Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.

Damn you, GW...

What did you want them to change in a FAQ ?

Looks like Dark Talons are dead now. Long live the Stormraven!

So good thing I didn't buy a Dork Talon, and,

Deadwing is really and truly dead, isn't it. At least I still have 5" movement speed!!!

So much for my alpha strike plans with Inceptors, but then again with 10" movement speed and fly I'm not sure if that is exactly a nail in the coffin.

Maybe I'll buy some Nopeblasters with Azrael after all.

Aeri wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf

Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..

its super easy!

Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.

I'm pretty sure you just should put the whole thing in your closet for a while. Nephilim hasn't been good since....ever. I'd still run it as a Dark Talon, personally.

So, as far as the FAQ and its impact on the Unforgiven as far as I can tell:
-Dark Talons took a massive kick in the nuts. I'm not sure they are worth running at all for 200 points, plus we can't take more than 3 (thanks to whoever it was that ran 8 of them at Adepticon for putting the Dark Talon on GW's nerf radar). Limiting to 3 and only raising 10 or 20 points would have been fine, but 40 points?
-As TedNugent said above, Deathwing is truly dead now, if it wasn't already in competitive play. Here I was hoping they'd make Termies actually good, but instead they made all termies everywhere categorically worse.
-Strangely, they whacked Dark Talons with the nerf bat, and they touched Bobby G, but they left Azrael alone. I'm very glad our favorite mini-Primarch is still really good and will now form the core of even more lists as players abandon their Dark Talons in droves.
-I think we may see more Devastators and other gunline stuff since the need for cheap chaff has decreased. Scouts will still be our cheap troop choice, but now we may see more Intercessors hit the table since they are a better gunline unit.
-Inceptors took a minor hit with the turn 1 DS nerf, but they are probably still solid even if held back until turn 2, and can even drop in your DZ on turn 1 and get work done if your opponent is running a melee army that has to come across no man's land to reach you.
-With the aforementioned nerf to the Talon and also the one to the Fire Raptor, plus the fact that Nephilims are still not great, the Stormraven is looking a lot better. Start it next to a Darkshroud for -2 save goodness.
-We can still ally in some of our friends, just in different detachments. Celestine for -1CP or in a patrol with a Battle Sister Squad, or 3 Assassins in a Vanguard (no HQ needed per the FAQ). Plus the old standby of 3 Custodes JetCaptains should still work.

Yes, I'm salty about the Talons, but rather than grouse about it, I'm going to see what I can come up with for our boys in green. Our top build (Azrael Gunline with Hellblasters and Devastators) is still very good, in fact if anything it got better now that Battalions give 5 CP, so DA are still a solid army, with some decent ally options.

Yeah, this FAQ did nothing negative to my Greenwing (that's black), so all in all, I feel it just became better, because a lot of armies got worse.

Now that I don't need to worry about dealing with 3 Fire Raptors, or 7 Hive Tyrants, or other crap like that, I know my small but destructive force will live longer to get done what they need to.

With Dark Talons essentially out of the mix, I'm liking the alliance of a Custodes Outrider for some horde clearing and combat toughness supported by Azrael and some Hellblasters. It's more Custodes than DA, but it's a nifty combo, especially with the extra CP from Battalions!

The best thing about playing Dark Angels this edition is that you receive 0 changes, be it CA, your 2-week FAQ, the BIG FAQ, etc... so I only need my codex to play

MilkmanAl wrote:
With Dark Talons essentially out of the mix, I'm liking the alliance of a Custodes Outrider for some horde clearing and combat toughness supported by Azrael and some Hellblasters. It's more Custodes than DA, but it's a nifty combo, especially with the extra CP from Battalions!

I have been playing Greenwing with allied Custodes, they work great. Greenwing for your longe range support, Custodes for jetbikes and meele godness.

MilkmanAl wrote:
With Dark Talons essentially out of the mix, I'm liking the alliance of a Custodes Outrider for some horde clearing and combat toughness supported by Azrael and some Hellblasters. It's more Custodes than DA, but it's a nifty combo, especially with the extra CP from Battalions!

You could always take a supreme command detachment with jetbike shield captains instead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable

I'm not exactly playing anything competitive, but I have noticed that literally everyone making competitive lists is using Scouts.

I've always been opposed to the aesthetics and the idea of Scouts as troops in a mainline list.

I realize that Tacticals are not that exciting, albeit with two considerations - 1 the infiltration nerf and 2 - the number of genuine improvements they have seen since 5th edition.

I lean towards them in terms of fluff and aesthetics - plus, I have a lot of them from Dark Vengeance.

Is there any reason that I should be categorically opposed to running 5 man tactical combi plas/plas, or even 10 man combi/plas/cannon squads?

Perhaps I just have a mental block against Primaris marines in DA since it doesn't really make sense in their tiered knowledge setup. Ironically I view standard greenwing marines as being elite, old guard DA in comparison to Primaris newbie scrublords. Incidentally even though the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah looks great in his robe, I also find this offensive. What is that clown doing with rank and in robes, when he is wet behind the ears in comparison to my standard bolter pleb in olive drab?

Anyway, what's the deal. I know people are against tacticals, but are they still so atrocious that I am a fool to use them?

 TedNugent wrote:
I'm not exactly playing anything competitive, but I have noticed that literally everyone making competitive lists is using Scouts.

I've always been opposed to the aesthetics and the idea of Scouts as troops in a mainline list.

I realize that Tacticals are not that exciting, albeit with two considerations - 1 the infiltration nerf and 2 - the number of genuine improvements they have seen since 5th edition.

I lean towards them in terms of fluff and aesthetics - plus, I have a lot of them from Dark Vengeance.

Is there any reason that I should be categorically opposed to running 5 man tactical combi plas/plas, or even 10 man combi/plas/cannon squads?

Perhaps I just have a mental block against Primaris marines in DA since it doesn't really make sense in their tiered knowledge setup. Ironically I view standard greenwing marines as being elite, old guard DA in comparison to Primaris newbie scrublords. Incidentally even though the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah looks great in his robe, I also find this offensive. What is that clown doing with rank and in robes, when he is wet behind the ears in comparison to my standard bolter pleb in olive drab?

Anyway, what's the deal. I know people are against tacticals, but are they still so atrocious that I am a fool to use them?

Competitively, tacticals suffer from the problem of not having any job that they do well. They are generalists in a game where specialists tend to rule. I've tried them a little, and was underwhelmed, to say the least. That said, Combiplasma/plasma is probably the way to go if you insist on using them, and you can double them up in a Rhino or drop pod. Comparing them to the other troop choices, Scouts are cheaper, while Intercessors are twice as durable, at least against 1 damage weapons, and their bolt rifles have better range and AP.

Believe me, I want tacticals to be good, as I myself have a ton of them from last edition when I was building a Lion's Blade force (that I never even got a chance to field). They just aren't cutting it, at least in competitive play. They can be fun and flavorful in a more casual setting though, so go crazy!

I see. What about pairing the Combiplas-plas squad in an assault cannon Razorback?

You'll get far more mileage out of the Razorback than its passengers. I tried this very thing, and that's what happened: the Razorback put in solid work, but the Tacticals got one shooting attack that didn't make a hell of a lot of difference, and then they died without too much effort on my opponent's part.

I actually did think of one possible decent use of a tac squad: stick them in cover with a Lascannon. They become a bit more of a pain in the butt for your opponent, as he'll have to commit more firepower than a tactical squad is really worth to remove them. At the same time, he doesn't want to keep getting his vehicles nailed with a lascannon every turn, so he needs to commit that firepower, meaning he doesn't have it to use on the rest of your army. It's a niche use, but probably the only real way to make tacs do something the other troop options can't do better.

I've found a single lascannon to be pretty underwhelming.

That 5 man squad is 90 points on a single lascannon.

 Brother Payne wrote:

What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable

you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.

Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.

I'm thinking of using an imperial bastion to protect hellblasters but what i cant figure out is whether embarked hellblasters will be able to benefit from grim resolve and rerol 1s?
Does anyone know?

axisofentropy wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable

you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.

Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.

Yeah I guess it's a case of just because you can doesn't mean you should...
Still running the greenwing / RW hybrid list from a few pages back? I look forward to hearing how it goes

Timur wrote:I'm thinking of using an imperial bastion to protect hellblasters but what i cant figure out is whether embarked hellblasters will be able to benefit from grim resolve and rerol 1s?
Does anyone know?

As was said above you're probably better off with devastators, but either way I don't see why the unit wouldn't benefit from grim resolve

5 man tac sqds with a lascannon is a decent unit. It spreads your firepower (a lascannon dev sqd can be cleared easily) so you still have lascannons to hurl across the table, plus objective secured.

Monobuild Ravenwing and Deathwing both took a further kick in the nuts. Ravenwing with the increased cost of Dark Talons plus low CP generation for using Outrider detachments, and Deathwing with the new Deepstrike rule and low CP generation as above but with Vanguard.

I would really like to see Ravenwing bike sqds counts as Troops if every unit in the detachment had the keyword "Ravenwing". Same for Deathwing, but Terminator sqds as troops. Yes, you would have to use the Inner Circle strategem to make your Dreads and Land Raiders Deathwing (so would lose some CPs there) but should still come out ahead. Alternatively, if all share same Ravenwing or Deathwing keyword, make it 3CPs for Outrider and Vanguard instead.

Not a fan of them personally but I think tacs are more viable now that the DS nerf has made scouts less mandatory. I think we're more likely to see an increased number of Intercessor units rather than tac squads though

People getting all salty and wanna convert DT into Nephilim without even playing a game? Seriously? Yes, Dark Talon was undercosted for the benefits it gave and yes the 40p increase is too steep imo but i think its still viable. There is no Flyer in the game which can fly 60'' over a 10man dev squad/reaper sq 1st turn from the edge of the table and deliver that many mortal wounds just for passing over with a single cp.
And dont forget that some guy walked into LVO with 8 Dark Talons...
As for the DS nerf, its Beta rule and i dont think its gonna pass. So scouts still playable for the most part.

Going to be playing with a ferocious Tau player tomorrow, 2000 pts. I know he uses Farsight and plays kinda WAAC so I expect to get bummed. Also, shop is not using beta rules, except if both players agree, and OF COURSE he doesn't want to, he plays Farsight.

What should I be wary of ? I've played him once with his Index pre-Tau Commander nerf and got raped severely (didn't know he was going to play such a list to be honest), playing a pure Stygies VIII AdMech list. My 3 Dragoons feel useless against Tau due to insane Overwatch. Was going to play my 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration but I wonder. Have 2 Battalion, Stygies and Dark Angels with 10 Hellblasters, Ancient and some stuff. Can post the list if you want. Anyone ever played against a good Tau player recently (post-codex) ?

Aeri wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf

Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..

its super easy!

Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.

I got lucky as heck. The 'Dark Talon' I was buying off a friend turned out to be a 100% Nephilim Fighter. I ain't complaining. Course now I have two fighters I need to pry the avenger bolters off of to do some magnetizing of the nose weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Noneisbackhere wrote:
People getting all salty and wanna convert DT into Nephilim without even playing a game? Seriously? Yes, Dark Talon was undercosted for the benefits it gave and yes the 40p increase is too steep imo but i think its still viable. There is no Flyer in the game which can fly 60'' over a 10man dev squad/reaper sq 1st turn from the edge of the table and deliver that many mortal wounds just for passing over with a single cp.
And dont forget that some guy walked into LVO with 8 Dark Talons...
As for the DS nerf, its Beta rule and i dont think its gonna pass. So scouts still playable for the most part.

I've played with both and even got in a post-FAQ game in last night. Both are good fighters but are really similar in performance. The Dark Talon edges out because of the Stasis Bomb but that's not worth 25 points of difference. I'm swapping from 2 Dark Talons, 1 Nephilim to two nephilim, 1 dark talon.