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xerxeshavelock wrote:
It also might be a balancing factor for the quite potent combination of high movement, Combat and Agility skills. Some combinations are stronger than others. Of course, we don't have enough knowledge of what's planned to compare, but I guess it's about how much faith you have in their design ethic.

It could also be related to balance as well. They are pretty mobile and do have access to gas weapons, which are just nasty.

Duskweaver wrote:
I do. I would normally be willing to give GW the benefit of the doubt, but there are just too many sexist stereotypes shoehorned into the Escher fluff in this edition for me to do that without being willfully blind. They are literally what the nerdy kid in school who couldn't get a date thinks girls are like (except with guns and biotech). They are the only gang explicitly stated to make money from the sex trade, despite the fact that logically all gangs would do that. They're the only gang to be negatively mechanically effected by their psychosis, when all gangers in the game are supposed to be at least a bit unstable. They're described as being exceptionally vain and fashion-obsessed (and viciously catty - gangers dare not look better than their gang leader). They think it's a good idea to wear stiletto-heeled thigh-boots in combat.

So you genuinely think that Andy Hoare and James Hewitt sat down and decided, wilfully, intentionally, decided to make the female faction less level-headed because of sexism?

Come on...

Duskweaver wrote:
Do you honestly (and I do mean honestly) not see the big pile of problem there?

Nope. Because there's nothing to see. You're chasing at phantoms in the underhive.

Duskweaver wrote:
I'm not some SJW ideologue who freaks out at the merest hint of sexism or objectification...

Maybe so but you're doing what they do so often: Assuming motive.

Not another sexist SJW discussion please. No crusader points in the internet!

Usually the people who make the drugs are not the ones who use them most- they are smart enough to sell it to others cos they know what the drugs do to people.

Also, we know two houses are reliant on Escher drugs for them to function.

 Haighus wrote:
Usually the people who make the drugs are not the ones who use them most- they are smart enough to sell it to others cos they know what the drugs do to people.

Also, we know two houses are reliant on Escher drugs for them to function.

It explicitly says that they use their drugs on themselves. "Usually" doesn't matter. Its in their background that they sample their own products.

as befits the character of their parent Clan House, Escher gangs make extensive use of especially tailored chemicals and elixers, both on themselves and their enemies

Page 87, underhive.

Not to mention that chemsynths are part of their basic wargear list, unlike goliath.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So you genuinely think that Andy Hoare and James Hewitt sat down and decided, wilfully, intentionally, decided to make the female faction less level-headed because of sexism?

.
I think they did it "because of sexism", but not "wilfully, intentionally". I may have actually misunderstood your question slightly. I don't think they deliberately set out to demonstrate their sexist attitudes. I just think the GW design studio is enough of a boy's club that nobody there looked at what they'd written and realised that they'd hit quite so many sexist stereotypes. This sort of thing is almost always unconscious/unintentional. And I also don't think it makes Andy Hoare and James Hewitt bad people in any meaningful sense. Unconscious sexism is the norm, not the exception. Most people fall into it unless they make an effort not to. As a writer myself, I know I sometimes look at stuff I've written and realise there are... let's say "unfortunate implications" that the piece would be better off without (but that's much less embarassing than when the person who commissioned the piece points it out during a Skype conversation... ). But my clients are mostly video game developers, which as an industry (GamerGate aside) is actually much more... sensitive? socially aware? on this issue than tabletop wargaming companies like GW seem to be. I think GW is about where the tabletop RPG industry was 20 years or so ago on what I guess we could call "gender issues".

Anyway, at the risk of prolonging this, let me ask you a question. If they'd done one gang that was all dark-skinned, while the other five were all light-skinned, and the dark-skinned gang had a penalty to their Intelligence score relative to all the other gangs (in the name of "balance", natch, so let's say they have a bonus to S and T), would you think that was OK?

Jesus Christ, could you not?

Yeah, I do actually feel bad about bringing it up in this particular thread, since it doesn't really have much to do with the topic. I would remind everyone that it started as merely a (mostly) light-hearted reply to another poster complaining about House Orlock's changed skill lists. But HBMC asked me a question and I answered it honestly, as requested. Nobody is required to like the answer.

I know this is probably not going to happen, but I really hope they release plastic sprues for weapon upgrades. I'd like to see a box of arms, maybe a couple new poses and lots of weapons and tidbits for all or at least some of the gangs.

I have a bit of a fetish for little cap on my minis. My guard models and Space marines are heavily loaded out with gernades, ammo belts/pouches, knives and any accesorys I can fit on them. I just like to kit them out and it would be nice for extra variety as well as possibly new gear.

Gangwar is obviously missing quite a few things in wargear: the amount of gun mods and melee mods not currently in the game is both shocking and appealing as it means we should be getting more. Maybe a plastic gun kit: different stocks, scopes, weapon upgrades, tailsmonds, charms and the like would all be fun.

I can't remember if I or anyone else has already mentioned it, but I'd like an upgrade pack of Caryatids, since Andy dragged that bit of background out from the old material. Little blue, bat-winged flying babies that bring good luck; what's not to like?

Am I going mad, or did their used to be a mechanic somewhere for turning members of retired Gangs into Hired Guns?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I can't remember if I or anyone else has already mentioned it, but I'd like an upgrade pack of Caryatids, since Andy dragged that bit of background out from the old material. Little blue, bat-winged flying babies that bring good luck; what's not to like?

J'accuse!

It might have been in the rules in Outlanders for leadership challenges.

If there weren't, it's easy enough to do. Their gang rating is cost + (XP/5). Hiring fee is one fifth of that. Should be easy enough to work out the cost in the new edition, too.

If anyone's interested in using more 40K dudes in a Necromunda setting I have a 75 page rulebook that I wrote with a friend that ported the majority of 6th Ed 40K over to Necromunda rules . Skill trees, equipment rarities and costs, new rules, thew whole shebang.

It's a beta test version, and some tinkering will be needed to make it fit with the new rules, and it's going to be missing newer units, but it's pretty solid. We played it for about a year at our FLGS and everyone had a lot of fun. PM me if your interested and I'll email you a copy.

On a related note, is anyone interested in attempting something similar with 8th Ed and/or making a more organized attempt to rationalize the one I have with the new Necromunda? I'm sure we have enough guys to playtest and comment on adapting 8th. Why wait for GW (who isn't going to do this anyway IMO)?

Baxx wrote:
Guess we just disagree.

In my view, the dead dumbed-down demo version of the game is obsolete. Time will tell who is right.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


You tell me where in gang war it tells you how to wound, how to charge, or when to roll your cool checks.

The basic Necromunda Underhive - without the campaign elements - would seem to be perfect for games in shops against strangers, where you'll have no continuity week on week when it comes to opponents. In English, "obsolete" doesn't mean "something I don't want". Perhaps it's different in Norwegian.

Obsolete means, variously: no longer in use, no longer wanted, or old fashioned. It does not strictly mean not useful or wanted.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion of course, and maybe people do feel that the OOB version is obsolete. What boggles me is that some of those same people seem to think that their opinion matters in any context outside their own personal likes and dislikes. It doesn't. The utility of a version of the game that doesn't require a table full of specialist terrain is manifest and obvious. As is the utility of a casual version of the game that doesn't require extra set up, paper work, plat time, and a regular group of players. I really don't know why anyone would even try to argue differently.

The actual question, I think, is: would the "no campaign" game be supported in the Gang War X books for the rest of the gangs? As in, will ther be premade gangs and different gang creation rules for both styles of play in the following books?

I'm not talking about the core rules of the rulebook, the argument about to wound etc does not apply. That part is not part of my argument. 2d/3d is not part of my argument. I'm talking about the 20+ pages that does not combine with gang war 1 or any future gang war. Sure the demo game has a purpose. But it will not gain any additional support, no extra gangs or anything. It is a dead game only suitable for newbie intros and extremely unvaried and simplified casual play.

I think it is bad to have those dead pages in the book, instead of a separate pamphlet. I guess all will be good when the rulebook is released separately. Then those obsolete pages of the dead demo game will be gone. But I fear the advanced section will remain.

Baxx wrote:
I'm not talking about the core rules of the rulebook, the argument about to wound etc does not apply. That part is not part of my argument. 2d/3d is not part of my argument. I'm talking about the 20+ pages that does not combine with gang war 1 or any future gang war. Sure the demo game has a purpose. But it will not gain any additional support, no extra gangs or anything. It is a dead game only suitable for newbie intros and extremely unvaried and simplified casual play.

I think it is bad to have those dead pages in the book, instead of a separate pamphlet. I guess all will be good when the rulebook is released separately. Then those obsolete pages of the dead demo game will be gone. But I fear the advanced section will remain.

Yeah, well, as I said it will probably depend on wether or not they support it in the coming rulebooks (Gang War 1 doesn't have any support for it, but it doesn't have anything it needs support, as it's only for the stuff released with the box). If they actually include "core box" gang creation rules they will actually be supporting it fully. We do know that GW2 will be including new terrain rules for the ZM games, so there will be some support, at the very least.

We don't know for certain, but I don't think they will prolong the 2 versions of necromunda on top of the already 2 terrain versions. GW2 supporting ZM is a completely different thimg cause ZM is compatible with GW1.

If they would make the very strange and unlikely decision to keep supporting the demo version, we would see pre-filled orlock cards with names and skills sold separately (gw never includes cards in the miniature boxes). And I just don't see GW2 having 2 different sections on how to create an orlock gang, one immensely richer than the other. That can only confuse people further.

Just look at the long list of questions posted in another thread. The rules are full of holes, uncertainties and inconsistencies already. They gonna keep developing 2 versions when they got all that mess to fix just for 1 version? Nobody who were excited about newcromunda in the first place had any interest of the demo version anyway. It was not a feature anyone missed from oldcromunda.

There's not two versions of Necromunda, dagnabbit!

The core rules are the same for both - move, shoot, punch them in the mush.

Zone Mortalis and Industrial Sector both use said core rules, with additions suitable to that environment.

It's one game dude.

Zone Mortalis is also an incredibly cost effective thing for them to continue to expand. Contrast and compare the likely cost of creating new Sector Mechanicus kits, and a new set of say, 6 Zone Mortalis tiles - which are of course double sided. It's also a cheap and effective way for us players to vary our Underhive experiences.

It's two incompatible games

The core rules are shared by both.

Still talking 2d/3d? I'm not.

One game you say? That game got juves or not?

One game? That game got 11 skills or 48 skills?

That one game, it got 2 Houses or 6?

It's not 1 game. It's two games. One will be supported for years to come, one is dead from start.

In case anyone's interested, I've noticed that the Shieldmaidens and the new GW's Escher parts mix decently enough:




They have a bit too much mail, of course, but seeing as how everyone but the juves have armor now, well...

Baxx how about playing a few more games and a bit less complaining.
I've played quite a few games now and had no problems

 Albertorius wrote:
In case anyone's interested, I've noticed that the Shieldmaidens and the new GW's Escher parts mix decently enough:




They have a bit too much mail, of course, but seeing as how everyone but the juves have armor now, well...

They look awesome!

Nice work @Albertorius

Baxx wrote:
It's two incompatible games

The core rules are shared by both.

Still talking 2d/3d? I'm not.

One game you say? That game got juves or not?

One game? That game got 11 skills or 48 skills?

That one game, it got 2 Houses or 6?

It's not 1 game. It's two games. One will be supported for years to come, one is dead from start.

The game is Necromunda Underhive.

Necromunda Underhive has one optional expansion book, with one more coming soon, and the promise of further releases as we go. And in the second book, new tiles for Necromunda Underhive.

So please. Just stop.

Still talking tiles? I'm not talking 2d/3d here.

That one game got juves or not?

I'm just wondering because if we planned to play a game of Necromunda 2017 edition, we could end up showing up with completely incompatible gangs. You could play the game with all the expansions, all the gangs, all the skills and all the weapons. I could end up playing a different version of the same game. A version that only has 2 gangs, no juves, only 11 skills and 15 equipments. A version that will receive no further development, a dead obsolete version.

If you read the Necromunda books, you will find (at least) 2 games, not one. Those two games are incompatible with each other.

The. Juves. Are. An. Expansion. To. Necromunda. Underhive.

What's so difficult to grasp about that?

Is Far Harbor a different game to Fallout 4?

How about Nuka-World?

No. They're not. They're expansions. That they contain stuff not in the main game is their entire point. Jeeebs!

The Juves belong to a complete replacement house list, not expanding on the already existing house lists in the rulebook (they are obsolete). I'm not talking about things that expand, I'm talking about things that replace (equipment, skills, scenarios, prices, house lists). I'll make my arguments in a separate thread, not to pollute this any further.