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What do you think are the best performing units in Astra Militarum and why do you think that? Do they need a specific Regiment to be the best? Do they all work well together?

Holy crap AM have a lot of options.

Conscripts and Commissar obviously /s

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Conscripts and Commissar obviously /s

This has to be sarcasm right?

Yeah AM has so many options that it's units need to be over-costed because you have so much power in list design....J/K - that is the same line people use about space marines though...Maybe with all the AM unit choices listed in front of them they can see that it's a garbage line to take.

I went for the key best units.

Infantry squad - amazing screening/damage/and staying power
Tank Commander - takes the russ to a whole new level
Manticore - just straight up OP undeniable damage

I picked Tank Commander and Maticore as two of mine as well. I think the manticore is just incredibly deadly and the tank commander is versatile in setup and some setups are pretty brutal.

The Guard Infantry Squad is probably the best troop-choice in the game. Extreme durability combined with amazing firepower. Best with tallarn, armageddon and vostroyan. The only negative is that it might be so good that it ends up attracting the attention of the mighty nerfhammer.

Apart from that, I think the mortar squad is ridiculously undercosted at 11 points.

From Forgeworld I think Elysians and the punisher vulture are candidates.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah AM has so many options that it's units need to be over-costed because you have so much power in list design....J/K - that is the same line people use about space marines though...Maybe with all the AM unit choices listed in front of them they can see that it's a garbage line to take.

I went for the key best units.

Infantry squad - amazing screening/damage/and staying power
Tank Commander - takes the russ to a whole new level
Manticore - just straight up OP undeniable damage

I still rate the manticore as one of the best units, but with the points bump it got in chapter approved I don't believe it's "OP" anymore, just "Very Good".

Tank commanders though... worth -every- point. I have had -excellent- performance out of them by kitting them out with sponsons and giving them the Tallarn Doctrine for MASSIVE versatility and firepower.

It's still OP. Manticore is a 175 pt tank. Or more. It's easily better than any predator loadout.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah AM has so many options that it's units need to be over-costed because you have so much power in list design....J/K - that is the same line people use about space marines though...Maybe with all the AM unit choices listed in front of them they can see that it's a garbage line to take.

I went for the key best units.

Infantry squad - amazing screening/damage/and staying power
Tank Commander - takes the russ to a whole new level
Manticore - just straight up OP undeniable damage

I still rate the manticore as one of the best units, but with the points bump it got in chapter approved I don't believe it's "OP" anymore, just "Very Good".

Tank commanders though... worth -every- point. I have had -excellent- performance out of them by kitting them out with sponsons and giving them the Tallarn Doctrine for MASSIVE versatility and firepower.

I'd go catachen when battle cannon. Take las hull and HB sponsons. Nothing wants to get shot at by all of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's still OP. Manticore is a 175 pt tank. Or more. It's easily better than any predator loadout.

Yeah it would be worth 200 if it could shoot turn 4. 175 would be about right for it with only 3 turns of fire. I think its 145 now. LOL.

I picked Company Commanders and Tank Commanders because I don't think the army functions well without them.

Then I picked the best from the following categories:

Anti-Infantry: The Wyvern
Artillery: The Manticore
Anti-Tank: The Shadowsword
Best MBTs: Regular Russ, Demolisher, Executioner

I'd say infantry squads for versatility, Scions for mobility and assassination, mortars (should cost a bit more), Bullgryns (now indirectly balanced by the CA Astropath nerf), Special weapons squads for being cheap and relatively reliable, Leman Russes. I still prefer Basilisks to Manticores, but they are both good.

Wyverns sadly suck, everybody who plays AM knows it. Just compare them to mortars point per point. Quit this nonsense please.

Tank Commanders *can* be good in certain limited builds/armies, but definitely they are not always worth a huge +40 pts over a normal LR, simply because they die just as easily. If you take one - or even two - you are just helping your opponent with target selection, and the more pts you invest there with sponsons etc. the greater the favour. Normal LR are just good for their cost most of the times.

Catachans and Tallarn are often considered the best regiments, although that is situational and depends on playstyle. Cadians are strong mainly for their orders and relic, but relatively easily countered and boring as hell to play (static).

I see nothing overpowered above anyway, at the current state of the game. Are you also interested in a list of units that suck?

Martel732 wrote:
It's still OP. Manticore is a 175 pt tank. Or more. It's easily better than any predator loadout.

A predator will do an average of 5.18 unsaved wounds to a russ, a Manticore will do an average of 3.11. Please explain how 40% less firepower means it should cost 175 pts? Even with the range, it should cost nowhere near as much as a lascannon predator, especially with SM access to rerolls of all hits from girlyman. And then there's Sergeant Chronus...

Manticores at 175 or 200pts...guys, theyre solid, but thats absurd. Theyre not doing any more damage to most targets than a Battlecannon Russ (probably notably less if we're bringing hull and sponson weapons into play at least some of the time), theyre easier to kill than a Russ, are less effective on the move than a Russ, and arent hurting anything after turn 4. Their only upside is that they dont need LoS, which I'm not saying is worthless, it's not, but it doesn't make it worth as much or more than a fully kitted out LRBT either. That's ridiculous.

With respect to Predators, a Manticore certainly not better than any loadout, that's absurd.

It's not matching a Predator for anti tank firepower output (3.11 wounds per turn on average for the Manticore versus 5.19 wounds per turn from a quadlas Predator, both against T8 or lower 3+sv vehicles), and a Predator Destructor with heavy bolters is killing more single wound infantry on average than a Manticore is (2.92 guardsmen or 1.94 Marines for the Manticore versus 4.07 guardsmen or 2.22 Marines for the Predator).

It's only against multiwound heavy infantry without strong invul saves that the Manticore has any advantage over a Predator.

While there are stand-out units that are especially powerful, it's their combination that makes them so effective.

Artillery without Infantry Screens would be worthless, with opponents pin-point deep striking.

Artillery + Static Infantry can't go out to claim objectves. While some may claim this setup could clear the board, I don't think it can do it reliably, so you need to add some advancing units.

Artillery + Static Infantry + Scions = Very good. Scions have excellent damage output, can drop where needed, and are cheap enough to be expendable, when necessary. Excellent diversions.

Artillery + Static Infantry + Leman Russ + Advancing Screen Infantry is incredibly RELIABLE in what it can do. You can protect your deployment zone, and advance to centre, denying advancement opportunities to your opponent, denying any possibility they can disable your Artillery / gain control of DZ objectives.

Artillery + Static Infantry + Russ + Adv Screen Inf + Scions = best of all possible worlds. This setup is doable at 1500 points, though it is tight. Include some Single Sentinels and you can run a Brigade detachment for a million CP. This is a "control" list, that denies your opponent the ability to bring their strengths to bear. It happens to also be strong offensively, which is what makes it broken. The bitter irony is that it is also easily a non-spam list, using elements from all FOC slots to build a strong whole.

And there are a ton of variations on how you do this, exactly. Plasma Scions are awesome, but Melta Scions still have a place. Advancing Infantry love a Flamer and Plasma Pistol. Sit-Still infantry like a Plasmagun and Heavy. Bolter Sarge let's him stand out for one point...

Russes with different load-outs. Sentinels with weapons of choice. The specifics aren't as important as just choosing something reasonable for the job.

And then baneblades sit in the corner and cry, having more of a place in soup lists than in regular Guard lists.



More seriously, they're just an easily-killed trio of russes (though also considerably cheaper).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And then baneblades sit in the corner and cry, having more of a place in soup lists than in regular Guard lists.



More seriously, they're just an easily-killed trio of russes (though also considerably cheaper).

Tell that to an outflanking Tallarn Baneblade with a Trojan support vehicle giving it rerolls heh.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And then baneblades sit in the corner and cry, having more of a place in soup lists than in regular Guard lists.



More seriously, they're just an easily-killed trio of russes (though also considerably cheaper).

Tell that to an outflanking Tallarn Baneblade with a Trojan support vehicle giving it rerolls heh.

There's not much that can do that a Catachan baneblade couldn't do without a Trojan as well - considering you can't outflank the Trojan and the Baneblade at the same time.

Unless you're really obsessed with getting that Demolisher Cannon in range...

It sounds like I really need to get a Manticore or two in my army!

M.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Manticores at 175 or 200pts...guys, theyre solid, but thats absurd. Theyre not doing any more damage to most targets than a Battlecannon Russ (probably notably less if we're bringing hull and sponson weapons into play at least some of the time), theyre easier to kill than a Russ, are less effective on the move than a Russ, and arent hurting anything after turn 4. Their only upside is that they dont need LoS, which I'm not saying is worthless, it's not, but it doesn't make it worth as much or more than a fully kitted out LRBT either. That's ridiculous.

With respect to Predators, a Manticore certainly not better than any loadout, that's absurd.

It's not matching a Predator for anti tank firepower output (3.11 wounds per turn on average for the Manticore versus 5.19 wounds per turn from a quadlas Predator, both against T8 or lower 3+sv vehicles), and a Predator Destructor with heavy bolters is killing more single wound infantry on average than a Manticore is (2.92 guardsmen or 1.94 Marines for the Manticore versus 4.07 guardsmen or 2.22 Marines for the Predator).

It's only against multiwound heavy infantry without strong invul saves that the Manticore has any advantage over a Predator.

Ignoring LoS should cost something, too.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Manticores at 175 or 200pts...guys, theyre solid, but thats absurd. Theyre not doing any more damage to most targets than a Battlecannon Russ (probably notably less if we're bringing hull and sponson weapons into play at least some of the time), theyre easier to kill than a Russ, are less effective on the move than a Russ, and arent hurting anything after turn 4. Their only upside is that they dont need LoS, which I'm not saying is worthless, it's not, but it doesn't make it worth as much or more than a fully kitted out LRBT either. That's ridiculous.

With respect to Predators, a Manticore certainly not better than any loadout, that's absurd.

It's not matching a Predator for anti tank firepower output (3.11 wounds per turn on average for the Manticore versus 5.19 wounds per turn from a quadlas Predator, both against T8 or lower 3+sv vehicles), and a Predator Destructor with heavy bolters is killing more single wound infantry on average than a Manticore is (2.92 guardsmen or 1.94 Marines for the Manticore versus 4.07 guardsmen or 2.22 Marines for the Predator).

It's only against multiwound heavy infantry without strong invul saves that the Manticore has any advantage over a Predator.

Ignoring LoS should cost something, too.

Relative to say, a Battlecannon Russ with a hull heavy bolter, theyre not too badly priced. The Russ tank is 152pts, a Manticore is 143pts with a hull heavy bolter, a 9pt difference.

The Russ is hardier, is better at moving and shooting, can receive tank orders, can be taken in multiples per each FoC slot (which has some flexibility value for detachment finagling), can fire after turn 4, has largely identical damage output against most targets, and the Russ can be given much more additional firepower through hull and sponson upgrades.

The Manticore can fire out of LoS, thats its only advantage over the Russ, the value of which depends heavily on table setup. Its valuable, I'm not denying that, but the Manticore's cost doesn't really appear to be out of line with other tanks given their other advantages.

175 or 200pts for a Manticore in such light is inappropriate. The Manticore is right about where it should be. It's dramatically inferior to a battle tank in every way, except that it doesn't need LoS, the value of which is situational, and they still cost almost as much as said battle tanks. It would appear they are paying for not needing LoS, or they'd need to be a whole lot cheaper, being inferior in every other way.

Sounds like the Russ is too cheap, too.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like the Russ is too cheap, too.

You know we've had exactly this discussion before right? I can even link you the thread to save the page-space here.

One day you will realize that asserting incorrect points over and over again does not make them more true.

Assuming they are incorrect. I don't remember any discussions about the Leman Russ tank.

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming they are incorrect. I don't remember any discussions about the Leman Russ tank.

At least pages 7 and 8 in this thread; right around there, Vakathi and I start talking with Xenomancers and Slayerfan about the Predator and your posts are right in among them.

That was primarily the thread I was thinking about. There's also the Predator vs Leman Russ argument on the New AM FAQ thread, but it's mostly fluff-related and has no math, aside from baseless assertions from Xenomancers that the Predator is beaten by the Russ and baseless assertions by Vakathi that it's the other way around. The math for Vakathi is vindicated in the thread I linked you - the predator outperforms the LRBT.

Oh yeah, I ignored all that because I don't see many Russes.

The question is whether it outperforms it by 50 pts? That seems unlikely.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh yeah, I ignored all that because I don't see many Russes.

The question is whether it outperforms it by 50 pts? That seems unlikely.

Good thing the Leman Russ Annihilator is only 8 points cheaper than the Predator Annihilator then. (And the Basic Russ is 38 points cheaper, but only performs half as well).

Okay does it outperform it by 38 pts?

Martel732 wrote:
Okay does it outperform it by 38 pts?

If you're comparing the directly comparable Predator Annihilator and Leman Russ Annihilator, they're only 8 pts different. But if you're comparing them against the Predator's primary target, the base Russ:

Leman Russ Battle Tank using Grinding Advance:
Main Armament: 7 shots, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, 1.17 past saves, for a total of 2.33 average damage
Heavy Bolter: 3 shots, 1.5 hits, .5 wounds, .25 after saves, for a total of .25 wounds

Total: 2.57 wounds for 152 points, or ~59 points per wound inflicted


Predator Annihilator with nothing:
Main Armament: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, .74 past saves, for a total of 2.59 damage
Sponsons: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, .74 past saves, for a total of 2.59 damage.

Total: 5.18 wounds for 190 points, or ~37 points per wound inflicted

The BA pred annhiliator is 200, but that doesn't really change much.

Martel732 wrote:
The BA pred annhiliator is 200, but that doesn't really change much.

Yeah, I suppose not.

Interestingly, I decided to do the math on the Leman Russ versus the Predator against the LRBT's favorite target: Tactical Marines! (Since before it was against the Predator's favorite target!)

Leman Russ:
Main armament: 7 shots, 3.5 hits, 2.91 wounds, 1.94 wounds after saves (1.94 dead marines)
Heavy Bolter: 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, .5 wounds after saves (.5 dead marines)

Total: 2.44 dead marines (62.9 points per wound)

Predator Annihilator:
Main Armament: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, .925 dead marines after saves
Sponson guns: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, .925 dead marines after saves

Total: 1.9 dead marines (100 points per wound)

So perhaps unsurprisingly, the tank that's 50% worse against vehicles is ~50% better against infantry.

That's actually pretty neato, and I think shows that the Russ is in a good spot. What do you think?