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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, I know the reason.

And trust me, I think FW is fine the way it is.

But seeing it in stores will shut all the people up who somehow can't figure out online ordering in 2018.

It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Its a very common rule, because they want to prevent people from bringing BS like the falcion super heavy tank that has 2 volcano cannons on it to just obliterate units a turn. Or cheeky stuff like taking quad batteries that allow you to fill out detachments for a cheap easy +3 command points.

But more broken stuff from GW codex is allright because...well just cause some people are sore whiners who want to ban stuff that they don't have regardless of balance.

A lot of it comes down to old school thinking as well. Back years ago Forge world models were like the elite line of models, they look amazing but we're just more expensive and better detailed versions of things in the current line. The avatar of khaine comes to mind when thinking of a forgeworld model I would love to own.

But then they started coming out as a kind of expansion pack kind of thing. And I think that's where the hang up now days comes from. Fw is looked at as "expanded universe" or "expansion units" that some players just don't want or like. And maybe that's why no fw tournaments still exist? Because of the stigma. But it's like a lot of things, changing people's opinions on things they considered to be a long time belief can be very hard to do if they are not open to the idea that they may be wrong or that the situation has changed.

 Polonius wrote:
I think as long as GW won't even sell the basic FW rules outside of the FW mail order sales stream, there is going to be a wariness of them.

People say that banning FW is "arbitrary," when it of course is anything but. It's based on the difficulty in buying the rules and models, and the way FW itself brands itself as a niche product.

Bwahahahahaha buying rules for FW is actually EASIER than GW rules. Just as easy to buy individual book, less books to buy.

In Chapter Approved, the points hikes clearly moved nearly all of the FW big stuff into the realm of power level only, which means out of matched play.

Yeah. GW marketing ploy to ensure gamers buy plastic rather than less profitable resin. Nothing to do with balance.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:


Why is that a bad reason? 40k is a game of open information, right?

You have same chance to get FW rules and getting all FW rules is lot cheaper than getting all GW codex rules. IF you aren't interested don't complain about opponent having units you don't know rules. Should I demand ban dark reapers because I don't have eldar codex?

I think there are lots of reasons, many of them aren't that good nor stand up to reason.

One reason, I think, is it can change the meta.

When there are one or two over powered armies, with specific OP units, it is relatively easy to plan for the tournament.

When you add in Forgeworld, not that it is any more unbalanced than the rest of 40k, there is more to consider, and it becomes harder to write 'all comers' lists. The players who like to have everything planned in advance don't like that.

Personally, I'd love to see a Forgeworld only tournament, just for the sake of difference!

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
their search is terrible

You know that FW uses the exact same store interface as "main GW", right?

and many kits sell weapons and bodies separately so a player needs to know what to look for

Kind of like how GW's plastic kits rarely come with all the parts you need, and you have to buy the weapons separately?

You do know I can buy gw kits off other sites right which negates your whole argument. If the GW site were the only online source of GW you might have a point, but it is not.

Again all gw kits have all the parts you need to make said model. They may lack a specific weapon option (though they are writing some of that out of the game). But there exists no kit which requires another purchase to make a unit. This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

Breng77 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
their search is terrible

You know that FW uses the exact same store interface as "main GW", right?

and many kits sell weapons and bodies separately so a player needs to know what to look for

Kind of like how GW's plastic kits rarely come with all the parts you need, and you have to buy the weapons separately?

You do know I can buy gw kits off other sites right which negates your whole argument. If the GW site were the only online source of GW you might have a point, but it is not.

sort of, most have to do it by phone or something weird like excel spreadsheet ordering, you cant be a webstore with a shopping cart and sell GW merchandise directly through there, hence why outfits like TheWarStore do phone orders for GW.

This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

This is typically done so people only have to pay for the exact items they want as the parts are more expensive from FW and they keep the cost down by not just including everything.


As noted, lots of boxes still lack complete weapons options/upgrades/etc. Box contents consistently containing everything the rules allow is a relatively recent development that doesnt extend to everything.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Man, you've been to some bad GWs. The only one in my area has painted FW models displayed in store, allows you to use whatever you want (short of a model made mostly of third party bits).

Imagine, if you will:

You're playing in a GW store. You have four thousand dollars in spending money from your deployment, and you want to get more Warhammer 40k stuff.

You're on a table, with some other guy that wants to show you how to really use that Deathwatch army you've got. You're playing through the game, having fun...

...and here comes Skurky McSalesdude after every turn.

"So I see you have X and Y, have you taken a look at the Z? Do you want me to put it up front for you with some brushes and paint?"

EVERY. DAMNED. TURN.

Imagine now, taking $4000 and going across town to spend it at the FLGS instead.

If the guy had been like, "Hey, I see what you're doing. If you really want to flesh out this army, it would help to add in some [insert models]. They can really add the blah blah blah blah", I'd have bought stuff. But he was acting more like an overbearing 'just buy this thing' guy than a GW representative that cared about the game.

Oh, this hasn't just happened once. It's happened at every GW store I've been to except one. Pushy, pushy, pushy- I've walked in with a literal shopping list and they still keep trying to shove unrelated stuff on me.
]

This gak right here is why I avoid GW stores if possible. Obviously sometimes I go in for say exclusive models like the Tribune or such or certain paints but yeah.

I did a 6 month stretch in a GW ten years ago and not only was I forced to shove stuff down peoples throat ALL THE TIME, I had to do it to people who had no interest in it. I had to push collectors edition Fantasy books on people who hated fantasy, or LotR on people who only played 40k or Fantasy. Meet those quotas, sell sell sell. We actually lost one of our best customers who would regularly drop a grand a month on stuff because my Manager told him he could not use his Dark Eldar army in the store because it used 3rd party bits to make the old units look good. We never saw him again and he took all that income and his friends to a 3rd party shop down the road.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

By that logic, you could randomly ban just about anything with equal justification. "Our tournament bans Space Marines because Storm Ravens and Girlyman are OP and SM as a whole have too many units to pick from, so you will now know what to better expect."

@lunawolvesloyalist:

wrong thread. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747159.page

I can order most GW stuff off Amazon without phone ordering, or eBay (new) without phone ordering, in fact I think what you are saying is no longer the case. I just went to the warstore and FLG pages and can add GW items to my cart. So many more options and much easier.

As for why they split models up, it still requires buying multiple kits just to field something, so the reason is irrelevant.

Again that is not a reason to ban FW, but one of the largest reasons I think FW has trouble gaining traction is that those in favor of its inclusion want to pretend that absolutely no difference exists between it and the regular line. That simply is not true.

If your area bans it maybe you try to convince allowing it in a limited amount so that people can become accustomed to it, see that it isn't (or is) a big deal and then move on to more inclusion.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

By that logic, you could randomly ban just about anything with equal justification. "Our tournament bans Space Marines because Storm Ravens and Girlyman are OP and SM as a whole have too many units to pick from, so you will now know what to better expect."

I think you are missing the point. Banning forge world is essentially a lite ban on LOW so people can play a skirmish game without having to run into a scorpion or arch daemon. Do you disagree that FW is the source of most Super heavies and titans? If you really want to play Titans or super heavies...you have these few options from the codex/index and people can prepare for those.

You see a lot of tournaments do a wound limit or point per model limit...it's really no different. It's just tournament parameters. If you don't like them - don't play in the tournament. It's just easier to ban FW for some TO I guess.

If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW. (Not that you should do that either.)

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

How are they problems? What FW LOW is causing issues after Chapter Approved?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

How are they problems? What FW LOW is causing issues after Chapter Approved?

I wasn't talking about specific cases just speaking in general. I know Chapter approved gutted a lot of super heavies however at the same time also reduced the cost of a lot of things. I'm not even sure we are talking about a tournament here that is running CA.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

Well boohoo: We are talking about banning stuff arbitrarily anyway. You also have failed to point out the problem units.

Also, I say this in general about banning classes of things in tournaments: don't. It is completely stupid and causes more problems than it solves. If there truly are some problem units, then address those, not other units that happen to share a battlefield role or manufacturing department of GW with the OP unit. And even then, you still probably should not ban the problem unit, just adjust the point cost so people can at least use their expensive, painstakingly built and painted toys.

 Xenomancers wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more of an issue of international shipping cost and wait time. I know you can get around the shipping cost if you spend a certain amount of money but some people just want the books which wont qualify for free shipping.

Well, then you'd think the tournaments would bar things like Sisters of Battle. If 'it's expensive and difficult to get and takes a long time' is an argument, then let's apply it universally.

Im not saying it's a reason that it should be banned. Just explaining where the stigma against forge world comes from. The reason you ban FW is to eliminate 90% of the super heavies in the game to go along with probably 20 or so OP units. It makes the game more manageable. There will still be OP units but you have a better chance to know what to expect from opponents.

By that logic, you could randomly ban just about anything with equal justification. "Our tournament bans Space Marines because Storm Ravens and Girlyman are OP and SM as a whole have too many units to pick from, so you will now know what to better expect."

I think you are missing the point. Banning forge world is essentially a lite ban on LOW so people can play a skirmish game without having to run into a scorpion or arch daemon. Do you disagree that FW is the source of most Super heavies and titans? If you really want to play Titans or super heavies...you have these few options from the codex/index and people can prepare for those.

You see a lot of tournaments do a wound limit or point per model limit...it's really no different. It's just tournament parameters. If you don't like them - don't play in the tournament. It's just easier to ban FW for some TO I guess.

no, they just have to worry about actual more point-efficient superheavies, like knights, or baneblade variants. banning FW stopped being a soft-superheavy ban a LOOOOONG time ago.

 Grimgold wrote:
You know there is another reason why FLGS ban forgeworld, and it might be the most important of them, they don't make money off of forge world. Tournaments are a form of advertisement, you see the units that look cool on the tabletop and have fun rules, and then you can purchase them from the store. Forge world is like advertising for someone competing with you.

Should we ban OOP models and conversions too? The FLGS doesn't sell either of them too...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

It makes marines nowhere near unplayable, I just won a (small) tournament over the weekend using marines sans guilliman.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think you are missing the point. Banning forge world is essentially a lite ban on LOW so people can play a skirmish game without having to run into a scorpion or arch daemon. Do you disagree that FW is the source of most Super heavies and titans? If you really want to play Titans or super heavies...you have these few options from the codex/index and people can prepare for those.

You see a lot of tournaments do a wound limit or point per model limit...it's really no different. It's just tournament parameters. If you don't like them - don't play in the tournament. It's just easier to ban FW for some TO I guess.

Is there some force other than "I don't have the money" preventing people from buying the same Forge World models and books as I have? There isn't.

It's not my fault another player can't afford something or buy a book to 'prepare' for a model I bought. If they want to 'prepare' for it they can do a little bit of work on Google. Tournaments shouldn't cater to idiots.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
You know there is another reason why FLGS ban forgeworld, and it might be the most important of them, they don't make money off of forge world. Tournaments are a form of advertisement, you see the units that look cool on the tabletop and have fun rules, and then you can purchase them from the store. Forge world is like advertising for someone competing with you.

Should we ban OOP models and conversions too? The FLGS doesn't sell either of them too...

I see you creeping on my name I'm, watching you

OOP models aren't advertising for someone that is competing for your income, and most look pretty duffy compared with modern ones. Conversions is a trickier subject, but even FLG, which doesn't have a dog in the fight, limits it to reasonable proxies (and like it or not a proxy is what a conversion is). Convert a biker to be a chaplain on a bike, and it looks like a chaplain on a bike, more power to you, Take this Guy toss an aquilion on him and try to pass it as a chaplain and any reasonable TO will show you the door. Once again though conversions are probably not competing for your dollar, since they will likely be conversion of one GW thing into another thing.

Breng77 wrote:
Again all gw kits have all the parts you need to make said model. They may lack a specific weapon option (though they are writing some of that out of the game). But there exists no kit which requires another purchase to make a unit. This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

Only if you want to lose every game you play. Playing IG? Better buy some conversion parts to give your veterans/command squads/SWS/etc full loads of plasma/melta, if you build them with just the contents of the kit you have a trash unit that should never appear in anything but a joke list. For all practical purposes you are required to buy multiple kits to assemble a single unit, just like FW models. And at least the FW kits make it clear that you're buying the body and arms separately, while most of GW's plastic kits contain no notification at all that you're going to have to buy extra conversion parts to do anything useful with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights.

So what? Why is it ok to ban my DKoK army, but not imperial knights?

Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good.

Yeah, with the exception of the blatantly overpowered LoW (coincidentally belonging to one of the strongest armies in general) they just aren't that good. What an obvious statement to make.

Plus, what happened to your claim that it's about letting people play a skirmish game without massive models? If it's about the skirmish theme then rules strength shouldn't matter. Even a superheavy tank with weak rules is still a superheavy tank in your "skirmish" game, and plenty of people dislike the addition of flyers/LoW/tank spam/etc regardless of which GW brand logo is on the package.

As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

No, the problem children are in the IG codex.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you want to ban LOW, then ban LOW.

If you do that you ban a GW army - Imperial knights. Plus really with the exception of the baneblade (varients) - GW titans/super heavies aren't that good. You'd also make space marines unplayable as you take away their best unit. Ad mech is basically an army deisnged to run an imperial knight as well. As usual - the real problem children are in forge world.

How are they problems? What FW LOW is causing issues after Chapter Approved?

I wasn't talking about specific cases just speaking in general. I know Chapter approved gutted a lot of super heavies however at the same time also reduced the cost of a lot of things. I'm not even sure we are talking about a tournament here that is running CA.

Can you name a specific case, though? Because unless you can name AT LEAST one, your point is totally invalid. And even then, I'd bet that for every FW broken unit you can name, GW has at least two.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Most people with a FW model will tell you the rules when they use them, and not a second earlier.

After all, springing unexpected rules on unsuspecting opponents is part of the power of FW models.

And same goes for GW codexes that are too expensive for most people to own them all. Hell GW has MORE codexes to buy than FW so you are more likely to have access to all FW rules than GW rules.

Again every arqument used applies to GW codexes or even more so.

Except one.
You can have a tournament without FW to lessen complexity, general rule problems (balance, unclear and non-functional rules, worse FAQ support), rule piracy, proxies/questionable conversions for the cheese of the month and so on.
You cannot have tournament without GW rules.

 Jidmah wrote:
You cannot have tournament without GW rules.

Sure you can. "Tyranids, SoB, Tau, Ultramarines, and Eldar are banned". Simpler game, fewer rule problems, less incentive for proxying, fewer questionable conversions for cheese of the month (how many counts-as Guilliman abominations do we need, anyway), and so on.

We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

No, it isn't.