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You may also want to look at the GK dread from FW it's a much better buy point for point than either of the dreads in the GK codex.

 Crazyterran wrote:
By god! No pants or teeth brushing!?

Sky-pe? Is this some sort of daemon summoning book!?

Next you'll tell me we have large, pad like devices that are now fairly cheap, and can show Forge Worlds rules in an easily readable format!

Would you be shocked if I told you that even a SPACE WOLF could do this without a Tech-Priest?

And these devices that display the rules in an easy format, the sacred devices that can show this text... can fit into your POCKET. And if one searches the 'Google Images', one can even find the data for these holy relics from Forge World!

The Emperor bless us, these truly are miraculous times!

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
By god! No pants or teeth brushing!?

Sky-pe? Is this some sort of daemon summoning book!?

Next you'll tell me we have large, pad like devices that are now fairly cheap, and can show Forge Worlds rules in an easily readable format!

Would you be shocked if I told you that even a SPACE WOLF could do this without a Tech-Priest?

And these devices that display the rules in an easy format, the sacred devices that can show this text... can fit into your POCKET. And if one searches the 'Google Images', one can even find the data for these holy relics from Forge World!

The Emperor bless us, these truly are miraculous times!

What kinda of sorcery is this! Have you gone mad!? Devices that fit in my pocket that can seek out relics of old that are inscribed with the ancient scrawlings of the one we call 'Forgeworld'. Pish posh!

 chimeara wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

One of my local TO's still bans FW because of the Fire Raptors. That's pretty much it. He says there are other "issues" as well but won't glean that information.

Then limit fire raptors?

I remember in an old edition of fantasy, tournaments used to put limits on how many steam tanks, hydras and so on you could take, rather than simply banning 'rares'.

Why punish weak armies, like orcs and beastmen for having cheap rares, because dark elves and empire have problem units?

I feel it is the same for 40k and FW; be specific in limitations instead of hurting everyone. TOs needn't feel bad for singling out models they don't want to see (too many of) at their tournament. Players can always vote with their feet.

Martel732 wrote:
My base list is from before the BA codex, and so my captain just stands in a gunline. Real unique, I now.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/62/37/ba/6237ba14df0b7448c6e9e5edf86a89a1.jpg

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.

In my 10 years of playing WH40k I have met two players who had both the forgeworld models and the rulebooks to match.
Almost every other player using forgeworld was proxying some random model or using a cheaper third party model or bulked up a GW model with bits as something that battlescribe let them add to their list, often with no rulebooks whatsoever, neither GW nor FW.
Heck, look into any tactics thread. No one will advise people to actually buy FW models to improve lists. They will advise scratch-building them or using some other model instead.

Requiring the actual rules and the actual FW models would pretty much be the same as banning FW for 99% of the players. Maybe it's the better option since that one DKOK guy doesn't get screwed and all others can simply be told to stop bitching and actually pay FW for their work.

IMHO the only reason to use Forgeworld should be because you want to use one of their models. If you are not using their models, you should not be allowed to use their rules.

This is a proxy issue, not a Forgeworld issue.

The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

OLDSCL wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.

In my 10 years of playing WH40k I have met two players who had both the forgeworld models and the rulebooks to match.
Almost every other player using forgeworld was proxying some random model or using a cheaper third party model or bulked up a GW model with bits as something that battlescribe let them add to their list, often with no rulebooks whatsoever, neither GW nor FW.
Heck, look into any tactics thread. No one will advise people to actually buy FW models to improve lists. They will advise scratch-building them or using some other model instead.

Requiring the actual rules and the actual FW models would pretty much be the same as banning FW for 99% of the players. Maybe it's the better option since that one DKOK guy doesn't get screwed and all others can simply be told to stop bitching and actually pay FW for their work.

IMHO the only reason to use Forgeworld should be because you want to use one of their models. If you are not using their models, you should not be allowed to use their rules.

This is a proxy issue, not a Forgeworld issue.

Literally everyone at my local has the rules for FW.

I'm surprised that Tournys let people run proxys at all to be fair.

Friendly games for playtesting. Wrong hobby for being poor and playing with milk cartons long term.

Most dont let you, its just really hard to tell when some 3rs parties are just as good as FW for 1/2 the cost. Once painted you cant tell.

 chimeara wrote:
The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

I presume you are OK for banning 3rd party and proxy models for GW codex stuff then? No 3rd party IG infantry etc. Assault cannon razorbacks must be all official kits with no converting etc.

Yeah... its a hobby 1st you know, Proxies are part of that hobby. I mean Recasts are 1 thing, proxies another.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

OLDSCL wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.

In my 10 years of playing WH40k I have met two players who had both the forgeworld models and the rulebooks to match.
Almost every other player using forgeworld was proxying some random model or using a cheaper third party model or bulked up a GW model with bits as something that battlescribe let them add to their list, often with no rulebooks whatsoever, neither GW nor FW.
Heck, look into any tactics thread. No one will advise people to actually buy FW models to improve lists. They will advise scratch-building them or using some other model instead.

Requiring the actual rules and the actual FW models would pretty much be the same as banning FW for 99% of the players. Maybe it's the better option since that one DKOK guy doesn't get screwed and all others can simply be told to stop bitching and actually pay FW for their work.

IMHO the only reason to use Forgeworld should be because you want to use one of their models. If you are not using their models, you should not be allowed to use their rules.

This is a proxy issue, not a Forgeworld issue.

Literally everyone at my local has the rules for FW.

How many of those are using actual FW models as well?

Serious units? all of them, fun overcosted units that you play time to time? 3rd parties.

I like the Tantalus and i like using it so i bought it.
I like the model for the dimachaeron, but its rules are literally trash and you should never play one, so i 3rd party it only to have the model, i'm not paying 130$ for a model i might use once a year in a friendly game.


Our Eldar player bought all the Eldar tanks he plays as well (he has like 4-5?).
One of our guys has like 4k USD in titans lol.

I did tho get Corsair kits 3rd party, but that was b.c FW stop selling them for over 2yrs. Thats not my fault (I have the emails if you want to see) i tried to buy them for a year, but after over a year i went 3rd party.

 Jidmah wrote:
How many of those are using actual FW models as well?

Since you are so intent on banning FW models unless you use official model guess you are also equally vehemently against GW codex units being kitbashed or bought 3rd party?

If not then that's double standard. What applies to FW applies to GW models.

tneva82 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

I presume you are OK for banning 3rd party and proxy models for GW codex stuff then? No 3rd party IG infantry etc. Assault cannon razorbacks must be all official kits with no converting etc.

All hail to the master of moving goal posts and exaggeration. Suddenly using wargear options from another box (land raider upgrade sprue) is the same as using a box of cultists as two supreme command detachments of malefic lords.

Many GW stores do ban 3rd party models, you know.

Besides, if you don't like the models, and the rules aren't better than GW stuff, why are you bringing FW to a tournament in the first place?
The amount of false pretense in this thread is sickening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
How many of those are using actual FW models as well?

Since you are so intent on banning FW models unless you use official model guess you are also equally vehemently against GW codex units being kitbashed or bought 3rd party?

If not then that's double standard. What applies to FW applies to GW models.

1. Please provide an exact quote of what you have just put in my mouth.

2. Forgeworld is an expansion to WH40k that the majority of WH40k players are not using, just like Death from the Skies or Apocalypse. No amount of logical fallacies and personal attacks on your part will change that. Expansions can be left out of a game.

 Jidmah wrote:
All hail to the master of moving goal posts and exaggeration. Suddenly using wargear options from another box (land raider upgrade sprue) is the same as using a box of cultists as two supreme command detachments of malefic lords.

Many GW stores do ban 3rd party models, you know.

Besides, if you don't like the models, and the rules aren't better than GW stuff, why are you bringing FW to a tournament in the first place?
The amount of false pretense in this thread is sickening.

If store bans 3rd party models for GW codex stuff then that's another thing. However rules must be handled SAME WAY whether it's FW or GW unit.

Anybody that allows scratch build/3rd party for GW codex units but not on FW is just TFG WAAC player.

Either ban those for both codexes or neither. Those are only appropriate solutions.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

I presume you are OK for banning 3rd party and proxy models for GW codex stuff then? No 3rd party IG infantry etc. Assault cannon razorbacks must be all official kits with no converting etc.

All hail to the master of moving goal posts and exaggeration. Suddenly using wargear options from another box (land raider upgrade sprue) is the same as using a box of cultists as two supreme command detachments of malefic lords.

Many GW stores do ban 3rd party models, you know.

Besides, if you don't like the models, and the rules aren't better than GW stuff, why are you bringing FW to a tournament in the first place?
The amount of false pretense in this thread is sickening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
How many of those are using actual FW models as well?

Since you are so intent on banning FW models unless you use official model guess you are also equally vehemently against GW codex units being kitbashed or bought 3rd party?

If not then that's double standard. What applies to FW applies to GW models.

1. Please provide an exact quote of what you have just put in my mouth.

2. Forgeworld is an expansion to WH40k that the majority of WH40k players are not using, just like Death from the Skies or Apocalypse. No amount of logical fallacies and personal attacks on your part will change that. Expansions can be left out of a game.

Some of the units are more fun to play, or has a different style you like, or even just the looks, you know this game is about fun.
Tournaments are more about rock/paper/scissors lists anyways. You can take a good list with 1 fun unit and still win against netlists b.c you played better or got better match ups.


FW is not like DFTS or Apoc those are entirely different rule sets that are fully optional, FW is 100% GW approve.

DFTS is part of the basic rule book. How is FW more part of the game than rules from the rulebook itself?

No.. it official was a 2 page amendment (57-58) the rest was optional.

Please remind where I can find a reference to how forgeworld is supposed to be handled in games of 40k?

In the FW rules index's...... its on page 4 "Introduction"

Edit: Also here https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-your-questions-answeredgw-homepage-post-2/

GW even stated it a few times (cant find tho, but i bet someone else can) that FW is 100% approve.

I can play it like you do and ask you "Where does it say GW only Codex's/index's?"

 Jidmah wrote:

2. Forgeworld is an expansion to WH40k that the majority of WH40k players are not using, just like Death from the Skies or Apocalypse. No amount of logical fallacies and personal attacks on your part will change that. Expansions can be left out of a game.

There's nothing in the rules (either the core rulebook or the FW books) that make this distinction. The idea that FW is some separate thing that needs the secret handshake to use and isn't supposed to be a normal part of the game is one that is entirely created in the minds of a subset of the players, not from GW's rules.

It's more of a thing of the past. In the dark ages GW used to say that FW while legally a subdivision wasn't meant to be part of the GW scene except to provide "show models". (This is obvious paraphrasing).
It's only been recently that GW has accepted FW as it's child and openly embraced FW as an acceptable model in its games.

For space marines. Levithan dreads are far superior to space marine dreads. Heck even mortis dreads are superior to space marine codex dreads. And as superior I mean - they perform better for their points. Even the new Redemptor Dread is a joke compared to a Leviathan.
Fire raptors - same sotry
Sicrians - same story
cheap fast attack gun turrets - who needs devastators I can just spam heavy bolter sentry turrets in fast attack.
Many of the LR varients put the god-hammer pattern to shame (because they are just god hammers with invo saves and additional weapons for barely any point increase)

Just take a look at the Space marine tactics form. Every other page is people saying "I think we need to use forge world to compete"

Levithan's cost more points then a Land Raider. I would expect it to perform better when it costs twice as much as a Space Marine Dreadnaught.

Fire Raptors are equivalent to Storm Ravens; Storm Ravens are cheaper then Fire Raptors now, but GW had to change the rules about winning the game with flyers to nerf them. I'd actually argue that Storm Ravens are probably better as they are a transport and have a wider range of weapons load out.

Sicaran Tanks in their base configuration are cheaper then Predators, but as soon as you start adding weapons, they ballon in cost. In 7th edition, yes a Sicaran was flat out better then a Predator. In 8th? They are the same.

Fast Attack Gun Turrets that only hit on a 5+ and can only shoot at the closest enemy unit. And they can't move, or take/hold objectives.

Land Raiders- they're Land Raiders. They swap out heavy weapons for transportation or less powerful weapons. That argument is kind of a wash.

A TO can run a tournament how ever they want. You, as a player, don't have to play in it. There is no reason why, in my mind, that Forge World should be excluded from a 40K tournament. There are no logical arguments against it.

 chimeara wrote:
The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

Everyone should have actual rules to use any units. FW or not. Tournament or not.

How are you supposed to play the game with only one player's attempt at remembering the datasheets? (and battlescribe print outs can't be trusted to be correct)

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

Everyone should have actual rules to use any units. FW or not. Tournament or not.

How are you supposed to play the game with only one player's attempt at remembering the datasheets? (and battlescribe print outs can't be trusted to be correct)

From my experience, that is a primary issue with folks using FW. They don't have the actual rules and/or proxy FW models. It makes some folks a bit skeptical as to what they are facing when they don't have the opportunity to see the rules for their opponent's army or the proxy is really a poor attempt to avoid time-effort-money in order to build a harder list.

 Sarigar wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
The one local tournament I played let's FW and proxies for FW provided you have the rules. Not just a Battlescribe printout, but actual rules.

I like the idea of banning proxies and third party models and making actual rules required to use FW. When I got my first FW stuff I simultaneously bought the Index. Because, well that makes sense.

Everyone should have actual rules to use any units. FW or not. Tournament or not.

How are you supposed to play the game with only one player's attempt at remembering the datasheets? (and battlescribe print outs can't be trusted to be correct)

From my experience, that is a primary issue with folks using FW. They don't have the actual rules and/or proxy FW models. It makes some folks a bit skeptical as to what they are facing when they don't have the opportunity to see the rules for their opponent's army or the proxy is really a poor attempt to avoid time-effort-money in order to build a harder list.

Man, if only there was a way to get the rules instantaneously for like $20.

EDIT: Man, and it would be even cooler if there were a way to read it on your phone without even having to have the physical book!

I'd definitely agree that "No rules, bad proxy, means no game" is a fine rule.

But I disagree that that should be limited to Forgeworld only. If their proxy sucks and they don't have the rules, don't play them at all.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd definitely agree that "No rules, bad proxy, means no game" is a fine rule.

But I disagree that that should be limited to Forgeworld only. If their proxy sucks and they don't have the rules, don't play them at all.

That seems fair.

It's certainly not limited to FW. At LVO last year, this was a Magnus (left) and a Lord of Change (rght)