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Any rumors when the next HH book will drop?

Screw more HH books, we need Fires!

We need an Angels of Death book

 griffen127 wrote:
Any rumors when the next HH book will drop?

It’s due by the end of the year but will almost certainly slip to next year. And it’s not ‘angels of death’ anymore - it’s Blood Angels and White Scars, with the Dark Angels in the following book.

 griffen127 wrote:
We need an Angels of Death book

You need. I'd quite fancy getting Fires of Cyraxus first since 2013 was the last time we got an actual IA book (not counting vol. 13 which was a compendium of units for Chaos rather than a campaign and narrative, even if we count that it was 2014!).

If we get another goddamn Space Marine book before Fires, you’ll probably be able to find me banging my head against a wall and screaming.

I hope Fires didn’t have Elysians in it, otherwise another rewrite might be on the cards...

 Jadenim wrote:
I hope Fires didn’t have Elysians in it, otherwise another rewrite might be on the cards...

Probably elysian winning battles against the tau all over, only for the Imperial Navy to leave open a blockade and the tau use a superweapon to destroy elysia.

 griffen127 wrote:
Any rumors when the next HH book will drop?

I wouldnt be surprised if they dropped the new book and first change HH to 8th edition. Or maybe even wait for like 1,5 or even 2 years untill people get bored with 8th 40k and release entirelly new HH edition combining best features of 7th and 8th (like advanced 8th).

Lets be clear - staying in 7th is death of the game (no offence to fans) in the long run.

Going 8th is safest bet.

Making entirely new edition like advanced 8th is risky but it might pay off if they find a good momentum for release.

If i was making this decision (being GW) i would first change the game to 8th (safest bet) and then continue with campaign books. Its the only way for the book to sell more copies.

 kronk wrote:
People buying recasts are going for big tanks, not Torsos.

I actually asked a pal of mine about this. You're wrong. Though heavy tanks are still big ticket items even from recasters, the thing that sells the most atm: DKoK Infantry. Oh, and Elysian stuff now.

Glumy wrote:

 griffen127 wrote:
Any rumors when the next HH book will drop?

I wouldnt be surprised if they dropped the new book and first change HH to 8th edition. Or maybe even wait for like 1,5 or even 2 years untill people get bored with 8th 40k and release entirelly new HH edition combining best features of 7th and 8th (like advanced 8th).

Lets be clear - staying in 7th is death of the game (no offence to fans) in the long run.

Going 8th is safest bet.

Making entirely new edition like advanced 8th is risky but it might pay off if they find a good momentum for release.

If i was making this decision (being GW) i would first change the game to 8th (safest bet) and then continue with campaign books. Its the only way for the book to sell more copies.

Thankfully, for now, FW disagree with you, hence why they're putting out their own 7-based rulebook.

I might, might have trusted Alan Bligh to salvage something viable from the utter mess of 8th, but with the state the team is in at the moment - depleted to handle Specialist Games, still dealing with the death of their friend and colleague, trying to bring new hires up to speed, trying to meet their existing commitments for book releases - I have zero confidence 8th HH would be even playable, let alone fun to play. More than that though, this is not like 6th to 7th, 8th is a paradigm shift and it's a really garbage move to make such a shift when a decent amount of stuff still doesn't have rules in the existing system yet. By all means, once the Heresy is finished, put out a "nuHeresy" edition using 8th as the basis for those people who don't really play Heresy and just want to use the armies against 40K armies, but until then they should focus on finishing the game they started and people have spent small fortunes on.

If the price of that is a few shoulderpads, well, that sucks, but it's well worth paying IMO.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Thankfully, for now, FW disagree with you, hence why they're putting out their own 7-based rulebook.

Everything i have written is completely unrelated with what i personally like or dislike. Business decisions must be based on hard data.

From what i understand and what we can see Horus Heresy is having a decline. Sticking with Horus Heresy 7th edition was partly because half of the community wanted a continuation and partly because to change all the rules would take time. They had to do something. They chose sticking with 7th for now which i can understand.

However as this might have been a safe decision not so long ago we can see that it is bad for the popularity of the game in the long run. I believe they dont have a choice and sometime soon (soon actually means - in a good time when people might be a little fed up with 40k and would like something new to shake things up) they will have to change the edition. Perhaps make a conversion to 8th or make entirely new "mature" ruleset.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I might, might have trusted Alan Bligh to salvage something viable from the utter mess of 8th, but with the state the team is in at the moment - depleted to handle Specialist Games, still dealing with the death of their friend and colleague, trying to bring new hires up to speed, trying to meet their existing commitments for book releases - I have zero confidence 8th HH would be even playable, let alone fun to play.

What we personally like or dislike doesnt matter as GW being a company have to make decisions based on hard data. If the team is depleted to work on other projects this might mean that Horus Heresy stopped being as profitable as it was during the 7th edition 40k. If they want Horus Heresy to be more profitable they have to release a newer ruleset. Otherwise the game will die... eventually.

 Yodhrin wrote:
More than that though, this is not like 6th to 7th, 8th is a paradigm shift and it's a really garbage move to make such a shift when a decent amount of stuff still doesn't have rules in the existing system yet.

That is why they chose 7th for now - safe move based on the outrage. However it wont work in the long run and in order to sell more copies of the next big book they should change the edition. I would be really surpised if the next book will sell in comparable amount and they have to see it too. If i was FW i would concentrate first on edition change and then release the next big book.

 Yodhrin wrote:
By all means, once the Heresy is finished, put out a "nuHeresy" edition using 8th as the basis for those people who don't really play Heresy and just want to use the armies against 40K armies, but until then they should focus on finishing the game they started and people have spent small fortunes on.

Minis have to sell. Heresy sold better because 7th 40k was a mess. Actually the approach youre talking about is better for every one of us Heresy fans. It means while these players collecting a Legion to play against his friends Orks it is still another player to play with.

 Yodhrin wrote:
If the price of that is a few shoulderpads, well, that sucks, but it's well worth paying IMO.

The price of staying in one place and not moving forward is death. It might be a slow death but is death nonetheless.

I also wonder how much of a factor are Primaris? Personally I’ll never buy another stumpy old marine again.

I'm just waiting for them to (maybe, hopefully... probably not...) release a campaign book with Minotaurs in it so I can get an official Chapter Tactic. Sure, being able to choose freely is great, but it feels a bit like cheating at the same time when Salamanders is so good.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I also wonder how much of a factor are Primaris? Personally I’ll never buy another stumpy old marine again.

Same here. I was starting a HH army towards the end of 7th. A combination of the decision to stay with the old rules and the release of Primaris made me completely shelve all my plans. It didn't help that everyone in my group who was starting to collect HH just stopped dead because of the rules decision. I've not even heard HH mentioned since...

At this point, with at least 2 more books to go to complete the HH legions and a much reduced release frequency, might they skip 8th edition altogether and just wait on 9th?

If FW rereleases all the HH things for 8th in 2 years, and then GW prime drops 9th within a year of that, they are right back to an out dated HH series.

Just a thought.

Glumy wrote:


From what i understand and what we can see Horus Heresy is having a decline.

we can see that it is bad for the popularity of the game in the long run.

If they want Horus Heresy to be more profitable they have to release a newer ruleset. Otherwise the game will die... eventually.

.

And your evidence for any of these assertions is...?

I'm not even a HH player, but I'm getting pretty sick of people declaring that 30k is dead or dying because their anecdotal experience is of more people playing 8th, yet all the while HH events spring up around the globe and are hugely popular.


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 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I also wonder how much of a factor are Primaris? Personally I’ll never buy another stumpy old marine again.

It will and won't be, for everyone with your attitude towards them, there seems to be someone like me who won't touch them with a bargepole, considering their fluff to be abominable and that regular marines still offer much more variety on the tabletop with wargear and unit types, not to mention modelling opportunities (despite GWs arbitrary wargear restrictions of late). Want an HQ with an axe and shield? Can't do that with Primaris.


Primaris and 8th are the new shiny and so currently draw a lot of attention, their gloss will diminish as time passes.

 sockwithaticket wrote:

It will and won't be, for everyone with your attitude, there's someone like me who won't touch them with a bargepole, considering their fluff to be abominable and regular marines still offering much more variety on the tabletop with wargear and unit types, not to mention modelling opportunitis (despite GWs arbitrary wargear restrictions of late). Want an HQ with an axe and shield? Can't do that with Primaris.

And primaris are even scaled wrong as a space marine so worthless for 30k which are space marines and not primaris. Unless GW retcons things and primaris marines were always the ones that fought in hh.

People are thinking conspiracy theories. People don't want to pay close to 100£ for 20 weaponless infantry models when for less money you can get 30 with weapons, 2 characters and dreadnought. Yes some likely buy but mostly I bet for basic infantry it's the plastic. When only part of infantry will be bought shoulder pads you can imagine how small amount sale potential for mk2 shoulder pads are.

If MKII plastics ever come up you there's chance that the shoulder pads come back as well.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
And your evidence for any of these assertions is...?

This is actually quite easy to assume. I dont have the hard data but it seems pretty obvious mostly because:

1) Horus Heresy design team got reduced
2) After release of 8th many people sold or stopped working on their HH armies after learning the game is sticking with 7th.

Those are not evidences of the system thriving but rather diminishing.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I'm not even a HH player, but I'm getting pretty sick of people declaring that 30k is dead or dying because their anecdotal experience is of more people playing 8th, yet all the while HH events spring up around the globe and are hugely popular.

Ofcourse there will be events sprouting. They might be even popular just like there are guys still playing 2nd edition or people coming to Amiga fandom weekends.

However the popularity of the Horus Heresy (in the long run) as a system is based sorely on the input of new players. Its a niche of a niche. Now i dont have hard data but i would assume in the long run something has to be done or the system will die. Now we have 2 options:
1) go 8th as a safer option
2) go completely new edition

If you want new books with good quality content (fluff, graphics, number of pages) the only possibility is to attract new players. HH in its current form will not do it as well as renewing the Horus Heresy. So in order for FW to sell more books they should go with new edition first.

Glumy wrote:
However the popularity of the Horus Heresy (in the long run) as a system is based sorely on the input of new players. Its a niche of a niche. Now i dont have hard data but i would assume in the long run something has to be done or the system will die. Now we have 2 options:
1) go 8th as a safer option
2) go completely new edition

If you want new books with good quality content (fluff, graphics, number of pages) the only possibility is to attract new players. HH in its current form will not do it as well as renewing the Horus Heresy. So in order for FW to sell more books they should go with new edition first.

You assume you can't get new players with HH rules as it is. 8th ed isn't some magic button that gets new customers.

You are making tons of assumptions but zero proof.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 kronk wrote:
People buying recasts are going for big tanks, not Torsos.

I actually asked a pal of mine about this. You're wrong. Though heavy tanks are still big ticket items even from recasters, the thing that sells the most atm: DKoK Infantry. Oh, and Elysian stuff now.

I certainly could be wrong, I am willing to admit. If your pal is not employed by one of the Russian or Chinese recasters, then how would he know what the big sellers are? Otherwise, it’s just his anecdotal evidence from his local group. MY anecdotal evidence is the people at AdeptiCon I have overheard bragging about their Titan, their super heavy tanks, and their greater daemons.

Just my 2 cents.

tneva82 wrote:
You assume you can't get new players with HH rules as it is. 8th ed isn't some magic button that gets new customers.

You can. Ofcourse you can. Just like you can introduce new players to 2nd edition or Amiga programming. It happens. Perhaps not enough to release a good quality 2nd edition with army books or a new Amiga computer but it certainly happens.

tneva82 wrote:
You are making tons of assumptions but zero proof.

I am basing on 2 observations:
1) Stagnation and even regression of the Horus Heresy system. Regression because people sell their armies.
2) Horus Heresy team got reduced.

I wouldnt be at all surprised if the new book got stalled for a new edition. We will see.

That stinks. My Death-Guard was all MK2 and Torso/Head/Shoulder upgrades :(

 kronk wrote:
At this point, with at least 2 more books to go to complete the HH legions and a much reduced release frequency, might they skip 8th edition altogether and just wait on 9th?

If FW rereleases all the HH things for 8th in 2 years, and then GW prime drops 9th within a year of that, they are right back to an out dated HH series.

Just a thought.

I don't see how they'll ever bring HH in line with 40K again. Look at what a challenge it is for them to get the black books out on time. Great googly-moogly, look at what a titanic struggle it is for them to release badly-needed FAQs and errata. And as you point out, even if they dropped everything they're working on to update everything in the game, that development time would probably bring us to the start of a new edition of 40K anyway.

If Alan Bligh was still with us and Specialist Games weren't driving the bus at FW, maybe the drive and manpower would be there to make an update happen. Or even make a new, more divergent version that borrows from 7th and 8th. But I think we're going to end up with 7th edition for eternity. Which makes me think of those grumpy old grognards at historicals conventions playing long-dead game systems. Fortunately, that's where the community has stepped in.

Regarding events, they're doing quite well and will probably continue to do so, since it's getting harder for some folks to find regular HH gaming locally.

 Jadenim wrote:
I hope Fires didn’t have Elysians in it, otherwise another rewrite might be on the cards...

Nope. Skitarii were to play the role of GEQ for the story from what was being mentioned.

 gorgon wrote:

I don't see how they'll ever bring HH in line with 40K again. Look at what a challenge it is for them to get the black books out on time. Great googly-moogly, look at what a titanic struggle it is for them to release badly-needed FAQs and errata. And as you point out, even if they dropped everything they're working on to update everything in the game, that development time would probably bring us to the start of a new edition of 40K anyway.

If Alan Bligh was still with us and Specialist Games weren't driving the bus at FW, maybe the drive and manpower would be there to make an update happen. Or even make a new, more divergent version that borrows from 7th and 8th. But I think we're going to end up with 7th edition for eternity. Which makes me think of those grumpy old grognards at historicals conventions playing long-dead game systems. Fortunately, that's where the community has stepped in.

Regarding events, they're doing quite well and will probably continue to do so, since it's getting harder for some folks to find regular HH gaming locally.

I agree with everything you wrote. I also dont think update will be easy. But if they want Horus Heresy to sell (dont they? I do) they have to update the rules eventually. Since they just released a Age of Darkness Rulebook for 7th they can wait for like 1,5+ years untill they can think and start to update the rules to something new. Just enough time for people to slowly lose interest in 8th and wanting something more to shake things up.

Also people shouldnt look at those playing Legions against 40k races with disdain. It can only bolster the community with new people you can play with. With this a nich in a niche suddenly becomes a little more open.

tneva82 wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Indeed. One if the joys of HH was being able to model your marines to look distinctly different from other legions, not just painting them a different colour and slapping a transfer on them. Although if you were planning on collecting Blackshields, you can’t even slap a transfer on them now.

Soooooo...How many MKII armours your army contains? Hopefully more than 0 since you seems to disagree with their decision.

It's not just Mark 2 though is it. All the Mark 4 bodies are going away too, which I would argue make up the majority of people's armies.

Glumy wrote:

 sockwithaticket wrote:
And your evidence for any of these assertions is...?

This is actually quite easy to assume. I dont have the hard data but it seems pretty obvious mostly because:

1) Horus Heresy design team got reduced
2) After release of 8th many people sold or stopped working on their HH armies after learning the game is sticking with 7th.

Those are not evidences of the system thriving but rather diminishing.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I'm not even a HH player, but I'm getting pretty sick of people declaring that 30k is dead or dying because their anecdotal experience is of more people playing 8th, yet all the while HH events spring up around the globe and are hugely popular.

Ofcourse there will be events sprouting. They might be even popular just like there are guys still playing 2nd edition or people coming to Amiga fandom weekends.

However the popularity of the Horus Heresy (in the long run) as a system is based sorely on the input of new players. Its a niche of a niche. Now i dont have hard data but i would assume in the long run something has to be done or the system will die. Now we have 2 options:
1) go 8th as a safer option
2) go completely new edition

If you want new books with good quality content (fluff, graphics, number of pages) the only possibility is to attract new players. HH in its current form will not do it as well as renewing the Horus Heresy. So in order for FW to sell more books they should go with new edition first.

The team hasn't been reduced. The man driving the creative direction of the Heresy sadly died and so, as Forgeworld have explicitly stated at events, they pressed pause on the Heresy while someone else got ready to take on that role. Games Workshop, rather than having staff sit around doing nothing, re-tasked Forgeworld teamsters who had been doing HH work with Specialist Games stuff.

Again, you're making baseless assertions. I've seen peope here and elsewhere online say that 8th killed their interest in 40k and pushed them to HH exclusively as well as people saying the exact opposite. All that is just random anecdotes that doesnt mean much.

Comparing HH to 2nd ed is disingenuous, one of those is an actual current ruleset you can purchase direct from the company while the other was superceded 20 years ago.

As much as I hate close combat and the way armor worked in 7th, I don't think 8th is a good fit for Horus Heresy right now. Some of the 8th Ed rules outright suck, and Forgeworld would have to completely overhaul the Legions to account for the differences and rebalance them. They'd be better off making their own set of rules that streamline things a bit.

 zend wrote:
As much as I hate close combat and the way armor worked in 7th, I don't think 8th is a good fit for Horus Heresy right now. Some of the 8th Ed rules outright suck, and Forgeworld would have to completely overhaul the Legions to account for the differences and rebalance them. They'd be better off making their own set of rules that streamline things a bit.

As a Drop Pod oriented Terror Assault player - AGREED.