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 Grey Templar wrote:


They are useful in the interest of saving space on a unit profile. It takes less space to print Veteran Lvl2 than to print V: No Wound Incapacitation and Sixth Sense lvl2. Plus it has the effects of Veteran Lvl1 so it does have something beyond just giving two other special rules.

But why is saving space more important than clarity? I don’t care how tidy the profile layout is, I just want a reminder that my trooper also has Courage.

Seriously, the consensus seems to be this game is all-or-nothing: you either commit rules from multiple books to memory, or GTFO. Which is a horrible way to get new blood into the game, which means the existing player base must continually buy new armies if CB is going to stay afloat...

...but at least the profiles are tidy.

 Mastiff wrote:


Seriously, the consensus seems to be this game is all-or-nothing: you either commit rules from multiple books to memory, or GTFO. Which is a horrible way to get new blood into the game, which means the existing player base must continually buy new armies if CB is going to stay afloat...

Except the game isn't all or nothing. You're not required to commit anything to memory at all (although as you play you will of course start to remember). The very easy to use and free army app is linked to the very easy to use and free wiki and allows evey rules to be referenced very quickly. As long as you know and understand the basic structure of the game you don;t have to memorize anything else. This idea that you have to memorize tons and tons for rules is ridiculous, and only true if you refuse to use the tools that have been provided with the game. Similarly, the idea that the game has too many rules is only a problem if you're trying to remember them all. You don't have to. It doesn't matter of there are hundreds of unique weapon profiles. You'll never be required to remember any of them, and you'll almost never you more than a dozen at a time anyway.

Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.

I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.

I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".

Has yet to be a problem. Always had wifi or data. Dont usually need to look up many rules tbh. Army builder will concisely give you all the profiles, weapons range bands, & hacking programs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 5deadly wrote:
This Episode of Maya cast covers alot of overhaul ideas... I agree with most of it as well
Over a 160 different individual weapon profile entries I do think it is time for a little bit of Cleanup in this game as much as I enjoy it and I'm not complaining...
The game does need a basic overhaul
https://mayacast.com/2018/08/17/mayacast-episode-194-reduce-reuse-recycle/

Ok this podcast is largely a fun exercise in slogging through the rules, but most of these gripes they're bringing up are clearly people who have misconstrued their poor understanding of the rules as bad writing.
There is also this unrealistic expectation here that the rules should be written such that someone playing for the FIRST time won't make ANY mistakes. I have not played any complex game where we didn't later pick up a mistake we made in the vey first session. That's just the nature of games.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.

I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".

Well, you could always buy the books if you want an internet free way to look up the rules.

Flipping through books to find the (potentially outdated) rules is a bit of a hassle. This is coming from someone that actually owns all the books.

I'd rather have TCG-like cards with all the uncommon rules spelled out. It keeps even some of the most rules-bloated games like Malifaux manageable.

I do use the books - and assuming all the information is accurate, they're often quicker to flick through than waiting for wiki pages to load.

Our club venue theoretically has free Wi-Fi, but it's an awful connection and keeps dropping. And I need to reference the rulebook because I haven't memorised the rules.

I don't think anyone is sensibly claiming that the rules should be perfectly understood on a first pass; people are just saying that there are areas for improvement. The phraseology has improved massively since 1st edition, but there's still lots of places where a sentence reads like it's got English words using Spanish grammar, for example.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Flipping through books to find the (potentially outdated) rules is a bit of a hassle. This is coming from someone that actually owns all the books.

I'd rather have TCG-like cards with all the uncommon rules spelled out. It keeps even some of the most rules-bloated games like Malifaux manageable.

Cards would in theory also be subject to updates. Now you need to reissue note cards and we need to keep track of them to make sure we’re using the most recent set.
We already have sets of objective decks, and a zillion tokens. We don’t need more parts to this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I do use the books - and assuming all the information is accurate, they're often quicker to flick through than waiting for wiki pages to load.

Our club venue theoretically has free Wi-Fi, but it's an awful connection and keeps dropping. And I need to reference the rulebook because I haven't memorised the rules.

I don't think anyone is sensibly claiming that the rules should be perfectly understood on a first pass; people are just saying that there are areas for improvement. The phraseology has improved massively since 1st edition, but there's still lots of places where a sentence reads like it's got English words using Spanish grammar, for example.

It really is so much better. 1sr/2nd edition were an utter train wreck.
We’re just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking here.

For crying out loud, the app is directly linked to the wiki. You click the rule, it loads the page.
Yah I guess no WiFi/data would be rough, it hasn’t happened to me. Maybe ask your club to fix their WiFi issues & see if there’s anything the infinity players can do to help diagnose the issue?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I do use the books - and assuming all the information is accurate, they're often quicker to flick through than waiting for wiki pages to load.

Our club venue theoretically has free Wi-Fi, but it's an awful connection and keeps dropping. And I need to reference the rulebook because I haven't memorised the rules.

I don't think anyone is sensibly claiming that the rules should be perfectly understood on a first pass; people are just saying that there are areas for improvement. The phraseology has improved massively since 1st edition, but there's still lots of places where a sentence reads like it's got English words using Spanish grammar, for example.

You shouldn't need WiFi. Apps work offline and get updates when they have a connection.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Well, you could always buy the books if you want an internet free way to look up the rules.

...which is the reason why we’re saying the rules could use rewriting or better indexing that are occasionally hidden in obscure places.

There is also this unrealistic expectation here that the rules should be written such that someone playing for the FIRST time won't make ANY mistakes

No, no one is saying that other than you.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Maybe ask your club to fix their WiFi issues & see if there’s anything the infinity players can do to help diagnose the issue?

It's not worth the effort, frankly. I've got better things to do than convince the council to install another access point just so I can get to a website quicker. It's not a problem - I don't mind consulting the rulebook (except when I forget and bring the wrong book, like I did last week; luckily I could get a good enough connection to download the PDF of the rules); it's just that I think the layout and presentation of the rulebook isn't as good as it could be, that's all.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Maybe ask your club to fix their WiFi issues & see if there’s anything the infinity players can do to help diagnose the issue?

It's not worth the effort, frankly. I've got better things to do than convince the council to install another access point just so I can get to a website quicker. It's not a problem - I don't mind consulting the rulebook (except when I forget and bring the wrong book, like I did last week; luckily I could get a good enough connection to download the PDF of the rules); it's just that I think the layout and presentation of the rulebook isn't as good as it could be, that's all.

After you download the PDF you should save it locally. That way you can bring it up wherever you want regardless of connection quality.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I've been really happy with N3. It's a solid system that's fairly streamlined (it could do without nested special rules). It's not a very good system for physical media though. The rules are very reference table driven, which means they're a nightmare to lookup manually, but pretty easily compile down into a pretty digestible size on a per model basis.

I don't think cards really work for it, simply because there are so many options when you get down to the different equipment sets. I think it would just feel like an overwhelming number of cards, not to mention layout issues with stuff like hackers and the like.

I disagree. Look at the stuff GW's done for "warscroll cards" or "datacards".

If they can manage to fit the rules for an entire unit and its weapons on bit that's a bit larger than an index card(the most recent Nighthaunt/Stormcast iteration of the warscroll cards)? Infinity can do it easily as well.

They'd just have to be faction specific.

Thing is, once you make those cards there is a good chance they will become obsolete via errata. So then you either need to re-release the cards with the errata or sell replacement cards. Either way, you have a major hassle. This is why Privateer Press is moving so quickly over to a fully digital rules format.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.

I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".

Has yet to be a problem. Always had wifi or data.

Survivor bias is a thing.

I've played games in places with no data access. It slows things down considerably, and we both had played for years.

I can understand wifi and having a device being a barrier, and that without them the game is slowed down... but I consider them to be essential parts of the game. or at least of playing the game to its full potential.

If using the app and wiki isn't a possibility I can understand the desire for cards or a better indexed book, but honestly i see cards as a much bigger barrier than the app/wiki. And while the book can always be improved (and probably will be one day) it will also always be more difficult to use and less complete than the app and wiki.

Maybe its just a matter of preferences. I think cards are a poor idea, but maybe thats what some people need, even if its expensive and impractical. Maybe other players need a constantly updated rule book, with new editions every year? Even though thats not unpractical either. Maybe CB needs to market a custom digital device that easily displays the app, wiki and rulebook and doesn't rely on an internet connection? Thats not practical either, but different people may need different solutions.

I don't think simplifying or streamlining the game, or cutting out "bloat" is a good solution. The problem isn't having expansive rule
s with a huge amount of options. if anything, thats one of Infinity's great strengths. the problem is finding a way to easily access all of that. For some of us thats the app and wiki, and its working as intended. But I guess other people need a different solution.

I don’t have an Android so I’ve never used it but several people I know use the app version of army. Is that online or local?

 LunarSol wrote:
I don’t have an Android so I’ve never used it but several people I know use the app version of army. Is that online or local?

It's not on the apple app store IIRC, but there are other army builder apps like mayanet out there that are kept up to date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at the IA AVA charts, why on earth is Sun Tze not in IA?

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I don’t have an Android so I’ve never used it but several people I know use the app version of army. Is that online or local?

It's not on the apple app store IIRC, but there are other army builder apps like mayanet out there that are kept up to date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at the IA AVA charts, why on earth is Sun Tze not in IA?

Yeah, the Army app is Android only I believe. I just wasn't sure if it was offline enabled or not.

MayaNet is terrific. Vast improvement on the playability of the game all around. It appears to be tablet only though, so it doesn't really help if you're phone only. A cheap tablet is a great tool to have for wargaming these days all around though. I've got mine loaded with the app, rulebooks, tournament packs, etc for each game I play. Probably my most essential tool these days after the tape measure and dice (which, come to think of it, I've gotten away with forgetting easier than my tablet...)

 Mastiff wrote:


But why is saving space more important than clarity? I don’t care how tidy the profile layout is, I just want a reminder that my trooper also has Courage.

Seriously, the consensus seems to be this game is all-or-nothing: you either commit rules from multiple books to memory, or GTFO. Which is a horrible way to get new blood into the game, which means the existing player base must continually buy new armies if CB is going to stay afloat...

...but at least the profiles are tidy.

In my experience with the infinity Community it's not GTFO and you don't have to memorize the entire game to go start playing.
This isn't simplified units this is a game that was an RPG turned into a skirmish game.











-edited by insaniak-

Well that escalated quickly...

While I don't disagree and there is WAY too much crying here on Dakka, calling them names or making it into an intelligence issue with run-on sentances and poor grammar maybe isn't the best way to solve it. You honestly don't need to be particularly smart to play this game as it's not nearly so complicated as many of the pen & paper RPGs out there. D&D/Pathfinder is decidedly more complicated than Infinity, and that's not even an especially in-depth RPG system compared to some.

There's a bias out there (especially recently) that skirmish games are meant to be fast games or simple games where you can play a bunch in a short amount of time. One of the things I've always loved about Infinity is that you get the same level of tactical depth that you would from an army-scale game. The dozen figures you put out on the table will give you a full wargame experience just as a game of Warmachine or 40K or WHFB/KoW. You have less figures so the complexity level NEEDS to be ramped up to give you the same overall feel as playing with a company or a platoon in other games. Each model in Infinity is a full unit in and of itself. Infinity ISN'T a fast game, it ISN'T a simple game, and while 5deadly's post is far too antagonistic, some of the points are valid. Namely that people that DO want fast and simple will be better served by other skirmish games on the market.

That said, maybe take it down a notch. It's frustrating dealing with the constant negativity towards the game here on Dakka, but that's a bit too far and does nobody any good.

It's not the complexity that's the problem for me - the interaction of active and reactive orders, hacking, freedom of movement, non-combat objectives, etc is all fine. It's the complication that I have trouble with, because I don't concentrate my free time on Infinity; dozens of different hacking programs, a huge list of skills, lots of weapons with nearly-identical profiles, that sort of thing. My opinion is that that information could be presented in a different fashion that would be an improvement.

I don't want a game of Infinity that lasts half an hour. I want one that lasts three hours or so, as that's the length of time I have for a game. I'll need to see if I can convince people to play games lasting for more than three turns.

@AndrewGPaul a good game can last about 2 hours around depends on how fast you're playing and how large your forces there are nights when we can get two games in within 3 to 4 hours... the idea is you don't have to learn every single Army.. Just learn yours...
If you have a local gaming group and there's already people that are playing.. there's almost always someone inside that group that's going to really want to teach you how to play so that you can join them... I'm starting to wonder how many people who complain on these forums have actually played yet..

@Kalamadea
You're right that talks to text run-on sentences rant on my way out of work this morning probably isn't helping the case it's so frustrating man I'm dealing with this personally...
You see my friend is a Warhammer 40K player. His inability to change from that system to Infinity and the idea that he thinks that throwing $500 at Infinity is the way to win is very frustrating.
It is kind of selfishly satisfying to know I put $60 worth of models on the table and I win vs. his $300 worth of models while giving him a fair game, while he tries to play beardie on the borderline of cheating. at the same time it's frustrating to see him lose it because thinking that once again this is a some kind of 40K Forge World tanks spam thing. where buying the most expensive things and having the most toys is actually going to win you the game and it doesn't...
I think the frustration stems from the idea that you've got to be tactical than this game you've got to discuss things with your opponent you've got to be willing to learn new things and if you can't do that you're not going to have fun and neither is your opponent and I probably shouldn't get so upset that there's so many people just whining what's new right...
Sorry for the run on sentences but talk to text while I walk

People seem to be talking past each other.

One side is asking for a trim and the other is arguing that a major simplification is a bad idea. Both are right.

Infinity is enjoyed by those of us who enjoy it because it is complex. There is an abundance of weapons and skills, many are practically a signature of their faction and rare outside it. There are so many that each trooper can be a unique combination, rather than an idea expressed in terms of a stat + special rule framework like KoW does. Most (if not all) of us agree on that.

On the other hand, the rules can be written better. There are rules with such small differences that they don't actually make the game any better, just more unweildly. The game can definitly be more elegant, while delivering the same experience. Words like "streamline" and "simplify" scare people because those people assume them to be meant at a different scale than they are. The idea is not to dumb it down.

The suggestion is more like an edit and polish than a overhaul.

Personally I think hacking needs some actual streamlining. The programs right now, particularly claw, are a mess. Yes they’re all different in subtle ways but is that really adding anything to the game? Also the fact that redrum is the mathematically correct program for every situation for a killer hacker shows that the sword 2 programs also have some bloat that is just confusing for even experienced players.

Just to clarify, 5deadly, I’ve been playing this game since before the rulebook was released, and miniature games in general for thirty years. I’m not too stupid to understand the game. It’s generally the presentation that’s the problem, not the content.

 DarkBlack wrote:
People seem to be talking past each other.

One side is asking for a trim and the other is arguing that a major simplification is a bad idea. Both are right.

Infinity is enjoyed by those of us who enjoy it because it is complex. There is an abundance of weapons and skills, many are practically a signature of their faction and rare outside it. There are so many that each trooper can be a unique combination, rather than an idea expressed in terms of a stat + special rule framework like KoW does. Most (if not all) of us agree on that.

On the other hand, the rules can be written better. There are rules with such small differences that they don't actually make the game any better, just more unweildly. The game can definitly be more elegant, while delivering the same experience. Words like "streamline" and "simplify" scare people because those people assume them to be meant at a different scale than they are. The idea is not to dumb it down.

The suggestion is more like an edit and polish than a overhaul.

Nobody will deny the game could be simplified and streamlined without losing any depth or detail.
However, there just aren’t enough problems to justify the need for an overhaul.
There are certain technicalities and eccentricities in the wording and structure that are necessary. These often cause people with poor understanding/familiarity with the rules to throw up their hands in frustration. When you mull them over, the wording & structure if often necessary and has a purpose.
Considering how the universe and release schedule came to a GRINDING halt to put out N3, Things are not bad enough right now to justify a 3.5 or 4th edition ruleset. Keep in mind that all existing profiles would have to be reviewed, sectorial balance addressed, & probably many models rendered obsolete.
It just isn’t worth the pain and suffering yet to redo the core rules again.

I am also getting the impression that people are frustrated facing opponents purposely misinterpreting the rules to cheese out wins. That’s people being jerks, not the fault of the rules.

Amusingly enough, someone started a thread on the Official forums on this very topic. A link, you say? Well, okay. But no cross forum drama. Promise?
https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/is-the-game-getting-too-complex.25677/page-3#post-172174 It sort of is news.

We are unlikely to get any previews of minis for another 2 weeks. We have already seen some of the November releases.

Do we know all of the November releases? The Beyond Coldfront Box, the Varuna Starter, the Line Kazaks box are all at the pre-order stage. And the 3rd Offensive book. Anything more?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Just to clarify, 5deadly, I’ve been playing this game since before the rulebook was released, and miniature games in general for thirty years. I’m not too stupid to understand the game. It’s generally the presentation that’s the problem, not the content.

I was just suggesting the App prior to my Rant
... it really wasn't about you tbh sorry man

No worries.

As it happens, I'm in the mood to play some infinity again for the first time since the first Beasts of War campaign; don't know why. I've already dragged out my minis (and dropped them all on the floor :( ), dumped all the outdated sculpts into the "to be sold" pile and sorted the JSA models into separate foam trays. Now it all looks much more manageable; I don't have dozens of different troop types to worry about when building a list. I just need the 3rd Offensive book and the Invincible Army list and I can stop even considering anything that's not HI.

Do we have more on upcoming releases?

Tunguska still needs a bunch of stuff and we're already onto Varuna & IA.
Where is the feuerbach securitate? That's the one was all want to use. Are we still going to get a Grenzer box?

Personal wish list also includes a new senior massacre & non-exclusive sculpt for the wardriver