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 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe i'm just wrong, but i can't envision a competitive game against nids with my ba. I'm outclassed in every phase of the game.

You are not outclassed in shooting. And if they're running 9 Carnifex you're not outclassed in assault either.

You play an elite list. Elite lists simply don't fare well in 8th edition for the obvious reasons.

Can't he just run Baal flamer predators to clear out the chaff and then send in his elite units to mess up the Carnies in CC?

Baal flamer preds? They don't make the cut in any list. Ever. Maybe dakka Baals if they faq them to officially use killshot.

Martel732 wrote:
Baal flamer preds? They don't make the cut in any list. Ever. Maybe dakka Baals if they faq them to officially use killshot.

I have no idea what Baal preds are like, I assumed there were same as Hellforged predators.

Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find the HVC much more effective than a lascannon in practice.

It's way better than a las cannon. 9 potential damage to 6. Same str only 1 less AP (which often doesn't matter because you are just cutting them to an invo save with ap-2 anyways) Vs some things it matters but the flat damage makes up for that alone - it's twice as effective against heavy infantry. Plus it's assault so can move and shoot no problem...even advance if you must and still shoot. Putting it on a -1 to hit platform that hits on 3's rerolling 1's...It's a real nice weapon.

Not like Lascannons often come in pairs or anything, or shoot at vehicles (or Tyranid Monsters like Carnifexes) that don't have invuln saves. The described Carnifex is still more points than a Lazorback.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

What list do you run? Chaos and craftworld performs better than nids in tournaments...

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe i'm just wrong, but i can't envision a competitive game against nids with my ba. I'm outclassed in every phase of the game.

You are not outclassed in shooting. And if they're running 9 Carnifex you're not outclassed in assault either.

You play an elite list. Elite lists simply don't fare well in 8th edition for the obvious reasons.

Can't he just run Baal flamer predators to clear out the chaff and then send in his elite units to mess up the Carnies in CC?

Well even assuming those were good they still wouldn't be tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer!

Or maybe just drop a lot of Death Company with Lemartes, wipe the screen easily with 3D6 charge range and 40+ attacks that hit on 3+ rerollable and wound on 2+, then charge Captain Smashypants, Mephiston and the rest of the army into the fexes.

Maybe just become a better player too. You very much remind me of the guy we had in our club who always conceded turn 1 or 2 because you killed his one model he hinged his entire gameplan on, and then whined about everything else was OP instead of realizing it was his own fault.

So this thread is basically just Martel whining about nids? It should probably just be locked at this point..

I'm really trying to understand the disparity in experiences. I haven't even observed a close game against these guys yet except from ig. These things have massacred chaos in each match i've watched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

What list do you run? Chaos and craftworld performs better than nids in tournaments...

Haven't settled on one yet.

Haven't lost yet

Martel732 wrote:
I'm really trying to understand the disparity in experiences. I haven't even observed a close game against these guys yet except from ig. These things have massacred chaos in each match i've watched.

Perhaps you should start a thread to find out how well people are doing against Nids. I've only played against them once but I won via tabling, though the battle was an extremely hard fight.

I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm really trying to understand the disparity in experiences. I haven't even observed a close game against these guys yet except from ig. These things have massacred chaos in each match i've watched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. They suck. I guess the answer is elite armies suck. But I don't have this level of despair or failure vs Eldar or Chaos.

What list do you run? Chaos and craftworld performs better than nids in tournaments...

Haven't settled on one yet.

Out of curiosity, is it the same guy running the nid army each time? He/she could just be really good?

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

What? going first doesn't help you when your opponent has castled a billion dark reapers. Dark Reapers are so good people are literally bringing bastions.

My 2c is that dark reapers are ridiculous OP though, a 3 damage missile and a 2d6 tempest launcher are obscenely good. They deal damage marines can only dream about, with very high mobility and amazing psychic synergy.

And in every practical example, they'll have a 2+ save.

I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to have a tough time with Carnifexes but not get absolutely floored in seconds against a meta dark reapers list.

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do. Like, a unit you can build a list around. They don't fare well in the meta, because Eldar and AM have brutal artillery that will eliminate any chaff with ease, and they have the firepower to drop big things easily too. Berzerkers offset genestealers but get the protection of transports. So yeah.

Demerean wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

And if they have a -1 to hit then they don't get the +1 when shooting. I think in the 8th increasing your output is almost always better than trying to get a bit more survivable. With all the rerolls out there, a -1 to hit isn't that bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Haven't lost yet

Play more games. If you are batting a 1.000 in either directions you can't have played that many games. Not with how fast the meta is changes with new codexes being pumped out every other week.

mattblowers wrote:

Demerean wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The other issue is the crazy mortal wounds they generate. I don't understand how any elite army has a chance against them.

Carnifex has 2 sources of mortal wounds. They do a mortal on a 4+ anytime they charge and if they take a 5 point upgrade they do a mortal to each unit withing 1" on a 6 in the fight phase. Nids are pretty good vs all kinds of armies. Just aren't good against IG. IG can just load the table with infantry and my hive tyrants can't get to their tanks. IG are basically auto win.

And if they take that upgrade, they cannot have the -1 to hit. So they never have that upgrade.

And if they have a -1 to hit then they don't get the +1 when shooting. I think in the 8th increasing your output is almost always better than trying to get a bit more survivable. With all the rerolls out there, a -1 to hit isn't that bad.

They can have both the -1 to be hit and the +1 to hit when shooting.
The -1 to be hit goes in their carapace slot, and is only competing with spine banks, which is just a mediocre short ranged shooting attack which can be fired into or out of combat.
The +1 to hit goes in their head slot, and is competing with several upgrades. But primarily with Acid Maw (a melee weapon which is handy for when all their arm slots are taken up by guns).

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

What? going first doesn't help you when your opponent has castled a billion dark reapers. Dark Reapers are so good people are literally bringing bastions.

My 2c is that dark reapers are ridiculous OP though, a 3 damage missile and a 2d6 tempest launcher are obscenely good. They deal damage marines can only dream about, with very high mobility and amazing psychic synergy.

And in every practical example, they'll have a 2+ save.

I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to have a tough time with Carnifexes but not get absolutely floored in seconds against a meta dark reapers list.

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do. Like, a unit you can build a list around. They don't fare well in the meta, because Eldar and AM have brutal artillery that will eliminate any chaff with ease, and they have the firepower to drop big things easily too. Berzerkers offset genestealers but get the protection of transports. So yeah.

I have the most issue with the intercept stratagem. If they go first I lose to SS that get buffed and I have to spend 100% of my ground army to bring them down or they will destroy my whole army. If my deep strike hives and trygon forces could counter properly I could probably come back but they can easily drop a big unit of warriors or even a hive tyrant if they are lucky with OP stratagem.
If I go first it's not so bad normally I can kill enough of the reapers to make a game of it.

I've had an incredible run with my nids since the codex dropped. I've been running a kronos gunline with a wall of warriors to great success. I've played a game with them as jormungandr and while I appreciate the cover bonus and the added mobility, I can't tear myself away from rerolling 1's and the amazing combo of soul hunger/deepest shadow.


Every game has been nearly the same outcome, to varying degrees of success from my opponents. I've lost everything but a my warriors, to only losing 4 warriors in a game and most things in between.


While I don't think nids are as powerful as a Guilliman blob or a good Alaitoc death reaper eldar list, I think nids right now are in one of the best places they've been at for nearly a decade.

This is what I've been running recently, and I haven't yet come close to losing a game:

2k Kronos Tyranids
2 Battalion detachments

2x flying hive tyrants, TS, HVC, MRC (warlord has miasma cannon and soul hunger)
2x Tyranid Primes, boneswords, AG, deathspitters
2x3 Ripper swarms
4x3 Warrior broods, boneswords, 2 deathspitters, VC
2x2 Carnifex, enhanced senses, spore cysts, HVC, deathspitters
2x Exocrines

If I had them, I would put in hive guard for sure, but I enjoy the symmetry of this list.


Every game I deepstrike my tyrants into the opponent's field, and the rippers onto objectives. Every game my tyrants die first, then the exocrines, then the warriors get picked off. Everyone ignores the Carnifex because of the -1 to hit.

It really makes things easy.

I've considered using the monstrous acid maw on my carnifex instead of the 3+ to hit, but combining the 3+ with rerolls is awesome. Especially since the are my main source of damage. I've just consigned away the fact that if my carnifex is actually charged by something that WANTS to fight it, its going to die anyways.

But don't you get bored playing this list? The entire premise of the army is to just stand there and shoot. If you move you lose the rerolls.

The fun of Nids is that they are solid in all phases. Mobility, Shooting, Psychers and Combat. The all Kronos list excludes the mobility and the combat. Tyrants do not kill much in combat with only 4 attacks.... Units of 3 warriors are slow and will not kill much in combat either.

Masutaman wrote:
But don't you get bored playing this list? The entire premise of the army is to just stand there and shoot. If you move you lose the rerolls.

The fun of Nids is that they are solid in all phases. Mobility, Shooting, Psychers and Combat. The all Kronos list excludes the mobility and the combat. Tyrants do not kill much in combat with only 4 attacks.... Units of 3 warriors are slow and will not kill much in combat either.

To each his own. I run a different list themed around different things in every game. You don't ask guard or tau players if they get sick of standing and shooting all them time.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I have yet to lose to nids this edition with elder but as mrhappyface said they are all well fought.

Nids vs eldar is all about who goes first. The armies are very equal IMO. The only edge eldar has on nids is their bloody OP forewarned stratagem. Though SS and Reapers are very problematic - they will probably both see points adjustments soon.

What? going first doesn't help you when your opponent has castled a billion dark reapers. Dark Reapers are so good people are literally bringing bastions.

My 2c is that dark reapers are ridiculous OP though, a 3 damage missile and a 2d6 tempest launcher are obscenely good. They deal damage marines can only dream about, with very high mobility and amazing psychic synergy.

And in every practical example, they'll have a 2+ save.

I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to have a tough time with Carnifexes but not get absolutely floored in seconds against a meta dark reapers list.

Tyranids are tough, but they don't have any all-star units like Eldar, Chaos, and Astra Militarum do. Like, a unit you can build a list around. They don't fare well in the meta, because Eldar and AM have brutal artillery that will eliminate any chaff with ease, and they have the firepower to drop big things easily too. Berzerkers offset genestealers but get the protection of transports. So yeah.

Never faced dark reapers in fortifications. That sounds insane.

It's Martel that has trouble with Carnifex - I use Carnifex. Was just agreeing with him that it's a strong unit. Not as good as dark reapers though.

Probably not, but I think the players in my area just don't have those models. Most of them were 6th ed bandwagon jumpers.

I faced off against [and beat] Tyranids twice on tuesday.

One player ran a CQC heavy list with Trygons, Genestealer, Carnifexes, Warriors, and Hormagaunts. I faced him with my Imperial Guard. His assault broke up when some Genestealers failed their T1 charge, even with re-rolls, and he struck my line piecemeal and my Punisher tank took him apart. It did take then entire antitank shooting of my list to down 2 Carnifexes, though, with the Cadian strategem, and he kept me penned into my deployment, so at the final scoring it was 7-6 in my favor.

The second game, the player ran a shooting list with 4 Gunfexes, a monster that gave -1 to hit all the guys around him, some Warriors, and a lot of Termigaunts, Hormagaunts, and Gargoyles. I faced him with my Sisters of Battle. He didn't try charging me, T1, but he brought on a gunflyrant and gargoyles from deep strike on one side of me and a sporocyst on the other, and at the end of his turn 1 I looked pretty surrounded by a sea of bugs. I had used my scout moves to pull back my meltagun units and leave my flamethrower units on the front line, and he was short on AT power and my entire army was mechanized, so I weathered his shooting pretty well. I counterattacked into the Gargoyles with St.C and my Seraphim [and support from my anti-infantry troops], and destroyed them, breaking through onto his flank. His huge swarm of 'gaunts was protecting his gunfex firebase, and I slowly picked them apart with my tanks and my Seraphim. His infantry eventually thinned out around turn 3, and when his gunfexes came close enough my melta troops came out of hiding to wreck them. It was a very fun game, and it was kind of weird to be charging the Tyranids. In the end, he had nothing left of his army.


Anyway here's my 2c on the Tyranids:
I think that going full melee, while it looks attractive, is a trap. In all the games I've played, the 'stealers and other troops his hard and fast, but then they sort of peter out and lose momentum. Hormagaunts are good at exploiting a breakthrough, but they're not killy enough to make their own. Genestealers can make the breach but they're not good at exploiting it. However, Genestealers and Hormagaunts and Trygons to deliver them aren't cheap, and you really have to be Behemoth to make it work at all, and you're still at 50/50 probability for each unit making it.

Tyranid shooting power is rather impressive, though I'd still be careful. The anti-infantry gunfexes were scary. The Warriors with their heavy-bolter equivalent weapons were pretty good too.



What both the lists I faced had in common was a lack of means to confront vehicles and entrenched infantry, which kind of carried the day in my game as the Sisters of Battle. My anti-infantry units dismounted and hid in cover, shooting at his swarms with their Storm Bolters, and it took a concerted effort from all his Gunfexes to destroy single 5-girl units, which really slowed him down. He was wounding me on 2's, so I can see it being nigh on impossible to break Space Marines and Primaris out of cover. To this end his Warriors picked up some slack. He was almost entirely unable to damage vehicles, even in melee, only tarpit them, and I used my vehicles to effectively screen for my other units.

Perhaps there's a good ranged Tyranid antitank gun, I'm not familiar with the Tyranid codex, but it's something to keep in mind. They're very good at just erasing light and medium infantry, but know how you're going to deal with vehicles when you see them.

Guard have been dominating everyone since 8th dropped, that isn't going to change because Tyranids got chapter tactics.

That said, there is a big reason to run Devgants + Trygon. Being able to dump 87 shots at str4 ap0 is great for clearing chaff, and for 2cp you can shoot twice. That's an example of shooting.

Another is the devourers on Hive Tyrants. dakka flyrants are solid models and should absolutely be kept away from meltaguns.

Hive guard are also a critical component in my opinion, but they're not essential according to tournament placing lists.

How i would have played would have been to drop in my devgants and annihilate as many of your screens as possible with 174 shots. Additionally, I would have my blobs of hormagants get in there as deep as they could and lock things up.

The way to make tyranids work is to give your opponent *required* targets for their shooting. You have to dictate what they shoot and why. If your opponent can pick, they will always target the portion of your army that will do the most damage to them, and you will lose, because tyranids have basically 0 defense.

My guess is that the players you faced probably didn't have that many hormagants. if you're going to run hormagants you need around 60 at minimum in my opinion. Because they die. En masse.

All this complaining about how OP Carnifexes baffles me. You can have Carnifexes. I'm all about Hive Guard, Biovores, Devilgaunts and Genestealers.
Carnifexes OP,,, HA!

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard have been dominating everyone since 8th dropped, that isn't going to change because Tyranids got chapter tactics.

That said, there is a big reason to run Devgants + Trygon. Being able to dump 87 shots at str4 ap0 is great for clearing chaff, and for 2cp you can shoot twice. That's an example of shooting.

Another is the devourers on Hive Tyrants. dakka flyrants are solid models and should absolutely be kept away from meltaguns.

Hive guard are also a critical component in my opinion, but they're not essential according to tournament placing lists.

How i would have played would have been to drop in my devgants and annihilate as many of your screens as possible with 174 shots. Additionally, I would have my blobs of hormagants get in there as deep as they could and lock things up.

The way to make tyranids work is to give your opponent *required* targets for their shooting. You have to dictate what they shoot and why. If your opponent can pick, they will always target the portion of your army that will do the most damage to them, and you will lose, because tyranids have basically 0 defense.

My guess is that the players you faced probably didn't have that many hormagants. if you're going to run hormagants you need around 60 at minimum in my opinion. Because they die. En masse.

The game with Guard wasn't exceptional. He didn't make it through my defense-in-depth. My only observation of use was that the heavy pressure kept me pinned down.

With the Sisters, he did bring a lot of Hormagaunts, but I killed them. None of his infantry out of something like 150, reached my lines, a lot of it was drawn off to fight Seraphim and St. Celestine, and I kept charging his units so he couldn't make the charges he wanted to. His monsters focused on pressing against the bulk of my troops, but blocked his access with my tanks. I had 7 tanks, and he really didn't have a means to kill them. I used my tanks as my screen to hide my fragile units from his Gunfexes, 'gaunts, gargoyles, and warriors, and it worked out very well, because he couldn't actually kill the tanks.



I don't think Carnifexes are anywhere close to OP, but they're soild.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Masutaman wrote:
But don't you get bored playing this list? The entire premise of the army is to just stand there and shoot. If you move you lose the rerolls.

The fun of Nids is that they are solid in all phases. Mobility, Shooting, Psychers and Combat. The all Kronos list excludes the mobility and the combat. Tyrants do not kill much in combat with only 4 attacks.... Units of 3 warriors are slow and will not kill much in combat either.

To each his own. I run a different list themed around different things in every game. You don't ask guard or tau players if they get sick of standing and shooting all them time.

I wouldnt mind getting a Kroot assault specialist in the new dex...

 Marmatag wrote:
That said, there is a big reason to run Devgants + Trygon. Being able to dump 87 shots at str4 ap0 is great for clearing chaff, and for 2cp you can shoot twice. That's an example of shooting.

Ok I'll bite.
Why 87 shots, rather than the 90 shots a full unit of 30 can fire?