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The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.

 Thargrim wrote:
The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.

The 40k Ork release is also rumoured to be bigger than just the Codex.
And the Space Wolves will probably also have models alongside the Codex. I expect a Primaris Lieutenant at least, returned Russ at best.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
It's more speculation based on the pattern following the release of the Harbringers. We got the Knight of Shrouds, Nighthaunts are coming. We got the Lord Ordinator, the new Stormcast chamber has been released. We got the Grot shaman, there's very strong noise for Moonclan later in the year. Following the pattern, with the release of the Warqueen, Darkoath is the next logical choice.

Also, they’re listed as the main baddy in the AoS “Warhammer Adventures” section, NOT generic ‘barbarians’ or even ‘marauders’; while it’s possible that it’s simply a case of “the bad guys need a name”, I do hope not.

 Thargrim wrote:
The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.

I wouldn't even be surprised if slaanesh comes next summer, during an AoS campaign

For Slaanesh; I'm expecting another January chaos release.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/24/24th-may-rules-preview-summoning-for-freegw-homepage-post-2/


Free summoning. Kinda figured this would happen after they talked about the slaanesh summoning.

 Stus67 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/24/24th-may-rules-preview-summoning-for-freegw-homepage-post-2/


Free summoning. Kinda figured this would happen after they talked about the slaanesh summoning.

I really dread this change. This could be game-breaking.
The summoning we already got with Nurgle and LoN are not that difficult to get. And the armies are really not balanced around free summoning.
I hope this goes hand in hand with a major points increase for summoning armies.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/24/24th-may-rules-preview-summoning-for-freegw-homepage-post-2/


Free summoning. Kinda figured this would happen after they talked about the slaanesh summoning.

I really dread this change. This could be game-breaking.
The summoning we already got with Nurgle and LoN are not that difficult to get. And the armies are really not balanced around free summoning.
I hope this goes hand in hand with a major points increase for summoning armies.

Yeah, they've done a great job with aos so far but free new units makes me nervous. And I play seraphon and LoN and will probably play night haunt.

Ugh... not looking forward to his one.

 Knight wrote:
Ugh... not looking forward to his one.

My Vanguard Chamber with 30 something Gryph-Hounds is! Bring. It. On.

Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?

Lemondish wrote:
Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?

Some lists were built around it, but they were mostly Tzeentch.

Lemondish wrote:
Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?

Not much.
But free units was stupid before GHB2016 and I know we didn't use it.

And now you can't even try to unbind the summoning spells, because they no longer are spells.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?

Some lists were built around it, but they were mostly Tzeentch.

I'm guessing that's the mechanic that causes so much complaining about Tzeentch in general? I guess then the negativity towards free summoning means people expect to see that mechanic more than they already do.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?

Not much.
But free units was stupid before GHB2016 and I know we didn't use it.

And now you can't even try to unbind the summoning spells, because they no longer are spells.

Sure, they're not spells--but when you have caveats like causing a wound but not killing the unit or suffering a wound and not dying to generate one point(which might get you 10 Daemonettes)...do we really think it's going to be super common to see huge masses of summoned units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?

Some lists were built around it, but they were mostly Tzeentch.

I'm guessing that's the mechanic that causes so much complaining about Tzeentch in general? I guess then the negativity towards free summoning means people expect to see that mechanic more than they already do.

Tzeentch gets complained about in general because it's a very strong book with some ridiculously nice units(Skyfires) that are relatively cheap.

How does summoning work for LoN and Nurgle now?

The units aren't free free, though. You have to earn the points to summon them, which at the very least, means your opponent can affect your ability to do so, greatly changing the way you fight against different armies. For instance, the Maggotkin get contagion pts from, I think, having units in either deployment zone, and having gnarlmaws with no enemies nearby - all things that your opponent will no longer let happen.

Based on a quick google:

Expected amount of Contagion Points if both sides have models in both territories on Turn 2 and there is 1 Gnarlmaw on the Board (same numbers based on 2 Gnarlmaws are in brackets).

Turn 1: 5-7 (6-10)

Turn 2: 13-17 (18-22)

Turn 3: 23-27 (30-34)

Turn 4: 33-37 (42-46)

Turn 5: 43-47 (54-58)

(from this review of the battletome)
Not sure what the max summoning capability is though, since I don't know how much summoning costs.

 Astmeister wrote:
How does summoning work for LoN and Nurgle now?

For Nurgle, you need "Contagion Points".

You gain 3 Contagion Points at the start of each of your hero phases if you have any friendly Nurgle models in your own territory and 3 additional contagion points if there are any friendly Nurgle models in the enemy player's territory. You get 1 additional CP if there are no enemy models in the same territory as those models. D3 additional points for each Feculent Gnarlmaw that has no enemy models within 3" of it.

If you have 7 or more CPs at the end of your movement phase, you get to summon something from a list but you have to pay Contagion Points for it and the summoned unit must be set up wholly within 12" of a Feculent Gnarlmaw or friendly Nurgle hero and more than 9" away from any enemy models. If you bring in a Feculent Gnarlmaw, it has to also be set up more than 1" from any terrain features. You subtract the cost from your stash of Contagion Points and move along.

7 CPs gets you 5 Plaguebearers, 1 Nurgling base, or a Feculent Gnarlmaw. 14 gets you a Poxbringer, Sloppity Bilepiper, Spoilpox Scrivener, 10 Plaguebearers, 1 Beast of Nurgle, or 3 Nurgling bases. 21 CPs gets you 20 Plaguebearers, 3 Plague Drones, or Horticulous Slimux. 28 gets you a Great Unclean One.

 Sqorgar wrote:
The units aren't free free, though.

Earning points actually could make for pretty compelling mini-games, and WarCom isn't wrong that it's a distinctly AOS-y 'war of celestial realms' sort of mechanic:

Summoning is one of the most thematic parts of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – whether it’s packs of Daemons ripping their way into reality, the dead rising from their graves or Seraphon manifesting in glittering beams of celestial starlight.

I mean, I hate it from a balance standpoint and don't believe for a second that some factions won't have much easier mini-games and others won't have much harder ones, but I feel like it fits the dimensional conflict thing fairly well. And/or also enforces that the game isn't intended to be competitive

- Salvage

So if you play nurgle, you will probably have enough points to summon a guo by turn 3. That's a pretty significant boost to an army. I am very curious how they are going to try to balance this in matched play.

Legion of Nagash faction focus

As if there wasn’t enough good news for the Legions of Nagash – we’ve got some exciting announcements about the new Nighthaunt units. While the Nighthaunt will be getting fully realised as a faction in their own right, many of their units will also be accessible for Legions of Nagash armies – so if you’ve been eyeing up the new models, now you’ve got an excuse to pick them up…

That's Great News!

Yay for new Nighthaunt able to get into LoN !

Well. Arkhan isn't enough. Time to buy Nagash after all...

For LoN you need to have:
A) a unit that has died, been completely wiped out
B) your general within 9" of a gravesite
C) no enemies within 1"of the gravesite
D) spend a command point
You can do it once a turn and honestly, if you have unit that have died and you want to resurrect that probably wasn't a 40 man unit of grave guard.

Moreover, you do this in your hero phase. Meaning if the opponent is on a gravesite you can't kill them off it to use the ability. You can't even move over there. You need to move to the site and plan ahead one turn in advance and just hope your opponent can't get onto the gravesite in their turn.
You then get a chance to kill whatever your opponent definitely put there with magic but if you can't then no summoning for you.

Yeah the LoN summoning is...limited. Once per battle you'll summon back some skeletons or Black Knights or grave guard but that's about it. Which is about right, especially that your general can't then use their command ability.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.

The 40k Ork release is also rumoured to be bigger than just the Codex.
And the Space Wolves will probably also have models alongside the Codex. I expect a Primaris Lieutenant at least, returned Russ at best.

That's great news for the Space Orks, they need some love.

Don't forget, that aside from the SW, there's still the knights, and the Genestealer cults (who will hopefully get at least a separate box of aberrations, at best a LIMO!!!). I'm guessing the Ynari and possibly sisters of silence will get armies as well, but no idea if they've been rolled into one of the other existing armies.

I hope that moonclan grots, and savage/forest greenskins will get books as well, as I feel like destruction has been pretty neglected so far in AoS.

With that, the new titan game, and Rogue trader game due out this year, plus more BB teams, Necromunda stuff, and shadespire, there's a lot that can fill up the release schedule.

 Sqorgar wrote:
The units aren't free free, though. You have to earn the points to summon them, which at the very least, means your opponent can affect your ability to do so, greatly changing the way you fight against different armies. For instance, the Maggotkin get contagion pts from, I think, having units in either deployment zone, and having gnarlmaws with no enemies nearby - all things that your opponent will no longer let happen.

Based on a quick google:

Expected amount of Contagion Points if both sides have models in both territories on Turn 2 and there is 1 Gnarlmaw on the Board (same numbers based on 2 Gnarlmaws are in brackets).

Turn 1: 5-7 (6-10)

Turn 2: 13-17 (18-22)

Turn 3: 23-27 (30-34)

Turn 4: 33-37 (42-46)

Turn 5: 43-47 (54-58)

(from this review of the battletome)

Not sure what the max summoning capability is though, since I don't know how much summoning costs.

On that chart a Maggotkin army can get up to 700 free points per game, or a GUO every 3 turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aren73 wrote:
For LoN you need to have:
A) a unit that has died, been completely wiped out
B) your general within 9" of a gravesite
C) no enemies within 1"of the gravesite
D) spend a command point
You can do it once a turn and honestly, if you have unit that have died and you want to resurrect that probably wasn't a 40 man unit of grave guard.

Moreover, you do this in your hero phase. Meaning if the opponent is on a gravesite you can't kill them off it to use the ability. You can't even move over there. You need to move to the site and plan ahead one turn in advance and just hope your opponent can't get onto the gravesite in their turn.
You then get a chance to kill whatever your opponent definitely put there with magic but if you can't then no summoning for you.

Yeah the LoN summoning is...limited. Once per battle you'll summon back some skeletons or Black Knights or grave guard but that's about it. Which is about right, especially that your general can't then use their command ability.

Why would it be once per game and how do you know you can only do it once per turn? All we know so far is that the command ability costs command points, we don't know that each hero is only allowed to do one command ability per turn. You're also underselling the value of 'some skeletons' or 'some black knights'.

500pts of resurrections is EASILY possible in all but the quickest blowouts, but you could spam out 1000pts or more across a couple turns. Your opponent isn't realistically going to be able to block every gravesite and if they try to overextend and go for the one your general is on they could end up losing before the summons even come in. I would honestly be surprised if any unit of hexwraiths or blackknights ever fully die ever again.

In the nurgle case it is in each of their hero phases that they get points, so we are realistic talking an absolute maximum of two guos per game, with the second arriving when the game is pretty much finished. The opponent can also put units near the gnarlmaws to limit points accumulation. It is a potentially powerful ability but it is a million miles away from the craziness at the launch of aos.

ERJAK wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
The units aren't free free, though. You have to earn the points to summon them, which at the very least, means your opponent can affect your ability to do so, greatly changing the way you fight against different armies. For instance, the Maggotkin get contagion pts from, I think, having units in either deployment zone, and having gnarlmaws with no enemies nearby - all things that your opponent will no longer let happen.

Based on a quick google:

Expected amount of Contagion Points if both sides have models in both territories on Turn 2 and there is 1 Gnarlmaw on the Board (same numbers based on 2 Gnarlmaws are in brackets).

Turn 1: 5-7 (6-10)

Turn 2: 13-17 (18-22)

Turn 3: 23-27 (30-34)

Turn 4: 33-37 (42-46)

Turn 5: 43-47 (54-58)

(from this review of the battletome)

Not sure what the max summoning capability is though, since I don't know how much summoning costs.

On that chart a Maggotkin army can get up to 700 free points per game, or a GUO every 3 turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aren73 wrote:
For LoN you need to have:
A) a unit that has died, been completely wiped out
B) your general within 9" of a gravesite
C) no enemies within 1"of the gravesite
D) spend a command point
You can do it once a turn and honestly, if you have unit that have died and you want to resurrect that probably wasn't a 40 man unit of grave guard.

Moreover, you do this in your hero phase. Meaning if the opponent is on a gravesite you can't kill them off it to use the ability. You can't even move over there. You need to move to the site and plan ahead one turn in advance and just hope your opponent can't get onto the gravesite in their turn.
You then get a chance to kill whatever your opponent definitely put there with magic but if you can't then no summoning for you.

Yeah the LoN summoning is...limited. Once per battle you'll summon back some skeletons or Black Knights or grave guard but that's about it. Which is about right, especially that your general can't then use their command ability.

Why would it be once per game and how do you know you can only do it once per turn? All we know so far is that the command ability costs command points, we don't know that each hero is only allowed to do one command ability per turn. You're also underselling the value of 'some skeletons' or 'some black knights'.

500pts of resurrections is EASILY possible in all but the quickest blowouts, but you could spam out 1000pts or more across a couple turns. Your opponent isn't realistically going to be able to block every gravesite and if they try to overextend and go for the one your general is on they could end up losing before the summons even come in. I would honestly be surprised if any unit of hexwraiths or blackknights ever fully die ever again.

Yeah...none of this is realistic. Sorry to say but your hyperbole is starting to get annoying, bub.

Using your same logic - all we know for certain is that you can summon one fully dead unit under those very limited conditions for 1CP. Since the only thing we know for certain on CP gain values is that you gain 1CP per turn, then it's clear this is just all wild speciation. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but your alarmist behaviour is embarrassing.

Sure, it's a powerful tool. You'll need to find a way to counter it. The important thing to remember is not to go to pieces over it.

All we can make right now are assumptions, but I'm hesitant to believe this will be a good change to the game. Summoning has been done in different ways in 40k and WHFB and many of them were so busted that they needed individual tournaments to make extra rulings on how many points worth of models you could bring in.

That said, like with all of the rules that we've seen so far, we haven't seen the full picture. There could be more limitations that we don't know about, and honestly I wish GW would have illuminated us on some of those limitations to prevent some of this hyperbole and sky-is-falling mentality.

For all we know there could be a 300 point limit on how much you can summon in a game. There could be a limit on how many times you can summon at all through a game (maybe only one per turn or less. Maybe only 2 or 3 per game). There could be further balances such as points for units in an army with summoning going up across the board. Chaos and Undead armies, for example, could see an overall price hike when it comes to things you can summon to A. encourage summoning but B. balance how much you actually get. GW could also be planning on balancing summoning against the persistent spells that every army will have access to.

And, ultimately, if the summoning system creates situations that are not fun for players and push people away from a game that they are trying VERY hard to get more people into, then they're going to change it. They'll FAQ the new core rules due to player feedback after play-testing. The last thing they want is for one rule to be the death knell for the brand new edition and see sales plummet. Let's be real, summoning as it is currently isn't helping GW sell models, but if you can summon extra units to a field, that means people that already have full 2000 point armies will be encouraged to buy more models in case they get to summon them through a game. That's the scheme. If it backfires, they'll change it.

And yet, I STILL can't help but be worried. The least fun moments in a game are when a Nurgle player makes a ton of Disgustingly Resilient saves, or when a Necron player makes a ton of Reanimation Protocol rolls when you fail to knock out the last model in a unit. It's also very un-fun to feel like someone has a distinct and clear advantage over you just because they're playing x or y army and get 'free' units when you don't. Having just bought into Idoneth Deepkin that likely will have no form of summoning, I'm apprehensive about fighting in my local meta that's made up of a LOT of armies that WILL have summoning. Seraphon, Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, and all flavors of undead are very common armies, and to be playing an army that doesn't get a free 200-400 point model that I can stick nearly anywhere on the table on turn 3 or 4 is... worrisome. It doesn't sound fun. It sounds like a huge drag, to be completely honest.

But, we'll see how it plays out. I'm excited to hear about the persistent spells and I hope that they help bring the balance and allow me to knock on those 'free' units when they appear without worry.

"Units won’t be the only thing you can summon in the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – stay tuned for more exciting news on the way for EVERY army later in the week…"

I guess this bit at the end of the Warhammer Community post is referring to the new endless and predatory spells.

I'm hoping that if someone summons units, they won't have enough spells/command points to cast these, but their opponents will.

In other words, your opponent summons some skellies back, then you summon a giant chompy mouth that mortal wounds them for breakfast.

At least that's what I'm hoping.

ERJAK - OK then let's walk through it.

Turn one you're summoning nothing, probably no unit of yours has been wiped out and you're not on a gravesite.

Turn 2 you needed your opponent to paste one of your units turn 1/their turn 2 which is not impossible but only some armies have that firepower/threat range. Now you can summon if in turn one you made sure your GENERAL was on a gravesite. Let's be honest, you didn't, you didn't know if what your opponent kills on turn 2 you necessarily want back, you probably didn't know they definitely would kill a whole unit, they could after all leave it with one man remaining.

Turns 3-5 are most probable for summoning. You have units that are dead and you can manouver. Except, do you know how easy it is for a competent player to cock-block our summoning?
You need to move your general to the gravesite the turn prior and all they need to do is plonk a unit on it and you get nothing. One gryph-hound would stop the whole thing. They get a whole turn to move there and it's obvious what you're doing, they know what's happening. Yeah.

So, your general is on a gravesite, the opponent can't really get there in time, you're good right? HAHA NO YOU'RE FLIPPING NOT! All they need to do is kill your general. Shooting armies will not struggle with that, neither will magic armies. Spells that move models around would be hilarious at this point. If they make it their plan to kill your general turn 1 they'll probably manage.

Phew, you made it! Some of your units are dead, you're on a gravesite, the opponent can't make it there, your general is alive...so what do? You can spend a command point and summon a unit (only once because only one model in your army can do this and that's your general). Now your unit must fit in a 9" bubble around the gravesite. So no 60 man skeleton hordes. You'll probably summon a medium unit of grave guard, some black knights, some skeletons, some dire wolves or spirit hosts. They're all fine units except all but two are quite slow and without a sizeable amount of support they don't hit THAT hard. You might want to just use them for objective grabbing, that's what I'd do anyway.


To summarise - you'd only use it once per game because first, you can only use it once per turn due to only your general having access to it and I'm certain GW won't let you spam the same command ability from the same dude multiple times a turn. Second, it's very restrictive and very easy to counter...you're actually pretty lucky if your opponent let's you summon and if they do they won't let you do it twice.

You need to be winning the game by a landslide if you're allowed to summon multiple times. By which point who cares? You're winning anyway, chances are you don't have enough units dead to summon multiple times anyway.

I actually think the summoning for LoN is perhaps too restrictive, it's not really a nice bonus, it's something you have to force to happen. Would be a lot better if you could summon after you move your general and not before.

As for idoneth - you have way too many fast units to let someone summon. You can either kill the general or cock-block the site he sits on, neither of which should be a problem. Multiple small units of eel riders would easily be able to park on gravesite and an Akhelian King kitted for hero slaying could remove their general. You're fine.