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 Adam Spielmann wrote:
They also mentioned lowering the points for spirits of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters too, so, it won't surprise me to see a lot of big models around.

As we know those two were really underperforming *eyeroll*

It seems to me that we're looking at an across-the-board points drop. More models on the board for everyone. I'd definitely wait to see the big picture before making any judgement on points balance.

I'll certainly get a good laugh if my tourney army is still totally OP after a second round of rebalancing. Doubly so if it survives GHB3 as well.

 EnTyme wrote:
It seems to me that we're looking at an across-the-board points drop. More models on the board for everyone. I'd definitely wait to see the big picture before making any judgement on points balance.

I don't see any evidence of that. Only 3 faction focuses so far have had points drops in them, and they mention very specific units, and not every army has summoning.


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Adam Spielmann wrote:
They also mentioned lowering the points for spirits of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters too, so, it won't surprise me to see a lot of big models around.

As we know those two were really underperforming *eyeroll*

With the shooting changes, bow Kurnoths were overpriced. Don't get the Durthu thing though.


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Chopxsticks wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Chopxsticks wrote:
But every army is going to get to summon, so wouldnt your opponent have the same opportunity to summon something to counter or deal with said Kurnoth Hunters?

So what they actually said was this "Units won’t be the only thing you can summon in the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – stay tuned for more exciting news on the way for EVERY army later in the week" which is referring to the endless spells, which require wizards. Which means that not only does every army NOT get free units, any army that doesn't have STRONG magic gets no summons at all. Even armies like Idoneth and DoK are never actually going to get to use these on the simple basis that Arkhan, Nagash, and the LoC exist.

So far, my pessimistic viewpoint is that they're destroying any semblance of balance in matched play for the sake of making you buy hundreds of dollars of extra models(gotta buy that extra 400pts of stuff I can summon, gotta buy all the endless spell models, gotta buy a new army because mine can't summon)

My more optimistic viewpoint is that they're using game mechanics to force you to buy hundreds of dollars of extra models and are maybe going to put some effort into rebalancing for matched play, so that things should be good enough after the first or second big FAQ.

Ok so you jumped from every army will have a way to summon units to endless spells? So what are we discussing now? I still think summoning mid battle only helps you counter and adjust for things you might not have prepared for. I also still think every army will have some way of summoning units.




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100 pt reduction on Boneripper! Makes me wonder what other crazy reductions we are going to see. I'd be happy to see more large models on a table and not have to push around 50 models in a single Unit.

I took the only possible thing that you could have seen to suggest that every army will get summoning and pointed out that it probably refers to endless spells. It is extremely unlikely that every army will have ways to summon units.

ERJAK wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Adam Spielmann wrote:
They also mentioned lowering the points for spirits of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters too, so, it won't surprise me to see a lot of big models around.

As we know those two were really underperforming *eyeroll*

With the shooting changes, bow Kurnoths were overpriced. Don't get the Durthu thing though.

You're right, didn't think of that.

Chopxsticks wrote:

100 pt reduction on Boneripper! Makes me wonder what other crazy reductions we are going to see. I'd be happy to see more large models on a table and not have to push around 50 models in a single Unit.

We will doubtless see a lot more crazy reductions. I don't know that it will necessarily change the ratio of "large-to-small" models on the table though. Those points saved on the big boys can just as easily be spent on more chaff as on more large monsters/heroes. I know GW is a company and making more money is the bottom line, but I'm super bummed on all of these "more models on the table!" changes. I liked the small scale of AoS. I get though that they need some way of making sales after people have assembled their armies.

I don't care about the scale; everything being cheaper can be undone by playing smaller games. What I care about is models costing way less than they should. The reason GHB2 is better than GHB1 is because the horde discount is harder to take advantage of tactically as well as practically. Going back to GHB1 days of 'spam elite stuff and win' would be disappointing to say the least, especially because in a number of areas that never went away.

ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...

I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.

Chikout wrote:
I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.

Recovering a dead unit is less useful than having two of that unit in the first place.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.

Recovering a dead unit is less useful than having two of that unit in the first place.

Maybe a little. So far only Sylvaneth allows you to summon a unit turn one, and bringing a unit on early when it will be vulnerable to shooting and magic, is much less impactful than bringing it on in turn 2 or 3 when it can secure an objective or swing an important fight. If I am choosing one the units that have died it will give me a little less flexibility than someone who has brought a bunch of extra models and has free choice but
I still think I will be able to play the summoning game pretty effectively without spending any extra money.

Tell you what, take a unit and when it dies return in to the battlefield. Use it to fight an enemy who simply has two of that unit. Let us know how it goes.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Tell you what, take a unit and when it dies return in to the battlefield. Use it to fight an enemy who simply has two of that unit. Let us know how it goes.

You seem to be rather obtusely missing the point. That is not how summoning or the game in general works.
Let's say I have two units of bloodletters on the table, one summoned and one from my original list. One unit gets charged by a unit of brutes and wiped out. The brutes can then consolidate into the second unit and wipe that out too.
Alternatively I have one unit of bloodletters. They get charged by brutes and wiped out. I then summon the 'new' unit of bloodletters and counter charge, wiping out the brutes in return.
The point is that I effectively do have two units. One to soak up the charge, or shooting, or magic and a second to counter.

But this is all besides the point. Death summoning is exactly I have described it, so no need to buy extra models. All the chaos armies depend on the accumulation of points so cannot summon at the start of the game.
The only cases where I really need more models are if I want to bring a Sylvaneth unit on at the start of the game, or if I manage to roll a double six when using my screaming bell, and can summon a vermin lord.

So we are talking a maximum of $90 extra in some edge case scenarios. Not the hundreds of dollars that some people are claiming. As for the endless spells you might need to buy some appropriate sized bases and a few craft materials to scratch build the spells.
That said I probably will but the giant flaming teeth, simply because it is cool.

Unless summoned units dont give up points, that dreaded theireenth spell seems bad. Plop down 6-7 clan rats, they get sneezed at and die, thats VP for the enemy.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Unless summoned units dont give up points, that dreaded theireenth spell seems bad. Plop down 6-7 clan rats, they get sneezed at and die, thats VP for the enemy.

Matched play doesn't operate under VP.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Unless summoned units dont give up points, that dreaded theireenth spell seems bad. Plop down 6-7 clan rats, they get sneezed at and die, thats VP for the enemy.

That will only matter if you and your opponent are tied on points at the end of the game, or there was no clear winner denoted in the objectives...

Flesh Eater Courts Faction Focus
Juicy tidbit here...

These abilities now cost no reinforcement points and have been tweaked so they work once per Ghoul King. In short, this means that every Ghoul King essentially comes with a free unit, while your Courtiers will ensure they stay in the fight. Our recommendation? Take a Royal Family Warscroll Battalion, max out on Ghoul Kings of your choice and quickly multiply your army with command points for maximum efficiency.

Chikout wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Tell you what, take a unit and when it dies return in to the battlefield. Use it to fight an enemy who simply has two of that unit. Let us know how it goes.

You seem to be rather obtusely missing the point. That is not how summoning or the game in general works.
Let's say I have two units of bloodletters on the table, one summoned and one from my original list. One unit gets charged by a unit of brutes and wiped out. The brutes can then consolidate into the second unit and wipe that out too.
Alternatively I have one unit of bloodletters. They get charged by brutes and wiped out. I then summon the 'new' unit of bloodletters and counter charge, wiping out the brutes in return.
The point is that I effectively do have two units. One to soak up the charge, or shooting, or magic and a second to counter.

That's... An absurdly specific example that would only work if you specifically positioned your bloodletters to let him do that. Besides, realistically you re-summon the dead unit, fail the 9" charge then die even more readily than you would have. Verses having the second unit behind the first ready to charge or even just pile in when the first is dead. You also dodged my obvious point where my scenario obviously favors the player with two units. I get what you're saying with saving money and making the best of what you have, that's entirely valid. But the idea that re-summoning dead units is just as good or somehow better than just having them from the start is silly.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
Flesh Eater Courts Faction Focus
Juicy tidbit here...

These abilities now cost no reinforcement points and have been tweaked so they work once per Ghoul King. In short, this means that every Ghoul King essentially comes with a free unit, while your Courtiers will ensure they stay in the fight. Our recommendation? Take a Royal Family Warscroll Battalion, max out on Ghoul Kings of your choice and quickly multiply your army with command points for maximum efficiency.

Interesting indeed. Though it leaves the question of units going above maximum size. If they are allowed to do so freely I can see some issues.

If you only get a single unit having it from the start is going to be more powerful,

but if you only get a single unit at the start, or the possibility to bring back multiple dead units (especially if you tailor your play knowing your going to do so) I suspect the latter will be better

Chikout wrote:
I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.

Not every summoning strategy brings back dead units, you'll also want to be flexible in what you can summon. If you only have a LoC to summon but 20 horrors would win you the game, that's a problem.


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Chopxsticks wrote:
ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...

If 'Several armies have essentially moved from 2000pts to 2500pts increasing the amount of models people playing those armies are likely to buy' combined with 'they're releasing multiple near mandatory terrain kits every magical army will find desirable while admitting at warhammerfest that it's going to create issues for armies that don't have strong magic' doesn't qualify as at least SOME evidence of GW trying to artificially increase the amount of models people buy, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm a bit doom and gloom at the moment, because most of what we've seen so far has been pretty doomy/gloomy. In fact, as much as I don't like free summoning, I actually like what we know about the realm system even less.

ERJAK wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.

Not every summoning strategy brings back dead units, you'll also want to be flexible in what you can summon. If you only have a LoC to summon but 20 horrors would win you the game, that's a problem.


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Chopxsticks wrote:
ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...

If 'Several armies have essentially moved from 2000pts to 2500pts increasing the amount of models people playing those armies are likely to buy' combined with 'they're releasing multiple near mandatory terrain kits every magical army will find desirable while admitting at warhammerfest that it's going to create issues for armies that don't have strong magic' doesn't qualify as at least SOME evidence of GW trying to artificially increase the amount of models people buy, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm a bit doom and gloom at the moment, because most of what we've seen so far has been pretty doomy/gloomy. In fact, as much as I don't like free summoning, I actually like what we know about the realm system even less.

Literally no different from points reductions.

Points free summoning CAN work. Other games have pulled it off successfully. There is no reason GW can't. The question is, will they.

There are 4 books that have been written for the new edition. LoN, DoK, Maggotkin, and IDK.

Those are the only books we should be comparing to each other atm, as everything else is going to have to be tweaked in one way or the other.

And honestly, I don't rate Nurgle or Legions summoning traits any higher than IDKs trait that allows them to completely control their opponents shooting phase.

So, summoning cheese table so far:
1.Flesh eater courts - get to summon a free new unit per ghoul King per game. You can have many ghoul Kings. There will be tons of cannibals on the board, quick.
2.Allariel, summon a free unit once per game. Simple and powerful.
3. Bloodhound, Maggotkin and Slannesh - all of these involve accumulating currency throughout the game and then paying for units using that.
4. Legions of Nagash - when a summonable unit dies, your general can summon it back from a gravesite, following some serious restrictions
5. Skaven - maybe will randomly summon units from spells or Bell, not really a strategy...just a random thing.

All ranked. Flesh eater courts will be a pain to play against I'm sure.

On another note...I do think that that's how AoS should be played. In the lore you'd be swarmed by ghouls and it WON'T be a fair fight. Skeletons will keep coming back if you kill them. We're not playing chess and some things I think could be deliberately unfair, as long as you always have the chance to beat them. For tournaments it's another matter completely but that's tournaments. In 99% of casual play I'd say it is more thematic and appropriate for summoning to work like this even if it is favouring summoning factions. Of course that's highly subjective, you play how you want to play, this is just my take.

Flesh Eater courts were pretty close to the bottom of the list before this. Summoning is the one good thing they have unlike Nurgle and Tzeentch, who were already pretty good.

My guess is that Tzeentch, Nurgle, Legions of Nagash, Nighthaunt, Stormcast, Seraphon, Daughters of Khaine, and Ironjaws will do very well, (the last two due to very effective command point combos). Kharadron Overlords, Free peoples,
Dispossessed, and Beastclaw raiders will suffer due to a lack of magic, summoning or effective command point combos. The rest will be OK.

Lemondish wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.

Not every summoning strategy brings back dead units, you'll also want to be flexible in what you can summon. If you only have a LoC to summon but 20 horrors would win you the game, that's a problem.


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Chopxsticks wrote:
ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...

If 'Several armies have essentially moved from 2000pts to 2500pts increasing the amount of models people playing those armies are likely to buy' combined with 'they're releasing multiple near mandatory terrain kits every magical army will find desirable while admitting at warhammerfest that it's going to create issues for armies that don't have strong magic' doesn't qualify as at least SOME evidence of GW trying to artificially increase the amount of models people buy, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm a bit doom and gloom at the moment, because most of what we've seen so far has been pretty doomy/gloomy. In fact, as much as I don't like free summoning, I actually like what we know about the realm system even less.

Literally no different from points reductions.

...sigh, no imagination at all, lol. It's a big difference from point reductions, it's actually hugely superior to just dropping points on things in terms of Dollars earned. The different summoning systems means that what you'll be able to summon and what you'll need to summon change every game. If they drop an army's points so that 2000pts becomes 1500pts, the player will have to buy 500pts. If they let you summon 500ish points every game, then you're going to need to buy more than 500pts(most of the time).

Let's say I'm playing maggotkin and they drop everything so that powerlevels are the same relative to each other, but everything together is 500pts cheaper. In that case I buy a GUO and 5 putrid blight kings and my list is complete again. If they let me summon 500ish points of units then I need a GUO, 20-40 additional plaguebearers, Plague Drones, an extra herald, etc because not only do I not know in advance exactly what'll I'll be able to summon, I won't know what the game will call for either.

Legions of Nagash obviously aren't like this, but they're fairly unique in that regard.


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Chikout wrote:
Flesh Eater courts were pretty close to the bottom of the list before this. Summoning is the one good thing they have unlike Nurgle and Tzeentch, who were already pretty good.

My guess is that Tzeentch, Nurgle, Legions of Nagash, Nighthaunt, Stormcast, Seraphon, Daughters of Khaine, and Ironjaws will do very well, (the last two due to very effective command point combos). Kharadron Overlords, Free peoples,
Dispossessed, and Beastclaw raiders will suffer due to a lack of magic, summoning or effective command point combos. The rest will be OK.

I don't think command points and the universal command abilities are going to be enough to deal with how badly the rest of the changes we've seen so far hammer DoK. Purple Sun by itself is enough to rethink bringing DoK to any competitive events.


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Aren73 wrote:
So, summoning cheese table so far:
1.Flesh eater courts - get to summon a free new unit per ghoul King per game. You can have many ghoul Kings. There will be tons of cannibals on the board, quick.
2.Allariel, summon a free unit once per game. Simple and powerful.
3. Bloodhound, Maggotkin and Slannesh - all of these involve accumulating currency throughout the game and then paying for units using that.
4. Legions of Nagash - when a summonable unit dies, your general can summon it back from a gravesite, following some serious restrictions
5. Skaven - maybe will randomly summon units from spells or Bell, not really a strategy...just a random thing.

All ranked. Flesh eater courts will be a pain to play against I'm sure.

On another note...I do think that that's how AoS should be played. In the lore you'd be swarmed by ghouls and it WON'T be a fair fight. Skeletons will keep coming back if you kill them. We're not playing chess and some things I think could be deliberately unfair, as long as you always have the chance to beat them. For tournaments it's another matter completely but that's tournaments. In 99% of casual play I'd say it is more thematic and appropriate for summoning to work like this even if it is favouring summoning factions. Of course that's highly subjective, you play how you want to play, this is just my take.

My personal take is that there's never a thematic gain large enough to offset a balance loss. If you win games, even in a casual setting, because your army was just flat out better than your opponents, you don't remember how thematic it was that none of your units died, you remember feeling bad over watching your opponent get frustrated and downtrodden.

@ERJAK - Fair enough, I see what you mean, it's a fair point and it will be subjective and different for everyone. Personally I like losing as long as the game wasn't one-sided to such a point that there was nothing I could do. I hate games of say 40k where half my army is wiped out turn 1 by shooting and then it's just like "well, I guess I should just go f*** myself then".

Fighting Flesh Eater courts will be annoying and unfair now I guess, however you know that a) you can win, it's not impossible and b) you can see they'd take heavy losses from your army, it's not like you can't do anything

That is fine for me, if I can say that yes, my army was overcome by a tide of ghouls but I killed most of them in the process then that sounds like a decently fun game.

It's up to GW to make sure that these armies don't just steamroll their opponent. From what we've seen I don't think that's the case.

Shooting

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/28/28th-may-rules-preview-shooting-in-combatgw-homepage-post-2/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/28/28th-may-faction-focus-kharadron-overlordsgw-homepage-post-3/


Basically, just points drops.

ERJAK wrote:
*snip*

Thanks for agreeing.

Your argument boiled down to trying to present it as different, when all you managed to do in that novel was dance around how it's the same result, just different levels of impact.

Everybody is so focused on "free points" in a 2k point game when the same exact thing could be achieved by reducing the points costs of those units by an amount that allows you to field more of them. That type of balancing happens all the time and nobody has an issue with that method. The difference here being that those units start on the board.

What if instead of major cost reductions they do a minor or zero point cost reduction and hand out free summoning in a limited manner? The result is the same - more models in the game, but one of those is boring because you just start with more and they do nothing different or serve no different purpose while the other adds tactical flexibility and a compelling decision for both players, changing up the game for everyone.

My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.

Pretty sure Ghoul Kings will be going up in points anyways to compensate for their new abilities (which are single use per king). Probably 200 points each. Keep in mind they can't heal units, you still need Courtiers for that, so a balance of both will be key for FEC armies.

And they are one of the absolute weakest armies in the game. presently. Having the strongest summoning mechanic might just put them in par.