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2018/01/14 03:46:40
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ultra are basically an all fly key word army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 03:51:28
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 04:25:54
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Fight the good fight Primark. It's refreshing to see someone stand up against the total delusions of the usual suspects. Space marines are absolutely a competitive codex, the fact that had the same amount of wins as the "overpowered" imperial guard last years, including a list that had 6 squads of tactical marines should be enough to show that the claims of marines being the worse are bald faced lies but they're keep on going.
That means so much to me Luke. Thank you for your kind kudos from the very bottom of my heart.
<3
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 05:52:50
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm going to jump in with some two cents about some things with the disclaimer that I am not a national level tournament player, but I feel some things should be said about some point raised:
Scouts: decent rules on these guys, mixed with being 2ppm cheaper than Tacticals (and the cheapest troop choice for Marines period) make these a reasonable bare bones choice for someone looking to fill their Troops quota without loading up on a bunch of stuff. A squad of 5 with bolters will only run 55 points which is a steal for Marine players, and even if you go up to ten they'll only set you back 110 points base.
Basically you use these guys a lot like Battle Sisters: slightly more fragile versions of Marines whom you can use to hold objectives or support other units via shooting at a medium to close range (basically just inside of Rapid Fire range).
Now they aren't going to be more points efficient than Imperial Guard, or some things in other armies, but they will at least give you some cheaper troops you can use to do things with if you're one of those people avoiding the Imperial Soup approach to list building.
Marines in General:
We can argue points efficiency all day, but honestly I feel that's better suited as a tool to decide to take codex unit a or codex unit b inside of the same codex. Once you start comparing options inside of different armies with all the different toys they have it gets hard to give fair assessments to things.
Bare bones Tactical Marines running bolters can put more wounds on a wide array of units while not taking as many wounds back. I've crunched numbers on this and this is one of the reasons I actually feel that the current points system actually has a fair amount of balance when we exclude all other factors and bonuses. When we start factoring in all the ways an army can buff itself is when the scale of balance basically gives up and runs home crying tears of blood.
What I've come to see as a problem is less the points costs for specific models, or even wargear, but rather all the things armies are being given for free.
The worst offender of these is definitely stratagems. Marines are currently paying 1-2 more command points for a number of stratagems that other armies have, but only have to pay a single point for. Yes, Marines are "tankier" than other armies, but they're still largely single wound models (outside of more elite units like Primaris and Terminator models), and even then they don't match the potential damage out put or wound count of horde armies of the same points level. 130 points can get you 10 points of Tactical Marines, or 32 Guardsmen, or 32 Termagaunts, or 12 Scouts, or.... you get the point. The slight bump from S3 to S4 for a bolter with no AP value is not enough to make up for lower number of shots (even with the 1/6 increase in wounding against most things, or the 1/6 increase in hitting most things compared to a number of models/units) and the slight bump in toughness and save over some units doesn't give the Marines the staying power to really fix the problem either.
Sure cover gives Marines a 2+ save but the combination of how many ways there are to strip cover, and the number of ways there are to reduce a Marine's armour save means that any cover you have needs to basically block line of sight or it's not going to benefit the unit.
I know this sounds odd considering that I starting by saying that Marines aren't that bad, but remember, that's only in a perfect vacuum where we compare the number of wounds traded, not the points lost from said wounds.
And let's not even get into the mess that is Orders versus Chapter Tactics. I'm still trying to work out how Marines, who have hundreds of years of training and combat experience over normal humans, are less tactically flexible than humans, many of which were only fully trained en route to whatever theater of war they're being sent to die in.
Even Guilliman, the tactical genius who penned the original Codex Astartes which was said to have tactics for just about every situation, every foe known to man at that time, and every possible way to cordinate your forces doesn't even escape this problem. Humans who probably haven't even started shaving yet are more capable of adjusting tactics on the fly than a PRIMARCH. What. The. Smegging. Warp.
I'm not saying Marines should have Orders, oh definitely not, but they should have rules under their Chapter Tactics you can adjust to. Say two, maybe three things that are themed around how the chapter handles things. One for facing foes that outnumber them, one for facing big threats (like Primarchs, knights, ect), and one for dealing with MEQ. Something you can have a unit change from one to the next based on what you want it to do that turn (just like you can with Orders only the unit doesn't need an HQ to turn the rule on, they unit just does it).
Basically, the Marines need the tactical flexibility that makes them stand out in the fluff for them to stand out on the table, and they need to be able to do it without paying extra on stratagems that everyone else gets cheaper at the discount store.
Primaris:
Okay, I'm done venting like a warp core threatening to breach and can calmly state my case about Primaris.
Primaris Marines aren't solely to be what we think Marines "should" be like. I mean it's definitely part of it, and it feels that was part of the design goal with their rules and stats, but I think there is another point to be made for them and their limited wargear options.
See, the Primaris are trying to be what we feel an army of elite post-humans should be while also calling back to the Horus Heresy with specialized units that focus around one task (thinning hordes, killing elite units, ect). Horus Heresy armies play more like powered armoured Eldar with units synergizing with each other to accomplish goals. It's a neat nod to how someone like Guilliman would likely have established the program during the days of the Scouring Era before the final form of Space Marines Chapters were likely founded. Basically they're the Legions given a modern, more chapter focused, take.
Tabletop wise though I feel that they basically suffer from the same problems regular Marines do. They are easily outgunned and can be suppressed due to the high number of wounds enemy armies are currently bringing to the table, and while tougher than regular Marines their extra cost for that additional toughness just makes them face the same problem at an increased rate.
Speaking from experience with Sisters: when you can bring more models to the table than the opponent, your chances of winning increase just because they won't be able to kill everything fast enough.
This whole mess for both kinds of Marines is only compounded further by the fact that the anti-horde weapons of old are basically not functioning well enough. They don't scale well to large units (I really feel they should be on a D3 system with small blasts getting an extra die if the unit has ten or more models and the large blasts getting a D3 for every 5 models in the target unit, with both getting at least one die) nor do they points cost appropriately for what they can do on the table. This poor functionality for anti-horde weapons is frankly why things like the Vindicator aren't seeing games nearly as much as they should.
This whole giant post but I feel you neglected to mention important marine benefits like:
Morale. ATSKNF is not what it was, but theres a lot of mathammer around that doesn't take morale into consideration. In general, marines lose fewer models to morale rolls and this is important.
Weapons. Marines have the largest armory in the game, as well as the most options available to many of their squads, which is big. Sisters don't have access to Plasma, for example. Guard have Plasma but aren't as reliable. Grav Cannons are also excellent weapons, and a Space Marine specialty. You talk about straight bolter marines to make comparissons, but don't acknowledge that it ain't the bolters that are being relied on to do the damage a lot of the time.
Rerolls. I believe marines have the easiest access to rerolls of any army, and I'm not even talking about Gman. Captains and lieutenants, plus the Chapter Master upgrade, or even Salamanders Tactics if you want to bring army traits into it.
. . . .
Guillimans rerolls are great and all, but IMO his bonus is more effective when you're shooting weapons at the wrong targets, like Assault Cannons at tanks. If you take the Chapter Master + Lieutenant combo and shoot at the right targets (Meaning where weapons are wounding on a 3+, like Las against vehicles and Plasma/Grav vs. Elites) the difference between Gman and the Lieutenant for wound rolls is less. You also save about 200 points.
My more competetive marine lists are swarms of marines with rerolls and big guns. I'm working my way towards a list with 90ish power armored bodies and I think it'll be pretty solid.
Luke_Prowler wrote: Fight the good fight Primark. It's refreshing to see someone stand up against the total delusions of the usual suspects. Space marines are absolutely a competitive codex, the fact that had the same amount of wins as the "overpowered" imperial guard last years, including a list that had 6 squads of tactical marines should be enough to show that the claims of marines being the worse are bald faced lies but they're keep on going.
Remember how in 6th edition there was a list with 3 Rubric Marine squads and Ahrimam and people talked about how that was proof that Thousand Sons were competitive?
Yeah, me neither.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/01/14 14:42:17
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm going to jump in with some two cents about some things with the disclaimer that I am not a national level tournament player, but I feel some things should be said about some point raised:
Scouts: decent rules on these guys, mixed with being 2ppm cheaper than Tacticals (and the cheapest troop choice for Marines period) make these a reasonable bare bones choice for someone looking to fill their Troops quota without loading up on a bunch of stuff. A squad of 5 with bolters will only run 55 points which is a steal for Marine players, and even if you go up to ten they'll only set you back 110 points base.
Basically you use these guys a lot like Battle Sisters: slightly more fragile versions of Marines whom you can use to hold objectives or support other units via shooting at a medium to close range (basically just inside of Rapid Fire range).
Now they aren't going to be more points efficient than Imperial Guard, or some things in other armies, but they will at least give you some cheaper troops you can use to do things with if you're one of those people avoiding the Imperial Soup approach to list building.
Marines in General:
We can argue points efficiency all day, but honestly I feel that's better suited as a tool to decide to take codex unit a or codex unit b inside of the same codex. Once you start comparing options inside of different armies with all the different toys they have it gets hard to give fair assessments to things.
Bare bones Tactical Marines running bolters can put more wounds on a wide array of units while not taking as many wounds back. I've crunched numbers on this and this is one of the reasons I actually feel that the current points system actually has a fair amount of balance when we exclude all other factors and bonuses. When we start factoring in all the ways an army can buff itself is when the scale of balance basically gives up and runs home crying tears of blood.
What I've come to see as a problem is less the points costs for specific models, or even wargear, but rather all the things armies are being given for free.
The worst offender of these is definitely stratagems. Marines are currently paying 1-2 more command points for a number of stratagems that other armies have, but only have to pay a single point for. Yes, Marines are "tankier" than other armies, but they're still largely single wound models (outside of more elite units like Primaris and Terminator models), and even then they don't match the potential damage out put or wound count of horde armies of the same points level. 130 points can get you 10 points of Tactical Marines, or 32 Guardsmen, or 32 Termagaunts, or 12 Scouts, or.... you get the point. The slight bump from S3 to S4 for a bolter with no AP value is not enough to make up for lower number of shots (even with the 1/6 increase in wounding against most things, or the 1/6 increase in hitting most things compared to a number of models/units) and the slight bump in toughness and save over some units doesn't give the Marines the staying power to really fix the problem either.
Sure cover gives Marines a 2+ save but the combination of how many ways there are to strip cover, and the number of ways there are to reduce a Marine's armour save means that any cover you have needs to basically block line of sight or it's not going to benefit the unit.
I know this sounds odd considering that I starting by saying that Marines aren't that bad, but remember, that's only in a perfect vacuum where we compare the number of wounds traded, not the points lost from said wounds.
And let's not even get into the mess that is Orders versus Chapter Tactics. I'm still trying to work out how Marines, who have hundreds of years of training and combat experience over normal humans, are less tactically flexible than humans, many of which were only fully trained en route to whatever theater of war they're being sent to die in.
Even Guilliman, the tactical genius who penned the original Codex Astartes which was said to have tactics for just about every situation, every foe known to man at that time, and every possible way to cordinate your forces doesn't even escape this problem. Humans who probably haven't even started shaving yet are more capable of adjusting tactics on the fly than a PRIMARCH. What. The. Smegging. Warp.
I'm not saying Marines should have Orders, oh definitely not, but they should have rules under their Chapter Tactics you can adjust to. Say two, maybe three things that are themed around how the chapter handles things. One for facing foes that outnumber them, one for facing big threats (like Primarchs, knights, ect), and one for dealing with MEQ. Something you can have a unit change from one to the next based on what you want it to do that turn (just like you can with Orders only the unit doesn't need an HQ to turn the rule on, they unit just does it).
Basically, the Marines need the tactical flexibility that makes them stand out in the fluff for them to stand out on the table, and they need to be able to do it without paying extra on stratagems that everyone else gets cheaper at the discount store.
Primaris:
Okay, I'm done venting like a warp core threatening to breach and can calmly state my case about Primaris.
Primaris Marines aren't solely to be what we think Marines "should" be like. I mean it's definitely part of it, and it feels that was part of the design goal with their rules and stats, but I think there is another point to be made for them and their limited wargear options.
See, the Primaris are trying to be what we feel an army of elite post-humans should be while also calling back to the Horus Heresy with specialized units that focus around one task (thinning hordes, killing elite units, ect). Horus Heresy armies play more like powered armoured Eldar with units synergizing with each other to accomplish goals. It's a neat nod to how someone like Guilliman would likely have established the program during the days of the Scouring Era before the final form of Space Marines Chapters were likely founded. Basically they're the Legions given a modern, more chapter focused, take.
Tabletop wise though I feel that they basically suffer from the same problems regular Marines do. They are easily outgunned and can be suppressed due to the high number of wounds enemy armies are currently bringing to the table, and while tougher than regular Marines their extra cost for that additional toughness just makes them face the same problem at an increased rate.
Speaking from experience with Sisters: when you can bring more models to the table than the opponent, your chances of winning increase just because they won't be able to kill everything fast enough.
This whole mess for both kinds of Marines is only compounded further by the fact that the anti-horde weapons of old are basically not functioning well enough. They don't scale well to large units (I really feel they should be on a D3 system with small blasts getting an extra die if the unit has ten or more models and the large blasts getting a D3 for every 5 models in the target unit, with both getting at least one die) nor do they points cost appropriately for what they can do on the table. This poor functionality for anti-horde weapons is frankly why things like the Vindicator aren't seeing games nearly as much as they should.
This whole giant post but I feel you neglected to mention important marine benefits like:
Morale. ATSKNF is not what it was, but theres a lot of mathammer around that doesn't take morale into consideration. In general, marines lose fewer models to morale rolls and this is important.
Honestly, I'd consider this better if it weren't for the fact that re-rolls can just as often screw you over with morale and that horde armies are completely getting around morale, you know, the only thing that was built in to balance them. Orks at Ld30, Nids with Synaspe, and Guard with their MSU-style list that ensures casualties are capped at 10 at best all means that these armies are not losing models in the numbers they should.
Basically, this should be a strength of the Marine codex, but it's out performed by horde armies who range from ignoring it to ensuring that they have at least three times the number of individual units you do so you can't force wounds to overflow into their guys.
Weapons. Marines have the largest armory in the game, as well as the most options available to many of their squads, which is big. Sisters don't have access to Plasma, for example. Guard have Plasma but aren't as reliable. Grav Cannons are also excellent weapons, and a Space Marine specialty. You talk about straight bolter marines to make comparissons, but don't acknowledge that it ain't the bolters that are being relied on to do the damage a lot of the time.
Save for grav and slightly fancier bolters Guard have all the toys Marines do, plus several Marines don't, on cheaper bodies and tanks meaning that even if you do kill them they're down a lot smaller chunks of their army than a Marine player is. It also means they can afford greater redunancy (aka "spam") than a Marine player can. I'm not saying these weapons aren't good, but (and I'm just making up an example with fake points because I don't remember how much a plasmagun is, so I just went with 15 points here) a 19 point Guardsman is more expendable than a 27 point Marine (meaning Overcharging is less of a concern) and you can fit more of said Guardsman into a list too.
And since you mentioned Bolters, let's briefly touch on that mess. They basically make up most of the weapons on the table for a Marine army due to being everywhere in the army. The fact that they're just slightly better at wounding than a lasgun (except against T5 where it middles out since they both wound on 5s) but have no built in AP value (at least for the basic ones) makes them rather underwhelming compared to the lore and compared to even just before. I mean, you've even pointed out the problem, Marines AREN'T able to rely on their basic weapons to do things as well as they should. When the most common weapon in your army isn't effective at doing anything there is a definite problem there.
Rerolls. I believe marines have the easiest access to rerolls of any army, and I'm not even talking about Gman. Captains and lieutenants, plus the Chapter Master upgrade, or even Salamanders Tactics if you want to bring army traits into it.
Re-rolls are pretty key, but let's be honest, you pay a lot for what is basically a "re-roll caddy" in this edition. I see people building armies around getting re-rolls more than I do see people building interesting characters for their HQs or trying for unusual combinations. The fact that you're forcing an army to devote a chunk of it's points for something that could have been a standard rule (with full rerolls being the aura) to represent the level of training and consistency of a Marine's combat skill means that even if you're playing different chapters the core of the army will basically never be changed.
Basically, while the HQs look nice, they're hurting the flexibility of the Marines and pushing people to play the same basic armies over, and over and over. Heck, even Black Templars are pushed more towards a MSU shooting army to be effective than running hordes of dudes up a field to show off their chainsword collection to the enemy.
This makes Marine become repetitive, and easy to plan around what to face because everyone is being forced into very similar builds to be effective. And let's be honest, for Marine players, that's a horrible thing.
. . . .
Guillimans rerolls are great and all, but IMO his bonus is more effective when you're shooting weapons at the wrong targets, like Assault Cannons at tanks. If you take the Chapter Master + Lieutenant combo and shoot at the right targets (Meaning where weapons are wounding on a 3+, like Las against vehicles and Plasma/Grav vs. Elites) the difference between Gman and the Lieutenant for wound rolls is less. You also save about 200 points.
My more competetive marine lists are swarms of marines with rerolls and big guns. I'm working my way towards a list with 90ish power armored bodies and I think it'll be pretty solid.
I threw some replies in orange so I wouldn't have to muck with quote tags before I've had my caffeine this morning.
I'm not saying Marines can't win, nor am I saying that they should be the best thing out there. Heck, I don't even play Marines currently (I have a Sisters army I'm not playing, and I've started a Custodes army), but it doesn't change that the poster boys for the game are definitely falling short on a lot of levels. Maybe part of it is the focus on Primaris Marines and the lack of a push for the army as a whole to be looked at more closely, or perhaps the issue is that they were the first codex GW did and the studio hadn't gotten a feel for how to balance the army for the new edition when there weren't other codexes to compare it to yet. Heck, it could be all of those things, I don't even know.
What I do know is that Marines are becoming very one note in list design, aren't able to handle hordes effectively, and are hurting on the table due a lot of things that could have been better.
I want Marines to be good, just like I want every army to be good, but they've been struggling for a while now and without some kind of serious overhaul in the long run I'm not sure how they'll manage to be better than mid-tier at best.
2018/01/14 16:06:32
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
MSU pretty much negates the morale phase issue - just saying.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 16:27:56
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
What about Primaris with two wounds apiece. I know they cost more points but are definitely more robust.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 17:34:21
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Martel732 wrote: Marines just don't punch or take punches like a 13 pt model. They just don't. And then all the complaints stem from this one basic observation.
I think this illustrates a point made earlier (and repeatedly) - you can't just consider one (or even two) factors in cost. If you only think about "taking punches," it ignores all of the other benefits - flexibility in ability to bring heavy weapons in troops choices, access to ObSec, army special rules/synergy, etc. It's easy to make *any* army look bad if you don't consider the whole picture. Imagine what it would
Martel732 wrote: Primaris are closer, but the lack of model range is crippling them right now. The repulsor is really crippling.
Space Marines get a whole new model line and now we have complaints about the lack of model range? (I assume you didn't mean their weapons' range, as it's better than tac marines)
2018/01/14 17:52:39
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
I'm guessing, but I think Martel likely means the lack of available weapons for each specific primaris unit. Not being able to take a heavy or special weapon with intercessors, etc.
2500 pts Raven Guard, painted
2018/01/14 17:57:24
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Flexibility usually involves making the 13 pt model even more expensive. This puts marines firmly into glass cannon range. If tac marines got a rule to choose gear after the match started, that would be true flexibility. Otherwise you are just paying points to guess.
I am considering all rules when i say that marines don't play like 13 pt models. But yes, most of that is durability and offense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/14 18:03:58
2018/01/14 18:07:41
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Porphyrius wrote: I'm guessing, but I think Martel likely means the lack of available weapons for each specific primaris unit. Not being able to take a heavy or special weapon with intercessors, etc.
That I'm fine with, but the lack of option on sergeants and characters is infuriating. Reivers for example would be instantly improved if the sergeant could have even a power sword. (Intercessor sergeant can but a sergeant of dedicated CC unit cannot. Neither kit comes with the bit. GW logic.)
Also, if the Primaris could use normal marine transports or there was a cheaper, more barebones variant of Repulsor, it would make many Primaris units more viable. 300 point tank is just not practical as your only transport option.
Martel732 wrote: Flexibility usually involves making the 13 pt model even more expensive. This puts marines firmly into glass cannon range. If tac marines got a rule to choose gear after the match started, that would be true flexibility. Otherwise you are just paying points to guess.
I am considering all rules when i say that marines don't play like 13 pt models. But yes, most of that is durability and offense.
As a DE player and i see Bloodbrides and cry b.c i would rather have Marines over those 100% the time.
Primark G wrote: MSU pretty much negates the morale phase issue - just saying.
Yet it's a benefit that's incorporated into their point cost that's basically not worth it, just like with DTTFE for the Chaos side.
Combat Squads are still MSU.
So you pay for a full squad for a benefit you aren't going to use because you're planning to split them in half, when you're just better off at minimum size in the first place to get that extra Sergeant model and therefore an extra Combi Weapon.
Still not seeing the issue there?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/01/14 18:37:28
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Martel732 wrote: The repulsor is land raider 2.0 and had all the same problems.
The Repulsor is a grav tank and has the keyword Fly... very hard to lock down in melee... can fallback and still shoot. It has a Repulsor field which makes it even more difficult to charge. The Repulsor also has a lot more dakka than a land raider easily able to destroy or cripple multiple units in one shooting phase - it’s only drawback is the points cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 18:38:04
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 18:51:01
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Martel732 wrote: The repulsor is land raider 2.0 and had all the same problems.
The Repulsor is a grav tank and has the keyword Fly... very hard to lock down in melee... can fallback and still shoot. It has a Repulsor field which makes it even more difficult to charge. The Repulsor also has a lot more dakka than a land raider easily able to destroy or cripple multiple units in one shooting phase - it’s only drawback is the points cost.
The Repulsor is an incredibly expensive single target sitting on a 3+ save, no Invulnerable save, and no FNP. I have yet to see one survive past turn two because they're so easy for even mediocre anti-tank firepower to focus down, and they're so expensive/well-armed/full of Hellblasters or Aggressors that they're almost always priority target #1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 18:51:13
Primark G wrote: MSU pretty much negates the morale phase issue - just saying.
Yet it's a benefit that's incorporated into their point cost that's basically not worth it, just like with DTTFE for the Chaos side.
Combat Squads are still MSU.
So you pay for a full squad for a benefit you aren't going to use because you're planning to split them in half, when you're just better off at minimum size in the first place to get that extra Sergeant model and therefore an extra Combi Weapon.
Martel732 wrote: The repulsor is land raider 2.0 and had all the same problems.
The Repulsor is a grav tank and has the keyword Fly... very hard to lock down in melee... can fallback and still shoot. It has a Repulsor field which makes it even more difficult to charge. The Repulsor also has a lot more dakka than a land raider easily able to destroy or cripple multiple units in one shooting phase - it’s only drawback is the points cost.
Well if the drawback is that it's too expensive why are you defending it by saying it's good?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/01/14 19:10:18
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
I was pointing some of its advantages over the land raider in response to Martel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 19:10:42
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 19:16:33
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
It’s a good transport for Aggressors and Hellblasters plus you can toss in some Primaris characters too. I don’t use it but it’s not as bad as some say.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 19:21:17
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Primark G wrote: It’s a good transport for Aggressors and Hellblasters plus you can toss in some Primaris characters too. I don’t use it but it’s not as bad as some say.
So you don't use it but you know it's good? Right...
The problem is that it tries to be both transport and a battle tank, and doing so becomes too expensive for its durability. All those guns will do jack gak once the tank is dead. And it being the only transport option for the Primaris makes it worse.
I said it’s good, not great. I’d rather run a pair of Redemptors.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/14 20:03:10
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Primark G wrote: I said it’s good, not great. I’d rather run a pair of Redemptors.
Those aren't great either. They have same T and save than regular dreads, and once they start taking damage penalties, they no longer hit anything. That plasma cannon is too random and you cannot really move and overcharge. You however want to move in order to use the fist. The heavy flamer is useless, as usual.
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
2500 pts Raven Guard, painted 
