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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 18:02:48
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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HuskyWarhammer wrote: Xenomancers wrote:I'm not admitting to faulty logic - only that faulty logic wouldn't make me wrong.
Is it logical to you that Ultra marines should be placing in more tournaments than AM? Think carefully.
You're arguing that because a broken clock can be right twice per day, it's not a broken clock. You admit to using faulty logic to back your position up, but then ask people "is it logical?"
"Think carefully" about that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
This seems like it's more moving the goalposts. "Our codex isn't strong, but we have a few strong units" is a hugely different thing than saying the army can't be competitive at a tournament - which the data shows they, at worst, are middle of the road. Hell, you could make that same argument for Tau being weak last edition if you took out Riptides, but I think you'd be laughed out of here if you tried. Then you move the goalposts more and say those marine units are "not even Marine-ish." So all of your special marines should be OP, not just a few units...? You say that the primarch of a legion and razorbacks...are not "Marine-ish." I mean, can we stop the grasping at straws here?
Then we can say 6th/7th edition Tyranids are a competitive codex under your logic.
Also you kinda didn't read the rest did ya? I said the most competitive build isn't Marine-ish and it's still proving to go down hill as more Codices get released. To be THAT middle of the road when we still have half the Codices to be released isn't something to defend. Automatically Appended Next Post: Asmodios wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Morale is a non-factor. Seriously. For the difference in points you can get a Commisar to negate morale if you want. More the point that there is nobody killing squads by morale because you build to avoid it. ATSKNF is a useless rule beyond belief because you take MSU or barely above it in the first place.
1.a. That might be the silliest assertion you have ever made. ATSKNF is "useless" while Commissars "negate morale"? Do you understand how they work? Commissars after the FAQ are literally a crappy ATSKNF.
1.b. We can do the same scenario with a Commissar anyways. By Martels math, 2 marines die for every 6 guardsmen. At 2 marines, the marines still automatically pass morale because their sergeant has Ld. 8. At 6 Guardsman dead, Guardsmen need to roll a 1 to pass, leaving them at a 83% chance of failing. If they fail, even if they roll a 2, the Commissar immediately shoots one, and they still must re-roll, still requiring a 1 not to lose additional models, a 2 gets the same result (minus the additional model that the Commissar shot), and anything other than that results in even more casualties being taken. Once guardsmen take a certain number of casualties, the Commmissar averages more harm than good, and you don't have a choice about it. If we're talking points as the ultimate "value" of the exchange, Guardsmen average a higher loss because of the effects of morale.
If we were serious about helping marine players instead of just whining, we'd be discussing ideas on how to press those advantages. Instead of killing entire squads, spread the love around. Killing 21 guys in three different squads can quickly net you 30 total casualties from the morale effects.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Your second point is under the assumption Marine players are just that bad. You are the one claiming miracles but you can't ever make time to go to a tournament to prove that point we are all just terrible and you discovered the REAL way to run Marines.
This doesn't have any teeth to it. All I did was point out clear areas where the statistics available may not tell the whole story. You can try to insult me for it, but it doesn't defend against any of my assertions.
I do think a lot of new players play marines. I do think that many people that go to tournaments aren't "the best" players (there's no qualifying round or anything), and that yes, because marines are generalists they can be easy to start with but more tricky to squeeze their advantages out of, unlike other armies with very extreme specialists with push-button roles.
1. It isn't silly. Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum for the most part or up to 7-8, because MSU is the way to do things along with avoiding morale as an issue. Remember that 6 Marines is 78 points, and that's 20 infantry models. Morale isn't a factor for one of those squads I can tell you that much.
More the point is that every person builds to avoid morale, but certain armies are just going to ignore it. When you Mathhammer Gaunts, you don't calculate battle shock. They're cheap enough to throw a cheap Synapse creature into the mix.
Or you can buy a Platoon commander and get that relic pistol that avoids morale. Either or.
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
You're not dominating tournaments for a reason. People make time for their hobbies no matter what. You don't have an excuse and you COULD prove us wrong. You won't though, so stop asserting Marine players are at fault.
>we aren’t competitive if you ignore our most competitive build
Its the equivalent of a guard player saying “we aren’t competitive if you don’t take our cheep screening units and LOS ignoring artilary”
This entire thread can be summarized as “if you ignore build x and all tournament results that disprove SM are bottom tier then SM are the worst”
You clearly aren’t open for a real discussion which makes anyone’s attempt at a reply useless
Did you also opt to not read anything after that statement? The strongest is not Marine-ish, and is slowly going down as more Codices are getting released.
Reading comprehension isn't hard ya know.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 18:04:33
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 18:33:26
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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All units with the keyword Imperial get to reroll 1s when in range of Guilliman’s buff aura.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/18 18:39:20
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 18:41:15
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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Primark G wrote:
All units with the keyword Imperial get to reroll 1s when in range of Guilliman’s buff aura.
And?
Guard get this already, and any space marine chapter can get this with a cheap bog standard captain.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 18:43:04
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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You said he didn’t do anything for other Chapters.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 18:51:57
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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He doesn't.
Is your argument that he does because you can pay ~400 points for the same bonus a ~75 point captain provides? So therefore Guilliman has value to say, White Scars? Do you want to be considered credible?
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 18:53:57
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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He's technically correct, but it's an irrelevant technicality.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:00:02
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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This is a competitive thread.
Guilliman provides no value to a competitive white scars list. He provides no value to a competitive Blood Angels list.
Just because he allows you to reroll ones doesn't mean that boost has any value given the context.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:03:04
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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That's why I said it's an irrelevant technicality.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:08:21
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Marmatag wrote:
This is a competitive thread.
Guilliman provides no value to a competitive white scars list. He provides no value to a competitive Blood Angels list.
Just because he allows you to reroll ones doesn't mean that boost has any value given the context.
Well, actually this is in general discussion, which means that this thread isn't about competitive stuff
I think we should ask for this thread to be moved...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:08:43
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Morale is a non-factor. Seriously. For the difference in points you can get a Commisar to negate morale if you want. More the point that there is nobody killing squads by morale because you build to avoid it. ATSKNF is a useless rule beyond belief because you take MSU or barely above it in the first place.
1.a. That might be the silliest assertion you have ever made. ATSKNF is "useless" while Commissars "negate morale"? Do you understand how they work? Commissars after the FAQ are literally a crappy ATSKNF.
1.b. We can do the same scenario with a Commissar anyways. By Martels math, 2 marines die for every 6 guardsmen. At 2 marines, the marines still automatically pass morale because their sergeant has Ld. 8. At 6 Guardsman dead, Guardsmen need to roll a 1 to pass, leaving them at a 83% chance of failing. If they fail, even if they roll a 2, the Commissar immediately shoots one, and they still must re-roll, still requiring a 1 not to lose additional models, a 2 gets the same result (minus the additional model that the Commissar shot), and anything other than that results in even more casualties being taken. Once guardsmen take a certain number of casualties, the Commmissar averages more harm than good, and you don't have a choice about it. If we're talking points as the ultimate "value" of the exchange, Guardsmen average a higher loss because of the effects of morale.
If we were serious about helping marine players instead of just whining, we'd be discussing ideas on how to press those advantages. Instead of killing entire squads, spread the love around. Killing 21 guys in three different squads can quickly net you 30 total casualties from the morale effects.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Your second point is under the assumption Marine players are just that bad. You are the one claiming miracles but you can't ever make time to go to a tournament to prove that point we are all just terrible and you discovered the REAL way to run Marines.
This doesn't have any teeth to it. All I did was point out clear areas where the statistics available may not tell the whole story. You can try to insult me for it, but it doesn't defend against any of my assertions.
I do think a lot of new players play marines. I do think that many people that go to tournaments aren't "the best" players (there's no qualifying round or anything), and that yes, because marines are generalists they can be easy to start with but more tricky to squeeze their advantages out of, unlike other armies with very extreme specialists with push-button roles.
1. It isn't silly. Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum for the most part or up to 7-8, because MSU is the way to do things along with avoiding morale as an issue. Remember that 6 Marines is 78 points, and that's 20 infantry models. Morale isn't a factor for one of those squads I can tell you that much.
More the point is that every person builds to avoid morale, but certain armies are just going to ignore it. When you Mathhammer Gaunts, you don't calculate battle shock. They're cheap enough to throw a cheap Synapse creature into the mix.
Or you can buy a Platoon commander and get that relic pistol that avoids morale. Either or.
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
You're not dominating tournaments for a reason. People make time for their hobbies no matter what. You don't have an excuse and you COULD prove us wrong. You won't though, so stop asserting Marine players are at fault.
1. "Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum" says the guy who says he uses 8-man Sternguard squads. But moves the goal posts and says 7 or 8 (more than "barely above" in your original post) now. If you lose 6 of them you've got a 66% chance to lose another (50% to lose the squad) to morale without ATSKNF, because I assume you're killing the Sergeant before the Grav Cannons. And before you say that I'll spend the effort wiping out the squad, it could have happened in close combat, where I don't have further damage options available to me, or if I was playing Tyranids, who are not much concerned about grav.
The original example given was not Gaunts, but Guard, if you recall. And guard have more morale issues than they did at the start of this edition. Guard players don't simply wave morale issues away. If you wan't to do the math with Gaunts, do the math with Gaunts. 4 pt. Fleshborer Gaunts have a worse save and a worse gun than Guard.
2.a. There's nothing in there that refutes the assertions I put forth. If you come up with anything viable, I'd be interested to hear it.
2.b. Let's take the theoretical example and say I am a tactical genius, and I did go to a tournament, and I did win with my Tactical Squads. You know what some of you guys would say? "Statistical anomaly! Everyone knows Tactical Squads are crap! Obviously the meta in the tournament wasn't very competitive!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:13:58
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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More morale issues = no longer immune. Saying they have "more morale issues" is wholly disingenuous because they now have the same issue as everyone else.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:17:06
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I'm not denying that you can leadership whammy a few guardsmen/turn.
Squads of ten guardsmen start taking catastrophic battleshock when 7/10 are killed. This is irrefutable. 6/10 is less good, since a 5+ is needed to finish the squad.
So we kill 28 pts of models and get 12 more for free. That's still an upper limit of 40 pts removed, and the firepower to remove the initial 7 far exceeds 40 pts. A full tac squad rapid firing costs 130 pts and only removes six guardsmen. That's 130 pts to remove 24. Yes, marines can get fancier guns, but that's increasing the 130 pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:19:58
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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Marmatag wrote:
This is a competitive thread.
Guilliman provides no value to a competitive white scars list. He provides no value to a competitive Blood Angels list.
Just because he allows you to reroll ones doesn't mean that boost has any value given the context.
What if you’re running two different chapters though - it can extend the buff range significantly.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:20:43
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I would never mix chapters in a bobby G list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:23:44
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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That doesn’t make it not viable.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:24:54
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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Primark G wrote: Marmatag wrote: This is a competitive thread. Guilliman provides no value to a competitive white scars list. He provides no value to a competitive Blood Angels list. Just because he allows you to reroll ones doesn't mean that boost has any value given the context. What if you’re running two different chapters though - it can extend the buff range significantly. So you could bring Guilliman, or you could just have 2 captains for less than half the cost, one in each detachment, while simultaneously filling 2 mandatory HQ slots. There is no argument for Guilliman. And, if you have two detachment, there are characters that can grant you full rerolls and other things. For instance, Dark Angels would be much better off with Azrael for the obvious reasons. Grey Knights would be better off with Draigo. Etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 19:25:38
Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:25:05
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Why would you mix them?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:25:55
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Then you lack imagination. I can see plenty of reason to mix chapters in a Bobby G list. Say I am taking some mobile element that would benefit from a different CT, and likely won't be near RG. Why would I make them Ultra marines? For example maybe I want some plasma inceptors to deepstrike in. Why keep them as UM? They would be better as Dark Angels to use the DA specific strat.
Or maybe I am taking Reivers to deepstrike assault. They would be better as Blood Angels.
I don't think you want to spend a ton on other chapters but for small detachments with a purpose it totally makes sense and is an advantage. If all you can think of with RG is full blob gunline it is no surprise to me that you find SM to be terrible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:28:39
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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No, I play all that other stuff because I'm BA and it basically is all overcosted. I'm assuming Bobby G shows up in tournaments because people are just making parking lots and brute forcing the problem. Because trying to move and finesse and make matchups fails with models as expensive as marines.
Sure, bring plasma inceptors, reivers, etc. Won't help vs the power lists because none of those units are efficient enough to matter.
I can think of lots of things, but its all bad because marines cost so many points, and opponents just ignore the schemes and go "LOL DIE ASTARTES" in their shooting phase. And it works, because marines are glass cannons in 8th.
I don't even respect other marine lists when playing marines. It's a slap fight of inefficiency. I can't hurt him, he can't hurt me.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/18 19:31:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:31:10
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Marmatag wrote:More morale issues = no longer immune. Saying they have "more morale issues" is wholly disingenuous because they now have the same issue as everyone else.
Well, no. As already noted some armies still can ignore morale, or mitigate it's effects. Marines with their higher Ld, lower minimum model count and ATSKNF have less morale issues. Imo Guard are on the poor end of the morale stick now because they start off at low Ld.,naturally lose more models at a time and Commissars can easily do more harm than good.
Either way if you're going to compare units you should be taking it into account (which is how this all got started).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:32:13
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Insectum7 wrote: Marmatag wrote:More morale issues = no longer immune. Saying they have "more morale issues" is wholly disingenuous because they now have the same issue as everyone else.
Well, no. As already noted some armies still can ignore morale, or mitigate it's effects. Marines with their higher Ld, lower minimum model count and ATSKNF have less morale issues. Imo Guard are on the poor end of the morale stick now because they start off at low Ld.,naturally lose more models at a time and Commissars can easily do more harm than good.
Either way if you're going to compare units you should be taking it into account (which is how this all got started).
But the models they lose don't cost anything and have already done their job after your opponent's movement phase. You don't care what happens after that. You are paying 40 pts, and only 40 pts, to let 1200 pts get to shoot again.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 19:32:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:37:07
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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It seems like every competitive discussion ultimately boils down to two groups at odds: Those who understand and have observed the requirement of screening units, and those who have not.
If you haven't ever needed screening units, or seen uberalpha lists that will face you turn 1, you won't see the value in a 40 point unit that prevents that, because, as far as you're concerned, it doesn't exist.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:37:46
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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But it does mean that this sort of thing:
Martel732 wrote:Evidence:
It takes 9 BS 3+ boltgun shots to remove a space marine
It take 11 BS 3+ boltgun shots to remove the same points value of guardsmen.
Is not the entire picture.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:38:06
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Guardsmen are a 4 ppm unit that turns off my entire codex, basically without firing a shot. That's true power. The actual IG units doing the killing are functionally immortal unless I shoot them, and I'll lose that race, too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote:
But it does mean that this sort of thing:
Martel732 wrote:Evidence:
It takes 9 BS 3+ boltgun shots to remove a space marine
It take 11 BS 3+ boltgun shots to remove the same points value of guardsmen.
Is not the entire picture.
No, these numbers are just salt in the wound.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/18 19:39:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:39:20
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Martel732 wrote:No, I play all that other stuff because I'm BA and it basically is all overcosted. I'm assuming Bobby G shows up in tournaments because people are just making parking lots and brute forcing the problem. Because trying to move and finesse and make matchups fails with models as expensive as marines.
Sure, bring plasma inceptors, reivers, etc. Won't help vs the power lists because none of those units are efficient enough to matter.
I can think of lots of things, but its all bad because marines cost so many points, and opponents just ignore the schemes and go " LOL DIE ASTARTES" in their shooting phase. And it works, because marines are glass cannons in 8th.
I don't even respect other marine lists when playing marines. It's a slap fight of inefficiency. I can't hurt him, he can't hurt me.
Again though you are pigeonholing yourself into one faction, the efficiency of certain units changes based on the chapter. I'm not saying it is any kind of auto-win or easy fight, but I do think a lot of people use Bobby G because it is an easy way to win games against less skilled opponents, but it often isn't winning against top lists. I agree marines are often glass cannons, but going straight gunline doesn't change that, it just means you lose to better gunline armies because you are playing their game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:40:20
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Clousseau
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Bobby G asscannon lists are done with; expect to see Fire Raptor Bobby G lists. I promise this will be placing soon enough.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:42:53
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Breng77 wrote:Martel732 wrote:No, I play all that other stuff because I'm BA and it basically is all overcosted. I'm assuming Bobby G shows up in tournaments because people are just making parking lots and brute forcing the problem. Because trying to move and finesse and make matchups fails with models as expensive as marines.
Sure, bring plasma inceptors, reivers, etc. Won't help vs the power lists because none of those units are efficient enough to matter.
I can think of lots of things, but its all bad because marines cost so many points, and opponents just ignore the schemes and go " LOL DIE ASTARTES" in their shooting phase. And it works, because marines are glass cannons in 8th.
I don't even respect other marine lists when playing marines. It's a slap fight of inefficiency. I can't hurt him, he can't hurt me.
Again though you are pigeonholing yourself into one faction, the efficiency of certain units changes based on the chapter. I'm not saying it is any kind of auto-win or easy fight, but I do think a lot of people use Bobby G because it is an easy way to win games against less skilled opponents, but it often isn't winning against top lists. I agree marines are often glass cannons, but going straight gunline doesn't change that, it just means you lose to better gunline armies because you are playing their game.
As I said, I've beaten Bobby G about 50% of the time with frickin BA using captains and lieutenants as my characters most of the time. Once you nuke away most of his bubble, he has to hoof it around to other units, and the whole list suffers at maelstrom.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:44:40
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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I like to run a patrol detachment of BT for the five man las/plas Crusader squads.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:47:52
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I'm not sure a lone plasma gun is worthwhile. Plasma is better massed up so you can effectively buff with a captain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/18 19:51:05
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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It adds up when you have several squads plus the rerolls 1s means you can always super charge it too.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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