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2018/01/18 19:52:48
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Martel732 wrote: No, I play all that other stuff because I'm BA and it basically is all overcosted. I'm assuming Bobby G shows up in tournaments because people are just making parking lots and brute forcing the problem. Because trying to move and finesse and make matchups fails with models as expensive as marines.
Sure, bring plasma inceptors, reivers, etc. Won't help vs the power lists because none of those units are efficient enough to matter.
I can think of lots of things, but its all bad because marines cost so many points, and opponents just ignore the schemes and go "LOL DIE ASTARTES" in their shooting phase. And it works, because marines are glass cannons in 8th.
I don't even respect other marine lists when playing marines. It's a slap fight of inefficiency. I can't hurt him, he can't hurt me.
Again though you are pigeonholing yourself into one faction, the efficiency of certain units changes based on the chapter. I'm not saying it is any kind of auto-win or easy fight, but I do think a lot of people use Bobby G because it is an easy way to win games against less skilled opponents, but it often isn't winning against top lists. I agree marines are often glass cannons, but going straight gunline doesn't change that, it just means you lose to better gunline armies because you are playing their game.
As I said, I've beaten Bobby G about 50% of the time with frickin BA using captains and lieutenants as my characters most of the time. Once you nuke away most of his bubble, he has to hoof it around to other units, and the whole list suffers at maelstrom.
Exactly, which is why if I used him (I don't like spending that much on a single unit), I would only use him to buff my firebase and then bring elements in other detachments that don't rely on him, but on lesser characters and other things to buff them.
2018/01/18 19:52:50
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Yeah, I usually don't take "several" squads of tac-equivalents. Usually, I've got two tacs, one intercessor, three scouts. Or something like that. I try to keep my tacs out of plasma gun range because there are so many weapons that crumple them at 24".
Martel732 wrote: No, I play all that other stuff because I'm BA and it basically is all overcosted. I'm assuming Bobby G shows up in tournaments because people are just making parking lots and brute forcing the problem. Because trying to move and finesse and make matchups fails with models as expensive as marines.
Sure, bring plasma inceptors, reivers, etc. Won't help vs the power lists because none of those units are efficient enough to matter.
I can think of lots of things, but its all bad because marines cost so many points, and opponents just ignore the schemes and go "LOL DIE ASTARTES" in their shooting phase. And it works, because marines are glass cannons in 8th.
I don't even respect other marine lists when playing marines. It's a slap fight of inefficiency. I can't hurt him, he can't hurt me.
Again though you are pigeonholing yourself into one faction, the efficiency of certain units changes based on the chapter. I'm not saying it is any kind of auto-win or easy fight, but I do think a lot of people use Bobby G because it is an easy way to win games against less skilled opponents, but it often isn't winning against top lists. I agree marines are often glass cannons, but going straight gunline doesn't change that, it just means you lose to better gunline armies because you are playing their game.
As I said, I've beaten Bobby G about 50% of the time with frickin BA using captains and lieutenants as my characters most of the time. Once you nuke away most of his bubble, he has to hoof it around to other units, and the whole list suffers at maelstrom.
Exactly, which is why if I used him (I don't like spending that much on a single unit), I would only use him to buff my firebase and then bring elements in other detachments that don't rely on him, but on lesser characters and other things to buff them.
That's so many points in characters. Yikes. I'm assuming this isn't happening, but maybe I'm done. I hate paying for ANY marine HQ at this point. Seems like its always been like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 19:53:48
2018/01/18 20:03:57
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
I mean unless you are only taking 1 detachment, you are buying those characters anyway. Given I'm not using RG I am spending less on characters than I typically do on him. But if you do RG in an Aux LOW detachment, then a vanguard/heavy/FA detachment of UM for your firebase, then a battalion of some other chapter (it doesn't really matter what chapter your scouts come from). You are taking RG + 3 characters, so unless all you ever ran was RG + battalion you end up fine. Also if you are basing your other chapter off a stratagem (not BA or DA) not the chapter tactic, you can always take them as a slot in a mixed detachment with Celestine, and guard. SO you could take say Raven Guard Aggressors to infiltrate (you get stratagems from the Marine detachment) for example and not take any more marine chapters.
2018/01/18 20:06:31
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Xenomancers wrote: I'm not admitting to faulty logic - only that faulty logic wouldn't make me wrong.
Is it logical to you that Ultra marines should be placing in more tournaments than AM? Think carefully.
You're arguing that because a broken clock can be right twice per day, it's not a broken clock. You admit to using faulty logic to back your position up, but then ask people "is it logical?"
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
This seems like it's more moving the goalposts. "Our codex isn't strong, but we have a few strong units" is a hugely different thing than saying the army can't be competitive at a tournament - which the data shows they, at worst, are middle of the road. Hell, you could make that same argument for Tau being weak last edition if you took out Riptides, but I think you'd be laughed out of here if you tried. Then you move the goalposts more and say those marine units are "not even Marine-ish." So all of your special marines should be OP, not just a few units...? You say that the primarch of a legion and razorbacks...are not "Marine-ish." I mean, can we stop the grasping at straws here?
Then we can say 6th/7th edition Tyranids are a competitive codex under your logic.
Also you kinda didn't read the rest did ya? I said the most competitive build isn't Marine-ish and it's still proving to go down hill as more Codices get released. To be THAT middle of the road when we still have half the Codices to be released isn't something to defend.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Morale is a non-factor. Seriously. For the difference in points you can get a Commisar to negate morale if you want. More the point that there is nobody killing squads by morale because you build to avoid it. ATSKNF is a useless rule beyond belief because you take MSU or barely above it in the first place.
1.a. That might be the silliest assertion you have ever made. ATSKNF is "useless" while Commissars "negate morale"? Do you understand how they work? Commissars after the FAQ are literally a crappy ATSKNF.
1.b. We can do the same scenario with a Commissar anyways. By Martels math, 2 marines die for every 6 guardsmen. At 2 marines, the marines still automatically pass morale because their sergeant has Ld. 8. At 6 Guardsman dead, Guardsmen need to roll a 1 to pass, leaving them at a 83% chance of failing. If they fail, even if they roll a 2, the Commissar immediately shoots one, and they still must re-roll, still requiring a 1 not to lose additional models, a 2 gets the same result (minus the additional model that the Commissar shot), and anything other than that results in even more casualties being taken. Once guardsmen take a certain number of casualties, the Commmissar averages more harm than good, and you don't have a choice about it. If we're talking points as the ultimate "value" of the exchange, Guardsmen average a higher loss because of the effects of morale.
If we were serious about helping marine players instead of just whining, we'd be discussing ideas on how to press those advantages. Instead of killing entire squads, spread the love around. Killing 21 guys in three different squads can quickly net you 30 total casualties from the morale effects.
2. Your second point is under the assumption Marine players are just that bad. You are the one claiming miracles but you can't ever make time to go to a tournament to prove that point we are all just terrible and you discovered the REAL way to run Marines.
This doesn't have any teeth to it. All I did was point out clear areas where the statistics available may not tell the whole story. You can try to insult me for it, but it doesn't defend against any of my assertions.
I do think a lot of new players play marines. I do think that many people that go to tournaments aren't "the best" players (there's no qualifying round or anything), and that yes, because marines are generalists they can be easy to start with but more tricky to squeeze their advantages out of, unlike other armies with very extreme specialists with push-button roles.
1. It isn't silly. Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum for the most part or up to 7-8, because MSU is the way to do things along with avoiding morale as an issue. Remember that 6 Marines is 78 points, and that's 20 infantry models. Morale isn't a factor for one of those squads I can tell you that much.
More the point is that every person builds to avoid morale, but certain armies are just going to ignore it. When you Mathhammer Gaunts, you don't calculate battle shock. They're cheap enough to throw a cheap Synapse creature into the mix.
Or you can buy a Platoon commander and get that relic pistol that avoids morale. Either or.
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
You're not dominating tournaments for a reason. People make time for their hobbies no matter what. You don't have an excuse and you COULD prove us wrong. You won't though, so stop asserting Marine players are at fault.
>we aren’t competitive if you ignore our most competitive build
Its the equivalent of a guard player saying “we aren’t competitive if you don’t take our cheep screening units and LOS ignoring artilary”
This entire thread can be summarized as “if you ignore build x and all tournament results that disprove SM are bottom tier then SM are the worst”
You clearly aren’t open for a real discussion which makes anyone’s attempt at a reply useless
Did you also opt to not read anything after that statement? The strongest is not Marine-ish, and is slowly going down as more Codices are getting released.
Reading comprehension isn't hard ya know.
So non marinish marine units are the strongest and codexes that don’t exist yet are going to make you bottom tier? No wonder why this thread is going nowhere
2018/01/18 20:17:44
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Based on the love other codices have gotten, I would expect Drukhari, Space Furries, Tau, and GSC to all be significantly better than marines. Sisters already are better.
2018/01/18 20:26:19
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Martel732 wrote: I guess that's true. I suppose it's a tradeoff of redundancy for your gunline vs doing other stuff.
Yes to some extent, if all you were doing was going full gunline, if you were taking any mobile elements you already gave up some redundancy in favor of mobility.
2018/01/18 20:31:04
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Another question: what can marines field that messes with their opponent psychologically? What do marines have that is legit scary? Very little. My units are getting very little respect because marine units are easily solved on the battlefield.
2018/01/18 20:39:46
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
For me it has been plasma inceptors with WOTDA they really alter how my opponents deploy. Then I have a number of units that don't get respect at first that do in later games because of what they do.
2018/01/18 20:42:41
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Templars Scouts are good because you can pop the strategem to deny on 4+ for 1 CP.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/18 20:43:37
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Against probably 50-60% of armies I've seen on the table it is. It isn't if they don't have any psykers, or if they're running some kind of smite-spam, but the ability to shut off Warptime, Guide, or other large fancy powers that can't be re-attempted on a 4+ is pretty useful.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/18 20:52:39
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
I guess we have very different bars of what "amazing" is. If it automatically shut it the power down, which is probably what it should be for a CP, then it would be good. Having to roll dice ruins it, imo.
Of course, I don't use marine psykers because I think they suck out loud. I get by with zero denies of any kind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 20:53:47
2018/01/18 20:59:35
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Templars Scouts are good because you can pop the strategem to deny on 4+ for 1 CP.
it is ok, the issue is I don't really want Templars anything else at the moment but if you had units you wanted to deepstrike and charge they would be a decent choice. I go with white scars because I find using their Born in the saddle stratagem, along with using speed of the raven from dark angels is quite strong as it gives you 2 units that shoot and charge turn 1, makes clearing screens pretty easy. That clears space for my deepstrikers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 21:02:35
2018/01/18 21:05:54
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
White Scars are definitely still viable. I use Templars mainly for the gun line.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/18 21:18:06
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Xenomancers wrote: I'm not admitting to faulty logic - only that faulty logic wouldn't make me wrong.
Is it logical to you that Ultra marines should be placing in more tournaments than AM? Think carefully.
You're arguing that because a broken clock can be right twice per day, it's not a broken clock. You admit to using faulty logic to back your position up, but then ask people "is it logical?"
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
This seems like it's more moving the goalposts. "Our codex isn't strong, but we have a few strong units" is a hugely different thing than saying the army can't be competitive at a tournament - which the data shows they, at worst, are middle of the road. Hell, you could make that same argument for Tau being weak last edition if you took out Riptides, but I think you'd be laughed out of here if you tried. Then you move the goalposts more and say those marine units are "not even Marine-ish." So all of your special marines should be OP, not just a few units...? You say that the primarch of a legion and razorbacks...are not "Marine-ish." I mean, can we stop the grasping at straws here?
Then we can say 6th/7th edition Tyranids are a competitive codex under your logic.
Also you kinda didn't read the rest did ya? I said the most competitive build isn't Marine-ish and it's still proving to go down hill as more Codices get released. To be THAT middle of the road when we still have half the Codices to be released isn't something to defend.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Morale is a non-factor. Seriously. For the difference in points you can get a Commisar to negate morale if you want. More the point that there is nobody killing squads by morale because you build to avoid it. ATSKNF is a useless rule beyond belief because you take MSU or barely above it in the first place.
1.a. That might be the silliest assertion you have ever made. ATSKNF is "useless" while Commissars "negate morale"? Do you understand how they work? Commissars after the FAQ are literally a crappy ATSKNF.
1.b. We can do the same scenario with a Commissar anyways. By Martels math, 2 marines die for every 6 guardsmen. At 2 marines, the marines still automatically pass morale because their sergeant has Ld. 8. At 6 Guardsman dead, Guardsmen need to roll a 1 to pass, leaving them at a 83% chance of failing. If they fail, even if they roll a 2, the Commissar immediately shoots one, and they still must re-roll, still requiring a 1 not to lose additional models, a 2 gets the same result (minus the additional model that the Commissar shot), and anything other than that results in even more casualties being taken. Once guardsmen take a certain number of casualties, the Commmissar averages more harm than good, and you don't have a choice about it. If we're talking points as the ultimate "value" of the exchange, Guardsmen average a higher loss because of the effects of morale.
If we were serious about helping marine players instead of just whining, we'd be discussing ideas on how to press those advantages. Instead of killing entire squads, spread the love around. Killing 21 guys in three different squads can quickly net you 30 total casualties from the morale effects.
2. Your second point is under the assumption Marine players are just that bad. You are the one claiming miracles but you can't ever make time to go to a tournament to prove that point we are all just terrible and you discovered the REAL way to run Marines.
This doesn't have any teeth to it. All I did was point out clear areas where the statistics available may not tell the whole story. You can try to insult me for it, but it doesn't defend against any of my assertions.
I do think a lot of new players play marines. I do think that many people that go to tournaments aren't "the best" players (there's no qualifying round or anything), and that yes, because marines are generalists they can be easy to start with but more tricky to squeeze their advantages out of, unlike other armies with very extreme specialists with push-button roles.
1. It isn't silly. Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum for the most part or up to 7-8, because MSU is the way to do things along with avoiding morale as an issue. Remember that 6 Marines is 78 points, and that's 20 infantry models. Morale isn't a factor for one of those squads I can tell you that much.
More the point is that every person builds to avoid morale, but certain armies are just going to ignore it. When you Mathhammer Gaunts, you don't calculate battle shock. They're cheap enough to throw a cheap Synapse creature into the mix.
Or you can buy a Platoon commander and get that relic pistol that avoids morale. Either or.
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
You're not dominating tournaments for a reason. People make time for their hobbies no matter what. You don't have an excuse and you COULD prove us wrong. You won't though, so stop asserting Marine players are at fault.
>we aren’t competitive if you ignore our most competitive build
Its the equivalent of a guard player saying “we aren’t competitive if you don’t take our cheep screening units and LOS ignoring artilary”
This entire thread can be summarized as “if you ignore build x and all tournament results that disprove SM are bottom tier then SM are the worst”
You clearly aren’t open for a real discussion which makes anyone’s attempt at a reply useless
Did you also opt to not read anything after that statement? The strongest is not Marine-ish, and is slowly going down as more Codices are getting released.
Reading comprehension isn't hard ya know.
So non marinish marine units are the strongest and codexes that don’t exist yet are going to make you bottom tier? No wonder why this thread is going nowhere
It really isn't hard to grasp. I'll break it down in easy-to-understand pieces.
1. Most Marine units aren't good.
2. The best units aren't actually Marines, really.
3. The best units being used have fallen prey to each newly released codex outside Grey Knights and AdMech.
4. Based off of those statistics, this is likely to continue unless EVERY codex is going to be garbage. The Daemon one is looking pretty good, though I can't say how good the Custodes one is going to be as we really haven't seen any leaks.
It REALLY isn't unreasonable to say there's some super bad balances going on.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/01/18 21:47:45
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/18 22:19:24
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Xenomancers wrote: I'm not admitting to faulty logic - only that faulty logic wouldn't make me wrong.
Is it logical to you that Ultra marines should be placing in more tournaments than AM? Think carefully.
You're arguing that because a broken clock can be right twice per day, it's not a broken clock. You admit to using faulty logic to back your position up, but then ask people "is it logical?"
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
This seems like it's more moving the goalposts. "Our codex isn't strong, but we have a few strong units" is a hugely different thing than saying the army can't be competitive at a tournament - which the data shows they, at worst, are middle of the road. Hell, you could make that same argument for Tau being weak last edition if you took out Riptides, but I think you'd be laughed out of here if you tried. Then you move the goalposts more and say those marine units are "not even Marine-ish." So all of your special marines should be OP, not just a few units...? You say that the primarch of a legion and razorbacks...are not "Marine-ish." I mean, can we stop the grasping at straws here?
Then we can say 6th/7th edition Tyranids are a competitive codex under your logic.
Also you kinda didn't read the rest did ya? I said the most competitive build isn't Marine-ish and it's still proving to go down hill as more Codices get released. To be THAT middle of the road when we still have half the Codices to be released isn't something to defend.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Morale is a non-factor. Seriously. For the difference in points you can get a Commisar to negate morale if you want. More the point that there is nobody killing squads by morale because you build to avoid it. ATSKNF is a useless rule beyond belief because you take MSU or barely above it in the first place.
1.a. That might be the silliest assertion you have ever made. ATSKNF is "useless" while Commissars "negate morale"? Do you understand how they work? Commissars after the FAQ are literally a crappy ATSKNF.
1.b. We can do the same scenario with a Commissar anyways. By Martels math, 2 marines die for every 6 guardsmen. At 2 marines, the marines still automatically pass morale because their sergeant has Ld. 8. At 6 Guardsman dead, Guardsmen need to roll a 1 to pass, leaving them at a 83% chance of failing. If they fail, even if they roll a 2, the Commissar immediately shoots one, and they still must re-roll, still requiring a 1 not to lose additional models, a 2 gets the same result (minus the additional model that the Commissar shot), and anything other than that results in even more casualties being taken. Once guardsmen take a certain number of casualties, the Commmissar averages more harm than good, and you don't have a choice about it. If we're talking points as the ultimate "value" of the exchange, Guardsmen average a higher loss because of the effects of morale.
If we were serious about helping marine players instead of just whining, we'd be discussing ideas on how to press those advantages. Instead of killing entire squads, spread the love around. Killing 21 guys in three different squads can quickly net you 30 total casualties from the morale effects.
2. Your second point is under the assumption Marine players are just that bad. You are the one claiming miracles but you can't ever make time to go to a tournament to prove that point we are all just terrible and you discovered the REAL way to run Marines.
This doesn't have any teeth to it. All I did was point out clear areas where the statistics available may not tell the whole story. You can try to insult me for it, but it doesn't defend against any of my assertions.
I do think a lot of new players play marines. I do think that many people that go to tournaments aren't "the best" players (there's no qualifying round or anything), and that yes, because marines are generalists they can be easy to start with but more tricky to squeeze their advantages out of, unlike other armies with very extreme specialists with push-button roles.
1. It isn't silly. Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum for the most part or up to 7-8, because MSU is the way to do things along with avoiding morale as an issue. Remember that 6 Marines is 78 points, and that's 20 infantry models. Morale isn't a factor for one of those squads I can tell you that much.
More the point is that every person builds to avoid morale, but certain armies are just going to ignore it. When you Mathhammer Gaunts, you don't calculate battle shock. They're cheap enough to throw a cheap Synapse creature into the mix.
Or you can buy a Platoon commander and get that relic pistol that avoids morale. Either or.
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
You're not dominating tournaments for a reason. People make time for their hobbies no matter what. You don't have an excuse and you COULD prove us wrong. You won't though, so stop asserting Marine players are at fault.
>we aren’t competitive if you ignore our most competitive build
Its the equivalent of a guard player saying “we aren’t competitive if you don’t take our cheep screening units and LOS ignoring artilary”
This entire thread can be summarized as “if you ignore build x and all tournament results that disprove SM are bottom tier then SM are the worst”
You clearly aren’t open for a real discussion which makes anyone’s attempt at a reply useless
Did you also opt to not read anything after that statement? The strongest is not Marine-ish, and is slowly going down as more Codices are getting released.
Reading comprehension isn't hard ya know.
So non marinish marine units are the strongest and codexes that don’t exist yet are going to make you bottom tier? No wonder why this thread is going nowhere
It really isn't hard to grasp. I'll break it down in easy-to-understand pieces.
1. Most Marine units aren't good.
2. The best units aren't actually Marines, really.
3. The best units being used have fallen prey to each newly released codex outside Grey Knights and AdMech.
4. Based off of those statistics, this is likely to continue unless EVERY codex is going to be garbage. The Daemon one is looking pretty good, though I can't say how good the Custodes one is going to be as we really haven't seen any leaks.
It REALLY isn't unreasonable to say there's some super bad balances going on.
It’s really easy to see how worked up you are about a bunch of “what if’s”
How about you re make the thread once
1. Everyone gets a codex and they are all better then mariens
2. Once the units you consider non marine mariens are removed from the marine codex
3. When GW does no point changes along the way to poin 1 and 2 like they have already done multiple times this edition
2018/01/18 22:34:22
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
-A primarch isn't actually a marine unit. Nor are any of their transports. -All new codices are automatically more powerful than SM, just like AdMech and Grey Knights. -When asking about competitive builds, the entire codex must be strong for that faction to be viable. -Slayer-fan's real only defense is accusing people of not reading, when that's exactly what he/she is doing. Projection, much?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 22:56:00
2018/01/18 23:35:11
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Martel732 wrote: If gw recosts marines again then everything changes.
If I listened to you I’d play IG... but I’ll never do that.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/19 00:16:50
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Primark G wrote: White Scars are definitely still viable. I use Templars mainly for the gun line.
My 1500 put list averages about 60 dead guardsman turn 1. With about 40 guaranteed and that assumes I have other things to
Shoot with some of my guns. So unless my opponent has 100 chaff all stacked to one side. Turn 2 I am assaulting/shooting stuff that matters.
2018/01/19 00:22:26
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Morale is a non-factor. Seriously. For the difference in points you can get a Commisar to negate morale if you want. More the point that there is nobody killing squads by morale because you build to avoid it. ATSKNF is a useless rule beyond belief because you take MSU or barely above it in the first place.
1.a. That might be the silliest assertion you have ever made. ATSKNF is "useless" while Commissars "negate morale"? Do you understand how they work? Commissars after the FAQ are literally a crappy ATSKNF.
1.b. We can do the same scenario with a Commissar anyways. By Martels math, 2 marines die for every 6 guardsmen. At 2 marines, the marines still automatically pass morale because their sergeant has Ld. 8. At 6 Guardsman dead, Guardsmen need to roll a 1 to pass, leaving them at a 83% chance of failing. If they fail, even if they roll a 2, the Commissar immediately shoots one, and they still must re-roll, still requiring a 1 not to lose additional models, a 2 gets the same result (minus the additional model that the Commissar shot), and anything other than that results in even more casualties being taken. Once guardsmen take a certain number of casualties, the Commmissar averages more harm than good, and you don't have a choice about it. If we're talking points as the ultimate "value" of the exchange, Guardsmen average a higher loss because of the effects of morale.
If we were serious about helping marine players instead of just whining, we'd be discussing ideas on how to press those advantages. Instead of killing entire squads, spread the love around. Killing 21 guys in three different squads can quickly net you 30 total casualties from the morale effects.
2. Your second point is under the assumption Marine players are just that bad. You are the one claiming miracles but you can't ever make time to go to a tournament to prove that point we are all just terrible and you discovered the REAL way to run Marines.
This doesn't have any teeth to it. All I did was point out clear areas where the statistics available may not tell the whole story. You can try to insult me for it, but it doesn't defend against any of my assertions.
I do think a lot of new players play marines. I do think that many people that go to tournaments aren't "the best" players (there's no qualifying round or anything), and that yes, because marines are generalists they can be easy to start with but more tricky to squeeze their advantages out of, unlike other armies with very extreme specialists with push-button roles.
1. It isn't silly. Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum for the most part or up to 7-8, because MSU is the way to do things along with avoiding morale as an issue. Remember that 6 Marines is 78 points, and that's 20 infantry models. Morale isn't a factor for one of those squads I can tell you that much.
More the point is that every person builds to avoid morale, but certain armies are just going to ignore it. When you Mathhammer Gaunts, you don't calculate battle shock. They're cheap enough to throw a cheap Synapse creature into the mix.
Or you can buy a Platoon commander and get that relic pistol that avoids morale. Either or.
2. Once again, you're blaming the Marine players rather than the codex. Unless you're the Tactical Genius we've all been waiting for, we have data that PROVES it is a weak codex outside Roboute + Razorbacks and/or Stormravens. That's not even Marine-ish either, AND as more Codices get released they've slowly gone downhill. Yeah they're not as bad as Grey Knights and AdMech, but that's not part of the discussion.
You're not dominating tournaments for a reason. People make time for their hobbies no matter what. You don't have an excuse and you COULD prove us wrong. You won't though, so stop asserting Marine players are at fault.
1. "Nobody is taking Marine squads above minimum" says the guy who says he uses 8-man Sternguard squads. But moves the goal posts and says 7 or 8 (more than "barely above" in your original post) now. If you lose 6 of them you've got a 66% chance to lose another (50% to lose the squad) to morale without ATSKNF, because I assume you're killing the Sergeant before the Grav Cannons. And before you say that I'll spend the effort wiping out the squad, it could have happened in close combat, where I don't have further damage options available to me, or if I was playing Tyranids, who are not much concerned about grav.
The original example given was not Gaunts, but Guard, if you recall. And guard have more morale issues than they did at the start of this edition. Guard players don't simply wave morale issues away. If you wan't to do the math with Gaunts, do the math with Gaunts. 4 pt. Fleshborer Gaunts have a worse save and a worse gun than Guard.
2.a. There's nothing in there that refutes the assertions I put forth. If you come up with anything viable, I'd be interested to hear it.
2.b. Let's take the theoretical example and say I am a tactical genius, and I did go to a tournament, and I did win with my Tactical Squads. You know what some of you guys would say? "Statistical anomaly! Everyone knows Tactical Squads are crap! Obviously the meta in the tournament wasn't very competitive!"
1. I already know I'd be better off with 7 dudes, actually. That doesn't mean it's advisable even with a LD8-9 squad.
You're also very non-specific on what you mean by not having options in melee, which doesn't really make sense when you're talking about Sternguard that I'm using. They're not supposed to charge, so...
Also there's plenty of Tyranid targets to be afraid of Grav. They're not as point efficient as Heavy Bolters vs the chaff of course but it's still 4 shots.
2. The burden of proof is honestly on you for this. If it's really the Marine players that are at fault, YOU are the one that needs to show they're either inexperienced or NEVER deploying properly or just making overall bad decisions. And it would have to be a huge majority doing this too.
Also everyone would say the same thing. Consistency is a thing ya know? Even though I'm literally ignored every time I bring up that tournament with the Rubric Marine list of course, the point stands. Think of it like a science experiment: if you can do it once, you SHOULD be able to do it again. Random numbers can only betray you so many times before you hit the average...
-A primarch isn't actually a marine unit. Nor are any of their transports.
-All new codices are automatically more powerful than SM, just like AdMech and Grey Knights.
-When asking about competitive builds, the entire codex must be strong for that faction to be viable.
-Slayer-fan's real only defense is accusing people of not reading, when that's exactly what he/she is doing. Projection, much?
1. No, Rowboat is not just a Marine unit.
2. They have been so far.
3. Around more than 60%. I bring up 6th edition Tyranids again as my argument and you have avoided the point as per usual. Unless you really do think 6th/7th edition Tyranids were in fact a competitive codex, in which case all hope is lost for you to understand even the simplest point.
4. You WEREN'T reading.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/19 00:30:14
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/01/19 00:46:52
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
-A primarch isn't actually a marine unit. Nor are any of their transports. -All new codices are automatically more powerful than SM, just like AdMech and Grey Knights. -When asking about competitive builds, the entire codex must be strong for that faction to be viable. -Slayer-fan's real only defense is accusing people of not reading, when that's exactly what he/she is doing. Projection, much?
1. No, Rowboat is not just a Marine unit. 2. They have been so far. 3. Around more than 60%. I bring up 6th edition Tyranids again as my argument and you have avoided the point as per usual. Unless you really do think 6th/7th edition Tyranids were in fact a competitive codex, in which case all hope is lost for you to understand even the simplest point. 4. You WEREN'T reading.
I genuinely can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you are really just missing the point? I'm hoping it's the latter, so I'll explain.
1 - That was sarcasm. You missed it. You also ignored the bit about transports, but *shrugs* 2 - No, the AdMech and GK codices were not better than SM by any leap of the imagination. Sarcasm again. They are not "so far." Seriously. 3 - You totally missed the point. I brought up Tau as a counter-example because you were arguing that one good build wasn't sufficient to make an army - SM - playable. 7E Tau clearly demonstrate that this is false. You changed the subject by saying, "Well, the one OP 'nid unit wasn't OP enough to be competitive!" That's a straw man if I had ever heard one, and that claim isn't made about SM. In fact, probably the opposite - they have a couple of the most OP models in the game. Either you didn't read and comprehend the point, or you chose to ignore it in your response and argue something differently. 4 - I rest my case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/19 00:51:05
2018/01/19 01:14:46
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
-A primarch isn't actually a marine unit. Nor are any of their transports.
-All new codices are automatically more powerful than SM, just like AdMech and Grey Knights.
-When asking about competitive builds, the entire codex must be strong for that faction to be viable.
-Slayer-fan's real only defense is accusing people of not reading, when that's exactly what he/she is doing. Projection, much?
1. No, Rowboat is not just a Marine unit.
2. They have been so far.
3. Around more than 60%. I bring up 6th edition Tyranids again as my argument and you have avoided the point as per usual. Unless you really do think 6th/7th edition Tyranids were in fact a competitive codex, in which case all hope is lost for you to understand even the simplest point.
4. You WEREN'T reading.
I genuinely can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you are really just missing the point? I'm hoping it's the latter, so I'll explain.
1 - That was sarcasm. You missed it. You also ignored the bit about transports, but *shrugs*
2 - No, the AdMech and GK codices were not better than SM by any leap of the imagination. Sarcasm again. They are not "so far." Seriously.
3 - You totally missed the point. I brought up Tau as a counter-example because you were arguing that one good build wasn't sufficient to make an army - SM - playable. 7E Tau clearly demonstrate that this is false. You changed the subject by saying, "Well, the one OP 'nid unit wasn't OP enough to be competitive!" That's a straw man if I had ever heard one, and that claim isn't made about SM. In fact, probably the opposite - they have a couple of the most OP models in the game. Either you didn't read and comprehend the point, or you chose to ignore it in your response and argue something differently.
4 - I rest my case.
To be fair, Admech is very possibly better than SM now. They got a pile of discounts, while the best marine units all took price hikes.
I'm fairly sure it likely turns into "did my gunline roll first turn or did yours?" for who wins, but the cawl robot gunline is a tad more efficient than the assback Gman gunline.
That said, I think the best SM list under the ITC meta is Lias Issadon and Raven Guard chapter tactics for a mostly deffered deployment army, with strong drop in elements. The problem is, do you lean on the deferred deployment, or rely on strike from the shadows? If you use units that require SFTS, like hellblasters, then you lose when you fail to get first turn. But they are far more firepower efficient than devs if you can get them in close range
Space marines are, by design, a mid tier army. The problem is that it feels every other army is, by design, not when they get their codex. Except other marine armies and admech. But Chaos REALLY rocks the synnergies and can buff its best units with demons to a ridiculous degree AND comes with chaff right in their book. When doing imperial soup though, there really is little reason to take much space marine verse imperial guard. Maybe a fire rapter tiggy Gman strike package?
Martel732 wrote: If gw recosts marines again then everything changes.
If I listened to you I’d play IG... but I’ll never do that.
Frankly, I think you lie when you say your army wins against GT lists with any regularity.
In my local meta, I rarely lose. But I don't think that means space marines are the best thing evars and I could rock to, say, the LVO and crack the top 5 no sweat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/19 01:23:59
2018/01/19 01:44:50
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/01/19 01:52:23
Subject: What are competitive marine lists running?
