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They cant take any social weapons.

 Perth wrote:
I watched him play round 6, narrow win vs Chaos buffed Fire Raptor. The Ints are there to hold objectives out in the open, they do much better in progressive objective games as opposed to end game scoring.

Most of his heavy lifting is done by characters, Death Co, and Sang Guard.

I think most if not all GW missions should switch to a progressive format.

LVO Missions you can select how you want to score. IMO this came from NOVA.

Mark's list is nice. Equipment of units is very coherant with bolters. Storm bolters for characters.
Intercessors are great as objective holders.
The list lacks explicit anti-tank.

One of the things that made Marines competitive in 2nd edition, and they were only ever "competitive" not dominant, was the rule that allowed them to fire all bolt weapons (pistol, bolter, storm bolter) twice if they remained stationary.

Being able to double their anti-infantry firepower allowed them to compensate for being outnumbered two to one or more.

Adding that back into the game would, I think, help bring them to the competitive level.

Arson Fire wrote:
There are a few lists posted in the Tournament Discussions thread. The only one I can see belonging to one of the BA players is from the guy currently in 4th place.

Spoiler:

The other listed as BA is about half guard but for BA is sanguinary guard focused with scouts. Guard is all screen units and chaff. Looks like both NA lists are using assault for anti-armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
9th was also a half BA with guard for screens.

Looks like we can say competitive BA will use sanguinary guard and death company.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Mark's list is nice. Equipment of units is very coherant with bolters. Storm bolters for characters.
Intercessors are great as objective holders.
The list lacks explicit anti-tank.

I assume its anti-tank comes from charging them.

Very interesting list, and glad to see 4 intercessor squads in it. I run three myself and they always do great work in terms of presence, objective control, bullying and if all else fails, dying well.

Can I throw up a topic for this thread? I haven't seen much mention of FW models, and a lot of tournaments allow them now.

Specifically, what are people's opinions on Mortis and Leviathan dreads? A 4-lascannon contemptor mortis hits on a 2+, has a 5++, has a small footprint that makes LOS easier to manage, and can make use of the RG CT, all for 15pts more than a LasPred. I don't see them in use much, but I can say that, from running two myself, they can dish out a lot of highly accurate antitank fire.

Secondly, the Dakka Leviathan is a beast. For 309pts you get a really tough platform with 20 S7 -2 D2 shots a turn, hitting on 2+. T8 is a big deal, as is 4++, and finally a libby can pump it up to T9, which has a huge impact on survivability.

Running these three as anti-tank/anti-everything costs you 720pts, plus 160 for the mandatory cap and LT, leaving you with 1120 for the rest of your list.

Have other people had much experience with these units? I have nothing but good things to say about them both, but of course that's anecdotal.

I think the issue with dreads of any kind is durability and degrading profile in some cases. Invul saves are nice. But failing just 1 or 2 can cost you the whole dread or weaken it substantially.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
One of the things that made Marines competitive in 2nd edition, and they were only ever "competitive" not dominant, was the rule that allowed them to fire all bolt weapons (pistol, bolter, storm bolter) twice if they remained stationary.

Being able to double their anti-infantry firepower allowed them to compensate for being outnumbered two to one or more.

Adding that back into the game would, I think, help bring them to the competitive level.

Marines weren't competitive in 2nd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
There are a few lists posted in the Tournament Discussions thread. The only one I can see belonging to one of the BA players is from the guy currently in 4th place.

Spoiler:

The other listed as BA is about half guard but for BA is sanguinary guard focused with scouts. Guard is all screen units and chaff. Looks like both NA lists are using assault for anti-armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
9th was also a half BA with guard for screens.

Looks like we can say competitive BA will use sanguinary guard and death company.

I still don't think DC are that great.

I still don't think DC are that great.

The enemy cannot ignore them.
This gives you some tactical flexibility during the game.

They are really easy to kill. Big problem, imo.

If they are killing them they aren't killing other things. You wanted tourney results, here they are. If you still don't like them then maybe you chose the wrong faction. It is notable that guard in the top lists was basically all chaff. Guard is very beatable so long as you don't try to out shoot them. My 2k list just tabled a guard gunline (3 mantacors, 2 basilisks, 100 guardsman otherstuff). After going second.

He'll inevitably have to play an Alaitoc list now that he's in the top 8, so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. I wouldn't count him out, and as the only non-soup list that isn't Eldar I would really LIKE to see him win, but... we shall see.

Breng77 wrote:
If they are killing them they aren't killing other things. You wanted tourney results, here they are. If you still don't like them then maybe you chose the wrong faction. It is notable that guard in the top lists was basically all chaff. Guard is very beatable so long as you don't try to out shoot them. My 2k list just tabled a guard gunline (3 mantacors, 2 basilisks, 100 guardsman otherstuff). After going second.

Maybe I did. I really hate the rules for DC in 8th. 2K list of what? Because trying to melee them seems futile.

DC are great. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they aren’t good. I think you’re trolling this thread TBH.

 Primark G wrote:
DC are great. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they aren’t good. I think you’re trolling this thread TBH.

Great at what? Giving up 20pts/wound when they are inevitably shot in the face?

My 2k list

Battalion - White Scars

Captain on bike, storm bolter
Lieutenant jump pack storm bolter

3 x 5 scouts (1 bolter squad, 1 shotgun squad, 1 ccw squad)

9 scout bikes
5 aggressors (bolters)

Outrider -Dark Angels
Sableclaw
Talonmaster-warlord brilliant strategist, Heaven fall blade
2x 3 plasma inceptors
5 man Bike squad 2 plasma combo plasma MM attack bike
4 man bike squad 2 plasma combo-plasma MM attack bike.

 Primark G wrote:
DC are great. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they aren’t good. I think you’re trolling this thread TBH.

As someone who's been arguing with Martel for quite a long time I don't think he's trolling, I think he's expressing honest frustration with trying to play a subpar army just because he likes it in a hyper-competitive playgroup. Whether he's always justified in his complaints is another matter.

Turn 1 I lost 6 scout bikes, all the aggressors, 5 scouts across the three squads, and 2 bikes.

I tabled the last BA guy who tried the Lemartes bomb against me. They just can't kill enough before they die like slime. It was satisfying because he sounded just like some of the posters on here. Lemartes bomb is easily defended by anyone with a pulse. I'm happy for the LVO guy, but I don't think DC are a good unit in a general sense.

Yet they made the top 8 in Vegas which shows they are very viable.

Look at who he played to get there. It's not impressive. I can almost guarantee I'd beat that list.

Lol you are a troll indeed.

Martel732 wrote:
Look at who he played to get there. It's not impressive. I can almost guarantee I'd beat that list.

The Chaos list he beat in the last round was pretty legitimate. Again, we'll have to see how he does against Alaitoc, if he wins that game then this is a very different discussion.

You offer no "why's" to any of your posts. Who is the real troll. I've described very specifically why I think DC suck. I've backed this up against live opponents. How often do you face DC and do you actually lose to them?

The only trolling I've seen in this thread is coming from you PrimarkG, for all the reasons that have already been pointed out. It's great that you're having success and think your army is fantastic, but you're going to have to do better if you want to convince others about why it's so good.

Primaris is the kind of marine player that talks crap but then wonders why his scoutless army gets crippled turn 1 by quadruple scions.

Scouts, by the way, made the DC blob lose. Scouts. Think about that before you go on about how awesome they are.

DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The issue with look at who he played is that many of those also won a bunch of games. His strength of schedule is about average for the top 8. Did he face his worst matchup probably not. But winning 6 games at a major is a feat for any army. It is easy to look at lists and say you can beat it and another to do so with the pilot behind it. Go look at Sean naydens Eldar list and tell me it looks super strong to you.