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Zhan wrote:I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.
If anyone's here to troll, I don't think it's Crimson.
The title of this thread is "Thousand Sons are dead" - if Crimson can prove another army has it worse, then it's incorrect. Besides - I don't think (prove me wrong here) that anyone's been saying "X have it worse" - I think it's been more "Thousand Sons aren't crippled, you don't need Tzaangors, you're in a better state than you were beforeand. You've lost nothing, only gained things, and the flavour of the faction is unchanged from what it was in 5th, barring you now have optional Tzaangor allies."
Fun is subjective, but Tzaangors shouldn't really affect that, considering they're optional - your comments below about psychic warfare are good, but I fear it's more of an 8th issue than TS.
Balanced, we can't really tell without having the codex here. We can't say they'll be brilliant or terrible, but from what we can seen, they're clearly not as bad as the title makes out.
Back to the topic:
Imo the TS suffer from the MW mechanic only in the psychic phase the most. In the 7th edition you had psychic powers for everything: anti-tank/anti-horde/mobility spells etc. If you have a psychic solution to all problems a full psyker army like the TS can work.
And this is also what appealed to me in the 7th. If thousands sons needed something done they turn to psychic powers.
But in the 8th edition we are limited to mortal wound spells. Which is very good against elite armies but not against armies with a high model count. So in order to keep these powers somewhat relevant, GW make these powers function as "sniper rifles" to take out characters.
Which i feel is rather out of place for psychic powers.
You also see it if you look at the tzeentch daemon codex. Which i think is a good showcase for what GW has in mind for psychic heavy armies:
1. Not a lot of changes to the psychic powers. Just expanded the list a bit but no real buffs to the excising ones.
2. The "targeted smites" require a WC of 8+ which makes it only effective sticking it on stuff with a with a +2 to cast (magnus/LoC/Kairos).
On the other hand magnus needs his +1 invul/warptime/-1 to hit so perhaps just stick Doombolt on some rubrics and hope you get lucky once or twice per game.
3. As for the question how to deal with high model count armies. Tzeentch got a lot of buffs in shooting/assault and i think we will be no different. And we also know how they will do it, in the form of tzaangors.
I don't think Tzaangors will be great at much - they'll fill some small gaps, but they offensively won't change too much.
They DO shift things in that they are a cheap, screening unit - that will be a new realm the TS can explore.
A possible reason as to why the TS don't have a masssive focus on psychic powers is because GW wants to avoid the psychic battery mess caused in 7th.
Overall not too exciting stuff imho. Ironically to me they will become like every other 40k army. Mostly a shooting/assault army with some psychic support. They only difference is that we do not have/get a power armored model army.
Sorry, correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but "power armour"? What is it that Rubricae, Ahriman, Aspiring Sorcerors (and if you push the definition of power armour out to Space Marines armour, Scarab Occult) wear if not power armour?
And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....
Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.
I never said any models are good or bad....
No, but deeper in you said "the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers" , which was called out by the other guy.
So, sure, we didn't get new rubrics, but the ones we do have potentially got way more interesting.
No he didnt I did and you should check my previous post.
And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....
Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.
I never said any models are good or bad....
No, but deeper in you said "the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers" , which was called out by the other guy.
So, sure, we didn't get new rubrics, but the ones we do have potentially got way more interesting.
I didnt say they weren't... I have even said multiple times I love the new Tzaangor stuff. I like the models. I dont however like the direction of the codex.
This is a 22 page of continuous arguments where nobody is agreeing, actually went to the news and rumors page and continued the arguments there, and Thousand Son Sorcerer said with actual seriousness
I informed you thusly
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
The fact this topic has been left to continue is surprising.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/21 19:10:02
Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade
You are not getting new models. Grow up and deal with it for God's sake. You are just like 80% of the rest of 8th Codex/Armies. At least you receive new unit options, yeah ported from AoS so what? Its better than nothing. Email GW with your feedback if it upset you so much.
And please save yourself you "If you don't want to read this don't open this thread, this is a discussion forum". Because this is a discussion forum I'm telling you to mature.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade
You are not getting new models. Grow up and deal with it for God's sake. You are just like 80% of the rest of 8th Codex/Armies. At least you receive new unit options, yeah ported from AoS so what? Its better than nothing. Email GW with your feedback if it upset you so much.
And please save yourself you "If you don't want to read this don't open this thread, this is a discussion forum". Because this is a discussion forum I'm telling you to mature.
Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.
Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.
They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual battle force. I bet that upgrade sprue is in a fething plastic bag.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
The comparison is flawed. The earth is not flat, never was so you were in fact, never correct at any point.
Now was it silly to assume we'd get nothing for our psykers? Sure. Doesn't matter though.
Long story short on this dumpster-fire of a thread; Thousand sons are going to be fantastic.
Strongest psykers in the game barring *maybe* Eldar. (makes enough sense)
We will have great Rubric and Tzaangor options, as well as a plethora of big nasties to field, along with the most robust casting set of spells in the game.
now whether or not you agree with the goats; Its going to be a good dex, either casually or competitively. there is no real denying this.
As for "what" is effective I believe one of the gents on dakka already said something along the lines of "90% of the game is "not effective" in a competitive setting" Or something akin to it.
We will be fine. I said it all along, little bit of faith goes a long way, we are getting far far far more attention then many lists got; just ask... Grey Knights, Ad Mech, or any non DG/Primaris lists this past edition.
We got more attention then anyone barring Primaris and Death Guard. Get over it, get your codex, enjoy it lol.
nintura wrote: Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
The comparison is flawed. The earth is not flat, never was so you were in fact, never correct at any point.
Now was it silly to assume we'd get nothing for our psykers? Sure. Doesn't matter though.
That's the point, both assumptions were entirely wrong, he wasn't correct at the time he was just wrong. Totally utterly wrong because he made stupid assumptions. Pretty much everyone crying doom and gloom and the tsons codex has just been wrong constantly. Wrong about the lore of their own army and wrong about the assumptions they made regarding the balance of their army.
I swear, it takes a lot to try and act smugly correct after spewing nothing utter idiocy and objectively incorrect statements for pages.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 19:40:08
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:The reason we are not counting Generic CSM units is because they are generic CSM units. We are talking about units unique to the army which can be taken repeatedly. Ahriman is and Exalted beefed up a bit. Maguns is an army unto himself and is hardly some you would take more then 1 of(if you could).
So BA players and DA players should be "dead" too then? After all, their codexes are practically 90% generic units, not even unique ones! Terrible! It's almost like splinter factions of main ones also have access to the same units!
And if we're banning unique units (because reasons?) then that's even LESS for the DA and BA.
There are 3 TS units right now Exalted, Rubrics, and SOT. Rubrics and SOT fill the same role, Exalted fill a different role, but there are huge gaps in our army. Those are being filled with Tzaangor units and a Giant Spawn, not any kind of Rubric unit.
Sorry, Rubricae and SOT fill the same role? What? I mean, if that's true, I guess that an all-soulreaper squad must count as the same role too, because it's just a weapon change. I guess the Grey Knights must also be dead, because they have pretty much the same. Hold up, Tactical Marines and Terminators are basically the same now too.
Suffice to say, I disagree with that notion.
Also, it appers there are 2 variants of the Enlightened a melee version and a ranged version. So thats 2 Tzaangors units there, then regular Tzaangors, then the Shaman, 4 units in total compared to the 3.
Only if we're following your flawed method of deciding what is and isn't TS.
Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubricae, Scarab Occult and Magnus - and that's not even including the generic stuff, which is somehow not TS because...?
There is no reason to have the Shaman, none. Exalted Kit comes with a bunch of bits, you could have easily created an elite unit that buffed units and the shaman never enters the picture. 1k sons have wanted a Psyker Dread for some time now which would give us an actual antitank option. Just doing those 2 things there would completely change the how the serup would work for our army.
You have Mortal Wounds from your psykers, and the Predator. There's your anti-tank.
But as it stands our "chaff" unit is neither chaff nor TS, our Rubrics are our chaff, and SOT are a worse version of the Rubrics. Were getting 3 new Tzzangor units which will fill FA slots. These two units fill at least 2 roles, anti-vehicle and general backline disruption, Tzaangors are anti-horde and objective holding. Our Rubrics do what? The're "difficult" to kill and good at killing things in the open that don't have an invul save, but low str keeps them from killing anything noticible, unless you use CP on them and even then it only affects 1 unit.
Sorry, how are the Tzaangor not chaff? They're cheaper, more numerous, and lack as much of an offensive hit as the Rubricae.
Why aren't they chaff?
Your Rubricae follow the same problem as most MEQ - "tough" and armed with weaponry that gets outclassed by anything tougher than the wielder or more numerous. It's an issue with elite forces in general.
The simple fact is we have had the same problem since index release. Our Rubrics die easily to OC Plasma and our "chaff" has an invul save. No one is going to shoot AP - at a model that has a 2+ save and no one is going to shoot an AP -3 weapon at a unit that has only an Invul save.
Because that's target priority. It's like saying "yeah, it's so stupid that guardsmen have tanks and infantry, no-one's going to shoot those infantry with lascannons, and no-one going to shoot the tank with lasguns."
Now we just need anti tank which the Skyfires do well. But they could have easily added a 3 man squad of SOT with Soul Reapers and Hellfyre Racks they have the models for it already. Slap it in a new box and sell that. Nope, Tzaangors with Discs great, more models to buy.
You don't need to buy them. Up to you.
Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.
Those plebs with bows are described by GW as "Elite Tzaangors, possessing strange feathers and elaborate horns, the Tzaangor Enlightened are truly blessed with the favour of Tzeentch. They wield ornate spears that set them above their lesser kin, some even riding upon Discs of Tzeentch. Tzaangor Enlightened can see strands of the past – foes cower in superstitious fear as the Enlightened give voice to events from their lives that no-one ought to have knowledge of." Emphasis mine. Not exactly "plebs".
SOT, fair point. TS vehicles could be automated by daemonic forces - forge that narrative.
The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.
Or, just maybe, maybe, it's REALLY expensive to build new molds, and using assets from a different faction, which ALSO happen to fit perfectly narratively into the army is cost effective and gives the army something drastically new and fluffy.
I informed you thusly
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
The comparison is flawed. The earth is not flat, never was so you were in fact, never correct at any point.
Now was it silly to assume we'd get nothing for our psykers? Sure. Doesn't matter though.
Now you're just playing pedantics to defend the absurd. The Earth isn't round, either. It's an oblate spheroid. Woo hoo!
You could say that about literally anything. It doesn't make someone smart or insightful to make baseless and absurd claims sans information.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahriman21 wrote: Long story short on this dumpster-fire of a thread; Thousand sons are going to be fantastic.
Strongest psykers in the game barring *maybe* Eldar. (makes enough sense)
We will have great Rubric and Tzaangor options, as well as a plethora of big nasties to field, along with the most robust casting set of spells in the game.
now whether or not you agree with the goats; Its going to be a good dex, either casually or competitively. there is no real denying this.
As for "what" is effective I believe one of the gents on dakka already said something along the lines of "90% of the game is "not effective" in a competitive setting" Or something akin to it.
We will be fine. I said it all along, little bit of faith goes a long way, we are getting far far far more attention then many lists got; just ask... Grey Knights, Ad Mech, or any non DG/Primaris lists this past edition.
We got more attention then anyone barring Primaris and Death Guard. Get over it, get your codex, enjoy it lol.
Yea i'm 110% excited. I can't wait to actually discuss the real book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/21 19:41:13
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
Why do you keep assuming the WORST outcome? And not in a "Well, I'm expecting this. If its end being better I'll be happy", nooo. You are in a "ALL IS HORRIBLE AND WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! I'LL BE RIGHT YOU'LL SEE!"
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade
You are not getting new models. Grow up and deal with it for God's sake. You are just like 80% of the rest of 8th Codex/Armies. At least you receive new unit options, yeah ported from AoS so what? Its better than nothing. Email GW with your feedback if it upset you so much.
And please save yourself you "If you don't want to read this don't open this thread, this is a discussion forum". Because this is a discussion forum I'm telling you to mature.
Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.
Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.
They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual battle force. I bet that upgrade sprue is in a fething plastic bag.
Incorrect. GW have never sold TS as a standalone army until very recently. Before this, you had 2/TWO units, and one of these was unique (which you love to disclude).
TS can be an army of Rubricae and Sorcerers. Just because you CAN run some chaff doesn't mean you have to. Does that mean that BA aren't assault themed? After all, I can take Devastators and Vindicators in the list!
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
Why do you keep assuming the WORST outcome? And not in a "Well, I'm expecting this. If its end being better I'll be happy", nooo. You are in a "ALL IS HORRIBLE AND WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! I'LL BE RIGHT YOU'LL SEE!"
Is just... I don't know. Why?
Not an Argument I am not assuming I am right. I have presented my argument either refute it or agree. Don't ask questions like why do you think your right when you habe access to that information.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
So he was still wrong at the time? That's moving the goalposts given we had no information at the time.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:The reason we are not counting Generic CSM units is because they are generic CSM units. We are talking about units unique to the army which can be taken repeatedly. Ahriman is and Exalted beefed up a bit. Maguns is an army unto himself and is hardly some you would take more then 1 of(if you could).
So BA players and DA players should be "dead" too then? After all, their codexes are practically 90% generic units, not even unique ones! Terrible! It's almost like splinter factions of main ones also have access to the same units!
And if we're banning unique units (because reasons?) then that's even LESS for the DA and BA.
There are 3 TS units right now Exalted, Rubrics, and SOT. Rubrics and SOT fill the same role, Exalted fill a different role, but there are huge gaps in our army. Those are being filled with Tzaangor units and a Giant Spawn, not any kind of Rubric unit.
Sorry, Rubricae and SOT fill the same role? What? I mean, if that's true, I guess that an all-soulreaper squad must count as the same role too, because it's just a weapon change. I guess the Grey Knights must also be dead, because they have pretty much the same. Hold up, Tactical Marines and Terminators are basically the same now too.
Suffice to say, I disagree with that notion.
Also, it appers there are 2 variants of the Enlightened a melee version and a ranged version. So thats 2 Tzaangors units there, then regular Tzaangors, then the Shaman, 4 units in total compared to the 3.
Only if we're following your flawed method of deciding what is and isn't TS. Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubricae, Scarab Occult and Magnus - and that's not even including the generic stuff, which is somehow not TS because...?
There is no reason to have the Shaman, none. Exalted Kit comes with a bunch of bits, you could have easily created an elite unit that buffed units and the shaman never enters the picture. 1k sons have wanted a Psyker Dread for some time now which would give us an actual antitank option. Just doing those 2 things there would completely change the how the serup would work for our army.
You have Mortal Wounds from your psykers, and the Predator. There's your anti-tank.
But as it stands our "chaff" unit is neither chaff nor TS, our Rubrics are our chaff, and SOT are a worse version of the Rubrics. Were getting 3 new Tzzangor units which will fill FA slots. These two units fill at least 2 roles, anti-vehicle and general backline disruption, Tzaangors are anti-horde and objective holding. Our Rubrics do what? The're "difficult" to kill and good at killing things in the open that don't have an invul save, but low str keeps them from killing anything noticible, unless you use CP on them and even then it only affects 1 unit.
Sorry, how are the Tzaangor not chaff? They're cheaper, more numerous, and lack as much of an offensive hit as the Rubricae.
Why aren't they chaff?
Your Rubricae follow the same problem as most MEQ - "tough" and armed with weaponry that gets outclassed by anything tougher than the wielder or more numerous. It's an issue with elite forces in general.
The simple fact is we have had the same problem since index release. Our Rubrics die easily to OC Plasma and our "chaff" has an invul save. No one is going to shoot AP - at a model that has a 2+ save and no one is going to shoot an AP -3 weapon at a unit that has only an Invul save.
Because that's target priority. It's like saying "yeah, it's so stupid that guardsmen have tanks and infantry, no-one's going to shoot those infantry with lascannons, and no-one going to shoot the tank with lasguns."
Now we just need anti tank which the Skyfires do well. But they could have easily added a 3 man squad of SOT with Soul Reapers and Hellfyre Racks they have the models for it already. Slap it in a new box and sell that. Nope, Tzaangors with Discs great, more models to buy.
You don't need to buy them. Up to you.
Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.
Those plebs with bows are described by GW as "Elite Tzaangors, possessing strange feathers and elaborate horns, the Tzaangor Enlightened are truly blessed with the favour of Tzeentch. They wield ornate spears that set them above their lesser kin, some even riding upon Discs of Tzeentch. Tzaangor Enlightened can see strands of the past – foes cower in superstitious fear as the Enlightened give voice to events from their lives that no-one ought to have knowledge of." Emphasis mine. Not exactly "plebs".
SOT, fair point. TS vehicles could be automated by daemonic forces - forge that narrative.
The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.
Or, just maybe, maybe, it's REALLY expensive to build new molds, and using assets from a different faction, which ALSO happen to fit perfectly narratively into the army is cost effective and gives the army something drastically new and fluffy.
I informed you thusly
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
Forgive me if I missed something, but I don't get it?
No. BA and DA have plenty of unique models to themselves.
- They have their own upgrade pack - Not quite the same argument, but their own rules for a Furioso dread - Librarian Dread - Death Company - Death Company Dread - Sanguinary Priest - Not counting, but tons of unique HQs (8? 9?) - Baal Pred - Sanguinary Guard
Dark Angels: - upgrade kit - interrogator-chaplain - own special veteran squad - banner bearer - ravenwing darkshroud - deathwing assault termie - ravenwing bike squad - deathwing command squad - deathwing knights - deathwing terminator squad - vehicle upgrade sprue - ravenwing upgrade sprue - land speeder vengeance - fallen models (did not know this...) - unique characters (7? 8? Again, not counting, just mentioning)
Rubrics and Scarabs do and do not fill a similar role. They have the same weapons loadouts. Powerswords are next to useless, I'd love to have Fists. They kill the same targets. Where they differ is mobility. Terms can deep strike.
Mortal wounds are not anti-tank. For the most part you can only cast the same power once a turn. Smite gets less and less effective. A lascannon is arguably far more effective. A melta even more so. They help, for sure. But are not reliable enough and you risk blowing up your squad on your one wound models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/21 19:59:35
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
YESSS! More baseless assumptions! I can't wait to see how those turn out. I did learn that you are currently TOTALLY correct, because we have no other conflicting info. Congrats!
As a matter of fact, yes, our 1W psykers are going to die more now, because we'll be casting more often due to not being out of range of something with a silly tiny smite. So while you lament that "smite is no longer available" i'll be rejoicing that my sorcerers do more than toss out a single wound in rounds 2 and 3.
SilverAlien wrote: Quite possibly, but by the same logic he'd be better of dropping the entire army and playing demons or renegades and heretics. Horde armies are better than elite armies overall. Even if gors didn't exist rubrics are worse than cultists or various horror variants overall. You are describing an issue with the edition as a whole, ignoring that you actually have a solution to the problem in your own codex unlike many armies.
Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.
Again though, it'd hardly be surprising if rubrics weren't worth using as troops because every space marine army has that problem. Vanilla CSM armies use cultists or daemons (WE can use some zerkers, but even they fill out with cultists for CP), imperial SM use scouts or ally in IG, and deathguard use cultists, poxwalkers, or daemon troops for the majority.
It's partially that space marine statline infantry are overpriced (probably the generalist issue again), partially the way detachments and CP encourage cheap troops, and partially that troops are mainly used for sitting on objectives which chaff tends to do best.
Rubrics could end up like Plague marines, where they have useful roles and taking a couple isn't a bad idea, but the biggest issue is scarab occult are generally just a better version of the unit. The only thing I can see rubrics doing better is spamming psychic powers or a squad with warpflamers in a rhino. This stands in contrast to blightlords vs PM, where the two units generally have fairly different loadouts and roles.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.
Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
Why do you keep assuming the WORST outcome? And not in a "Well, I'm expecting this. If its end being better I'll be happy", nooo. You are in a "ALL IS HORRIBLE AND WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! I'LL BE RIGHT YOU'LL SEE!"
Is just... I don't know. Why?
Not an Argument I am not assuming I am right. I have presented my argument either refute it or agree. Don't ask questions like why do you think your right when you habe access to that information.
But, we already know the sorcerers went down to the same price as a normal rubric in the CSM codex. At absolute worst they might go back to the old price (which would suck).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/21 20:04:18
"Oh its so woefully bad!, So terribly horrible! Trust me it will be AWFUL!"
*army showcase showing them beating a brand new codex*
"Oh no still so woefully bad and terribly horrible!"
*Hands over buffs*
"Oh but its still so terribly bad and woefully horribly! for other lack of options!"
*new unit options*
"Never! For they are the wrong options and are also terribly bad and woefully horribly! As well as our aspiring sorcerers being useless models!"
*Gives new casting options to said aspiring sorcerers*
"OH WOES ME THE MIS-CASTS!!! so useless and awful!"
Do you realize how juvenile you sound right now?
You are 100% determined to look toward a horrible and terrible future for the army, sadly we cant help you there as thats a pre-determined outcome and in this case a self-fulfilling prophecy on your part.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:The reason we are not counting Generic CSM units is because they are generic CSM units. We are talking about units unique to the army which can be taken repeatedly. Ahriman is and Exalted beefed up a bit. Maguns is an army unto himself and is hardly some you would take more then 1 of(if you could).
So BA players and DA players should be "dead" too then? After all, their codexes are practically 90% generic units, not even unique ones! Terrible! It's almost like splinter factions of main ones also have access to the same units!
And if we're banning unique units (because reasons?) then that's even LESS for the DA and BA.
There are 3 TS units right now Exalted, Rubrics, and SOT. Rubrics and SOT fill the same role, Exalted fill a different role, but there are huge gaps in our army. Those are being filled with Tzaangor units and a Giant Spawn, not any kind of Rubric unit.
Sorry, Rubricae and SOT fill the same role? What? I mean, if that's true, I guess that an all-soulreaper squad must count as the same role too, because it's just a weapon change. I guess the Grey Knights must also be dead, because they have pretty much the same. Hold up, Tactical Marines and Terminators are basically the same now too.
Suffice to say, I disagree with that notion.
Also, it appers there are 2 variants of the Enlightened a melee version and a ranged version. So thats 2 Tzaangors units there, then regular Tzaangors, then the Shaman, 4 units in total compared to the 3.
Only if we're following your flawed method of deciding what is and isn't TS.
Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubricae, Scarab Occult and Magnus - and that's not even including the generic stuff, which is somehow not TS because...?
There is no reason to have the Shaman, none. Exalted Kit comes with a bunch of bits, you could have easily created an elite unit that buffed units and the shaman never enters the picture. 1k sons have wanted a Psyker Dread for some time now which would give us an actual antitank option. Just doing those 2 things there would completely change the how the serup would work for our army.
You have Mortal Wounds from your psykers, and the Predator. There's your anti-tank.
But as it stands our "chaff" unit is neither chaff nor TS, our Rubrics are our chaff, and SOT are a worse version of the Rubrics. Were getting 3 new Tzzangor units which will fill FA slots. These two units fill at least 2 roles, anti-vehicle and general backline disruption, Tzaangors are anti-horde and objective holding. Our Rubrics do what? The're "difficult" to kill and good at killing things in the open that don't have an invul save, but low str keeps them from killing anything noticible, unless you use CP on them and even then it only affects 1 unit.
Sorry, how are the Tzaangor not chaff? They're cheaper, more numerous, and lack as much of an offensive hit as the Rubricae.
Why aren't they chaff?
Your Rubricae follow the same problem as most MEQ - "tough" and armed with weaponry that gets outclassed by anything tougher than the wielder or more numerous. It's an issue with elite forces in general.
The simple fact is we have had the same problem since index release. Our Rubrics die easily to OC Plasma and our "chaff" has an invul save. No one is going to shoot AP - at a model that has a 2+ save and no one is going to shoot an AP -3 weapon at a unit that has only an Invul save.
Because that's target priority. It's like saying "yeah, it's so stupid that guardsmen have tanks and infantry, no-one's going to shoot those infantry with lascannons, and no-one going to shoot the tank with lasguns."
Now we just need anti tank which the Skyfires do well. But they could have easily added a 3 man squad of SOT with Soul Reapers and Hellfyre Racks they have the models for it already. Slap it in a new box and sell that. Nope, Tzaangors with Discs great, more models to buy.
You don't need to buy them. Up to you.
Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.
Those plebs with bows are described by GW as "Elite Tzaangors, possessing strange feathers and elaborate horns, the Tzaangor Enlightened are truly blessed with the favour of Tzeentch. They wield ornate spears that set them above their lesser kin, some even riding upon Discs of Tzeentch. Tzaangor Enlightened can see strands of the past – foes cower in superstitious fear as the Enlightened give voice to events from their lives that no-one ought to have knowledge of." Emphasis mine. Not exactly "plebs".
SOT, fair point. TS vehicles could be automated by daemonic forces - forge that narrative.
The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.
Or, just maybe, maybe, it's REALLY expensive to build new molds, and using assets from a different faction, which ALSO happen to fit perfectly narratively into the army is cost effective and gives the army something drastically new and fluffy.
I informed you thusly
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
Forgive me if I missed something, but I don't get it?
You can't build an army from unique units (Except SW I think)
Glad to see you agree. Before you say you don't agree understand that saying "me too" or " them too" means it's happening to them as well, not that it isn't happening.
Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.
How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.
Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.
Guardsman are not max range 12 units Tanks have a range longer then 24 inchs you can deploy the tanks 18" behind the guardsman and prevent things like Plasma And melta from getting to them. How well will that work for Tzaangors and Rubrics? Espically with those awesome flamers?
Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special? And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales. It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahriman21 wrote: "Oh its so woefully bad!, So terribly horrible! Trust me it will be AWFUL!"
*army showcase showing them beating a brand new codex*
"Oh no still so woefully bad and terribly horrible!"
*Hands over buffs*
"Oh but its still so terribly bad and woefully horribly! for other lack of options!"
*new unit options*
"Never! For they are the wrong options and are also terribly bad and woefully horribly! As well as our aspiring sorcerers being useless models!"
*Gives new casting options to said aspiring sorcerers*
"OH WOES ME THE MIS-CASTS!!! so useless and awful!"
Do you realize how juvenile you sound right now?
You are 100% determined to look toward a horrible and terrible future for the army, sadly we cant help you there as thats a pre-determined outcome and in this case a self-fulfilling prophecy on your part.
You realize im saying none of that right?
What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: This is a 22 page of continuous arguments where nobody is agreeing, actually went to the news and rumors page and continued the arguments there, and Thousand Son Sorcerer said with actual seriousness
I informed you thusly
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
The fact this topic has been left to continue is surprising.
Again ad hominims galore this is not an argument.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 21:33:54
