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 Formosa wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Your doing a lot of running around and telling people to shut up and deal with it. What gives?

There's a fry (from futurama) meme on the net of "shut up and give them your money!". That's just how some people are. For all the talk of haters, white knights are just as bad in that respect.

Myself? If they had called this: codex: tzeentch daemonkin, i wouldn't have had a problem. There was even precedent for it. But this is not what i'd call codex: thousand sons.

That's because it's not, it is just tzeench deamonkin under a different name, I said quite a few pages back I was expecting the same bland formula that 8th has followed to continue with the new "thousand sons" codex, and I was right, we got some new strats, some new spells and warlord traits but like nearly every 8th codex it lacks character, but this isn't just a chaos problem, all the new books have this problem nearly.

Can you put specific examples of what do you think reflects the lack of character from 8th's Codexes vs 7th's Codexes? I'm not being sarcastic, I have found this critizism some times and I really want to know why people feel that way. For me, 7th codexes were much more complicated and full of useless rules that really didn't add anything to the game, from a fluff, strategic or "characterfull" role. Stratagems alone make the game much more engaging, tactic and choise-based that any kind of formation of most of 7th special rules, IMO.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Let's compare Tzaangors. They are able to get a 2+ rerolling 1s to hit, with 2 AURAS that's no CP and filling a HQ slot in the process. This affects multiple units, 3 to 4 savy? Right there you are getting the effect of 3 spells auto casting no perils risk. Not to mention you still have the actual spell to use on something that dosen't benefit from the aura. Tzaangors are cheaper a lot cheaper, which nets you more CP to spend on things like more relics, pregame upgrades, things of that nature. On top of that you dont need to bank any CP so you can use the 6 cp on morale or rerolls or attacking twice in the first turn. What once was a small gap in mobility has now become a large gap in mobility, due to the CP cost of deep striking and Rubrics point cost they have less mobility because of the inability to take full advantage of the strats without emptying thier CP prior to the game starting.

TL;DR Anything Rubrics do, Tzaangors do better.

The Third Eye doesn't care how many CP you have and will easily net us 2 or 3 CP per game.

Shaman do not fill an HQ role. I'd love to see a battalion list that you think is effective. And you're not getting the 6" within 3 to 4 effective unit without tails on all of them, which reduces models in combat.

Im sure it dosen't, how much will I get on turn one? Need an exact number cause im only starting with 6 so if I spend any before the game starts i might have none when I need a reroll.

 Galas wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Your doing a lot of running around and telling people to shut up and deal with it. What gives?

There's a fry (from futurama) meme on the net of "shut up and give them your money!". That's just how some people are. For all the talk of haters, white knights are just as bad in that respect.

Myself? If they had called this: codex: tzeentch daemonkin, i wouldn't have had a problem. There was even precedent for it. But this is not what i'd call codex: thousand sons.

That's because it's not, it is just tzeench deamonkin under a different name, I said quite a few pages back I was expecting the same bland formula that 8th has followed to continue with the new "thousand sons" codex, and I was right, we got some new strats, some new spells and warlord traits but like nearly every 8th codex it lacks character, but this isn't just a chaos problem, all the new books have this problem nearly.

Can you put concrete examples of what do you think reflects the lack of character from 8th's Codexes vs 7th's Codexes? I'm not being sarcastic, I have found this critizism some times and I really want to know why people feel that way. For me, 7th codexes were much more complicated and full of useless rules that really didn't add anything to the game, from a fluff, strategic or "characterfull" role. Stratagems alone make the game much more engaging, tactic and choise-based that any kind of formation of most of 7th special rules, IMO.

It's not about the special rules. It's about the fact that this was just everything *tzeentch* related thrown into one codex. Much like khorne daemonkin. They had world eaters in there iirc. What makes it more appalling, is it's basically everything that was already, +AoS. And people who didn't even play 1st edition are suddenly jumping through the hoops talking about how 1ksons always had beastmen in their army. Where are the khornegors? Where are the slaangors? Where are the IG beastmen regiments? They basically took a kit for a different system, made 4 pages of rules for it, and ported it into another system. And then called it codex:thousand sons. This isn't 8th vs 7th, this goes back all the way to 1st. Where are the khornegors? WHERE ARE THE PESTIGORS? "death guard" just got a codex, where are the pestigors?

Like i said, i'd have much less problems with it if they'd just called it: codex: tzeentch daemonkin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Can you put concrete examples of what do you think reflects the lack of character from 8th's Codexes vs 7th's Codexes? I'm not being sarcastic, I have found this critizism some times and I really want to know why people feel that way. For me, 7th codexes were much more complicated and full of useless rules that really didn't add anything to the game, from a fluff, strategic or "characterfull" role. Stratagems alone make the game much more engaging, tactic and choise-based that any kind of formation of most of 7th special rules, IMO.

Myself? It's been much of a muchness since i've begun back in the day. The key point to me is the 'primary' units. Sure, the blood angels share just about everything with the ultramarines. But the 'space marine' units in the ba codex, had ba specializations. How many? Off the top of my head: scouts, tactical marines, devastator marines, assault marines. Screw the 'new' units. So, four units, with rules to make them 'ba' and not something else. Meanwhile look at what the 1ksons get: rubric squads and SOT squads. Sure that's only half the numbers, but what have they filled the rest of the codex with? Those csm squads aren't rubrics, they don't have their special rules. The tzaangors? Profanity here.

I said it before and i'll say it again, it would be like having a <random> space marine chapter filled with imperial guard as options. Tzeentch daemonkin? Yeah, that's what i'd call them. Thousand sons? No.

 Formosa wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Your doing a lot of running around and telling people to shut up and deal with it. What gives?

There's a fry (from futurama) meme on the net of "shut up and give them your money!". That's just how some people are. For all the talk of haters, white knights are just as bad in that respect.

Myself? If they had called this: codex: tzeentch daemonkin, i wouldn't have had a problem. There was even precedent for it. But this is not what i'd call codex: thousand sons.

That's because it's not, it is just tzeench deamonkin under a different name, I said quite a few pages back I was expecting the same bland formula that 8th has followed to continue with the new "thousand sons" codex, and I was right, we got some new strats, some new spells and warlord traits but like nearly every 8th codex it lacks character, but this isn't just a chaos problem, all the new books have this problem nearly.

Totally agreed. I stopped playing with the beginning of 5th edition and come back again last year, so i can compare with those older editions. This 8th edition is just dull, boring, and as you say, it lacks character. Good examples are the Death Guard codex with copy-pasted index chaos units without any kind or form of "deathguardization", or this already commented Thousand Sons codex, that is just dull, lame and uninspired as well. Actually, i think there are few or almost none examples for good and characterful rules design in this edition.

As i said, in the list published for the WH Tv game the rubric squad was 5 men without the soulreaper cannon, a strange option that could meant that rubrics only had access to it when in units of 10 or more... And that's what it is actually... How could it be that the Rubrics entry in the CSM codex has one soulreaper every 5 man and in the actual TS codex they have to be 10 to get one?

I have just seen a video-review of the TS codex and it is worse than i feared. Exalted sorcerers, terminators and rubrics are the only 3 units for the Thousand Sons legion. And then you have a lot of copy-pasted units like all the heavy support, the flyer thing, the not-dreadnought thingy, the sorcerer and Terminator sorcerer... All of them just identical to the CSM codex, no special options, no special wargear or rules to reflect that they are actually part of the TS legion. It would have been at least a bit of "flavour" to have things like inferno bolt pistol and combibolters, that if the dreadnought were a psyker dread (if the blood angels can have one i cannot see why the TS not), or something to make them feel like they are actually part of the Thousand Sons besides the KEYWORD thing... And then there are erased things, like no option for a regular sorcerer on disc of Tzeentch... But then you have all the nonsense: expanded options, rules, synergies and everything for tzangors, flying goats and mutated monster...
Still in the codex there are not any way to better launch psychic powers or to avoid perils of the warp. Magnus is the only one that make up a bit for that... But it is absurd that he can still suffer perils, even when he can shrug off that on a 2+... It is also stupid that literal automatons can still be affected by moral, when other armies like the Dark Angels can happily ignore it... All that is another example of why 8th is dull, boring and lacks character.

And a better example is why on warp-hell the demons of the warp can still suffer perils of the warp, literally stupid...

Finally, I see from others comments that "HAPPINESS IS MANDATORY" is still on full enforced here in Dakka. You know that a negative or critizicing post is also a valid post, don't you? It is starting to be a bit annoying. The only people i see attacking others and bringing a negative atmosphere are the ones constantly accusing of "whining" and trying to shut down other people's opinions simply because they don't like them or they think they have the moral high ground to dismiss and diminish somebody else's opinion... That is actually a much more toxic attitude to have and is unfair.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torga_DW wrote:

It's not about the special rules. It's about the fact that this was just everything *tzeentch* related thrown into one codex. Much like khorne daemonkin. They had world eaters in there iirc. What makes it more appalling, is it's basically everything that was already, +AoS. And people who didn't even play 1st edition are suddenly jumping through the hoops talking about how 1ksons always had beastmen in their army. Where are the khornegors? Where are the slaangors? Where are the IG beastmen regiments? They basically took a kit for a different system, made 4 pages of rules for it, and ported it into another system. And then called it codex:thousand sons. This isn't 8th vs 7th, this goes back all the way to 1st. Where are the khornegors? WHERE ARE THE PESTIGORS? "death guard" just got a codex, where are the pestigors?

Like i said, i'd have much less problems with it if they'd just called it: codex: tzeentch daemonkin.
Tzeentch daemonkin? Yeah, that's what i'd call them. Thousand sons? No.

Totally agreed as well.

People that say all that of the Rogue Trader seem to forget that the lore and background changed from RT to all that came after. It was not the same universe or the same story or the same things in general from RT to thereafter... I started in 3rd edition and all the beastmen things were not there. There was a full list of how to make a Thousand Sons army in the 3.5 codex and it was characterful and representative of the TS legion in the background... Then in 4th and 5th edition there was no way of doing a Thousand Sons (or any other legion for that matter...) army...

So, the last iteration of TS army was the 3.5 CSM codex. That one has more options for actual Thousand Sons units that the brand new 8th edition one has... that is just plain sad

 Formosa wrote:


That's because it's not, it is just tzeench deamonkin under a different name, I said quite a few pages back I was expecting the same bland formula that 8th has followed to continue with the new "thousand sons" codex, and I was right, we got some new strats, some new spells and warlord traits but like nearly every 8th codex it lacks character, but this isn't just a chaos problem, all the new books have this problem nearly.

I'm not sure I follow. I feel like this book has tons of character. Especially against other books.

1) Raw psychic power and the most spells of any book.
2) Warpflame Gargoyles which are quintessential TS back in a big way.
3) Tzaangors represented.
4) Chaos spawn shining bright, which has been traditionally a Tzeentch thing.

Yep, there's a few of us who have been saying this very thing for 30 pages now. But you have a couple loud people who want to disagree with you then assume they are right and you are wrong. It's not about what's right and wrong. It's about expectations and laziness.

 nintura wrote:
Yep, there's a few of us who have been saying this very thing for 30 pages now. But you have a couple loud people who want to disagree with you then assume they are right and you are wrong. It's not about what's right and wrong. It's about expectations and laziness.

I think there's a fair bit more nuance to it than that for the rational arguments.

 Warpspy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Your doing a lot of running around and telling people to shut up and deal with it. What gives?

There's a fry (from futurama) meme on the net of "shut up and give them your money!". That's just how some people are. For all the talk of haters, white knights are just as bad in that respect.

Myself? If they had called this: codex: tzeentch daemonkin, i wouldn't have had a problem. There was even precedent for it. But this is not what i'd call codex: thousand sons.

That's because it's not, it is just tzeench deamonkin under a different name, I said quite a few pages back I was expecting the same bland formula that 8th has followed to continue with the new "thousand sons" codex, and I was right, we got some new strats, some new spells and warlord traits but like nearly every 8th codex it lacks character, but this isn't just a chaos problem, all the new books have this problem nearly.

Totally agreed. I stopped playing with the beginning of 5th edition and come back again last year, so i can compare with those older editions. This 8th edition is just dull, boring, and as you say, it lacks character. Good examples are the Death Guard codex with copy-pasted index chaos units without any kind or form of "deathguardization", or this already commented Thousand Sons codex, that is just dull, lame and uninspired as well. Actually, i think there are few or almost none examples for good and characterful rules design in this edition.

As i said, in the list published for the WH Tv game the rubric squad was 5 men without the soulreaper cannon, a strange option that could meant that rubrics only had access to it when in units of 10 or more... And that's what it is actually... How could it be that the Rubrics entry in the CSM codex has one soulreaper every 5 man and in the actual TS codex they have to be 10 to get one?

I have just seen a video-review of the TS codex and it is worse than i feared. Exalted sorcerers, terminators and rubrics are the only 3 units for the Thousand Sons legion. And then you have a lot of copy-pasted units like all the heavy support, the flyer thing, the not-dreadnought thingy, the sorcerer and Terminator sorcerer... All of them just identical to the CSM codex, no special options, no special wargear or rules to reflect that they are actually part of the TS legion. It would have been at least a bit of "flavour" to have things like inferno bolt pistol and combibolters, that if the dreadnought were a psyker dread (if the blood angels can have one i cannot see why the TS not), or something to make them feel like they are actually part of the Thousand Sons besides the KEYWORD thing... And then there are erased things, like no option for a regular sorcerer on disc of Tzeentch... But then you have all the nonsense: expanded options, rules, synergies and everything for tzangors, flying goats and mutated monster...
Still in the codex there are not any way to better launch psychic powers or to avoid perils of the warp. Magnus is the only one that make up a bit for that... But it is absurd that he can still suffer perils, even when he can shrug off that on a 2+... It is also stupid that literal automatons can still be affected by moral, when other armies like the Dark Angels can happily ignore it... All that is another example of why 8th is dull, boring and lacks character.

And a better example is why on warp-hell the demons of the warp can still suffer perils of the warp, literally stupid...

Finally, I see from others comments that "HAPPINESS IS MANDATORY" is still on full enforced here in Dakka. You know that a negative or critizicing post is also a valid post, don't you? It is starting to be a bit annoying. The only people i see attacking others and bringing a negative atmosphere are the ones constantly accusing of "whining" and trying to shut down other people's opinions simply because they don't like them or they think they have the moral high ground to dismiss and diminish somebody else's opinion... That is actually a much more toxic attitude to have and is unfair.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torga_DW wrote:

It's not about the special rules. It's about the fact that this was just everything *tzeentch* related thrown into one codex. Much like khorne daemonkin. They had world eaters in there iirc. What makes it more appalling, is it's basically everything that was already, +AoS. And people who didn't even play 1st edition are suddenly jumping through the hoops talking about how 1ksons always had beastmen in their army. Where are the khornegors? Where are the slaangors? Where are the IG beastmen regiments? They basically took a kit for a different system, made 4 pages of rules for it, and ported it into another system. And then called it codex:thousand sons. This isn't 8th vs 7th, this goes back all the way to 1st. Where are the khornegors? WHERE ARE THE PESTIGORS? "death guard" just got a codex, where are the pestigors?

Like i said, i'd have much less problems with it if they'd just called it: codex: tzeentch daemonkin.
Tzeentch daemonkin? Yeah, that's what i'd call them. Thousand sons? No.

Totally agreed as well.

People that say all that of the Rogue Trader seem to forget that the lore and background changed from RT to all that came after. It was not the same universe or the same story or the same things in general from RT to thereafter... I started in 3rd edition and all the beastmen things were not there. There was a full list of how to make a Thousand Sons army in the 3.5 codex and it was characterful and representative of the TS legion in the background... Then in 4th and 5th edition there was no way of doing a Thousand Sons (or any other legion for that matter...) army...

So, the last iteration of TS army was the 3.5 CSM codex. That one has more options for actual Thousand Sons units that the brand new 8th edition one has... that is just plain sad

I think I have said this twice before, maybe three times and have been ignored (which is fine). But if you re-read the previous posts you will find half, if not more, the people simply thought it was silly to make declarations without hard evidence. Which the original poster did not have at the time. That and the thread title is complete hyperbole and will be until many games are played. This combination of things earned the detractor posts. Alot of us, as evidenced are saddened by the lack of actual marines in this release but there is also the fact that posting it here will not change anything. The effort is simply wasted. He should be contacting GW making his displeasure known. I have. My point is that this is less of a mandatory happiness reaction and more of a reaction to the things I have listed above. Now Im sure some people "enforce happiness" or are cases of stockholm syndrome.

I never played rogue trader. I had bought the book in first week of release because I was a preteen and I loved the cover. This has no point. Just thought id make a statement in regards to detractors not even playing 1st edition.

Here's your rationale:

Us: It's Codex Thousand Sons. We'd have liked to have seen ANYTHING that would have improved how we can take Rubricae and different options for sorcerors, whether upgrades or different squads of units for pure Thousand Sons. We have no problems with Tzaangor, we'd just liked to have seen more for the reason we played the army in the first place

Them: You have new Tzaangor units! Your preds and helbrutes and dreads and lords are all Thousand Sons! You have tons of units! The new Goat units are good! You can also play all Rubrics if you want!

It's like it completely goes over their head...

(I may be salty... got my one game in for the month at 1500 points and my opponent ended up bringing a Baneblade AND a Hellhammer to the match.....sigh, see you next month I guess)

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Yep, there's a few of us who have been saying this very thing for 30 pages now. But you have a couple loud people who want to disagree with you then assume they are right and you are wrong. It's not about what's right and wrong. It's about expectations and laziness.

I think there's a fair bit more nuance to it than that for the rational arguments.

There is also a lack of focus on the sons (marines or once marines) themselves. A HUGE lack. That is what people are angry about. Well, some people. And in all honesty this does feel like Tzeentch demonkin and not a thousand sons codex. And it all comes down to focus. If more of the book was focused on the marines proper and stratagems and point adjustments to go with that you would see alot less moaning. The fact is GW took this as a opportunity to sell more gors and used the fans of 1ksons to do so. And if you think the ten per heavy weapon is a typo or mistake, think again. It will be fixed but only after a set time has gone by. GW has gone full bore with the gors!

Table wrote:

There is also a lack of focus on the sons (marines or once marines) themselves. A HUGE lack. That is what people are angry about. Well, some people. And in all honesty this does feel like Tzeentch demonkin and not a thousand sons codex. And it all comes down to focus. If more of the book was focused on the marines proper and stratagems and point adjustments to go with that you would see alot less moaning. The fact is GW took this as a opportunity to sell more gors and used the fans of 1ksons to do so. And if you think the ten per heavy weapon is a typo or mistake, think again. It will be fixed but only after a set time has gone by. GW has gone full bore with the gors!

Yea, I still think this is a perception problem. People have co-opted things usable for Rubrics as only good for Tzaangors when that is not true and then creating fantasy lists that work on paper only.

Yes. I agree it would have been nice to see a SoT/Rubric only strat, but i'm exceedingly happy with what I can do with my army regardless.

People like to push the sales angle, but Tzaangors and Tz Daemonkin were one of the most popular sets in AoS and sold out hard. I can hardly see them getting the bump you suggest if/when the FAQ makes the adjustment in two weeks. Even with 1 in 5 is not a reason to NOT buy Tzaangors.

I think that I'm missing something here.
Didn't rubrics get access to full fledged sorcerers? (Except for smite). That is what I call a massive buff.

Why do you think that this is codex tzangors when the legion trait does nothing for them and instead makes a Psy heavy army a reality?

As I see it, Tsons can now make a really good MSU spam with rubrics and some SoT. In particular I see them really well due to that stratagem that helps summoning, I'll surely keep at least 400 points in reserve and play them like my lizards in AOS. List tailoring directly on the table works wonders in my experience. I actually see no reason to play tzangors, demons do everything better and I can choose everytime the ones I need more. The tzangor bomb is the only real use I see for them.

MSU spam? Well, let's do a differential...

CSM Thousand Sons - can access Alpha Legion -1 to hit, which compounds nicely with All is Dust to make them a real pain to shoot at; they can take Soureaper cannons in groups of five; and if you want to give them a spell, you can, for just 1cp - and you can choose from the hereticus discipline, which is top shelf and packed with low WC spells. If you're thinking of taking one or two MSUs then it'll cost you only 1 or 2 CPs to equip them with great and easily castable spells.

1kSons: can access +6" range on spells, which can be good too, depending on the spell. They can take Soulreapers only in groups of ten, which is hard to justify. They get native access to Change spells which is also good, so they can, uh, cast glamour of Tzeentch to get that -1 to hit back, 50% of the time! Or you can spend a CP too to pick up an Hereticus instead (but this nullifies their only advantage over their CSM countepart). Can be used to flesh out a batallion, which is a plus.

I know this brief analysis isolates the unit from the army, and you might make an argument that Rubrics synergise better with 1kSons lists (really only the Cabal strategem I think?). Call me silly if you want, but now that they've essentially given us two different entries for the same model, if I wanted to run Rubrics in a competitive matched play game, I think CSM Rubrics have a big edge over 1kSons Rubrics, which is a bit weird. I'm not complaining about the codex; I like it, and I like Tzaangor, and I'm going to have a lot of fun playing my Sons with it. But I think this needed pointing out, in response to your remark about running MSU Rubrics, Spoletta.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Table wrote:

There is also a lack of focus on the sons (marines or once marines) themselves. A HUGE lack. That is what people are angry about. Well, some people. And in all honesty this does feel like Tzeentch demonkin and not a thousand sons codex. And it all comes down to focus. If more of the book was focused on the marines proper and stratagems and point adjustments to go with that you would see alot less moaning. The fact is GW took this as a opportunity to sell more gors and used the fans of 1ksons to do so. And if you think the ten per heavy weapon is a typo or mistake, think again. It will be fixed but only after a set time has gone by. GW has gone full bore with the gors!

Yea, I still think this is a perception problem. People have co-opted things usable for Rubrics as only good for Tzaangors when that is not true and then creating fantasy lists that work on paper only.

Yes. I agree it would have been nice to see a SoT/Rubric only strat, but i'm exceedingly happy with what I can do with my army regardless.

People like to push the sales angle, but Tzaangors and Tz Daemonkin were one of the most popular sets in AoS and sold out hard. I can hardly see them getting the bump you suggest if/when the FAQ makes the adjustment in two weeks. Even with 1 in 5 is not a reason to NOT buy Tzaangors.

Id still like to actually get the codex in my hands and run a bunch of games before I declare anything one way or another. GW practices a form of planned obsolescence. And it is standard for every army, mostly. Like how heldrakes were the end all CSM unit last edition but are middling at best in 8th. Some models seem to skip this like Oblits which have stayed strong in every edition I have played. But overall they tend to nerf stuff that has already sold. And I understand why this is done to a extent. They need to sell models. Not saying that of in itself is bad, and this kinda takes care of power creep which haunts so many other gaming systems when selling new products. My beef, as it were, is that they went to far in this case. Gors are the overwhelming focus in this edition (from what I have seen in the video linked). Sure rubrics and SOTs got actual psykers, and thats great. But the one in ten heavy is not a mistake. It is to make gors look as attractive as possible. Once the initial hotness of new the new release dies down it will be FAQ'ed.

I still love the sons, in fluff and on the table. But that does not stop me from seeing how others are pissed over this release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I think that I'm missing something here.
Didn't rubrics get access to full fledged sorcerers? (Except for smite). That is what I call a massive buff.

Why do you think that this is codex tzangors when the legion trait does nothing for them and instead makes a Psy heavy army a reality?

As I see it, Tsons can now make a really good MSU spam with rubrics and some SoT. In particular I see them really well due to that stratagem that helps summoning, I'll surely keep at least 400 points in reserve and play them like my lizards in AOS. List tailoring directly on the table works wonders in my experience. I actually see no reason to play tzangors, demons do everything better and I can choose everytime the ones I need more. The tzangor bomb is the only real use I see for them.

I think MSU will be a liability for the sons since a peril will have a greater impact on a small unit than a large one. However one in five soulrippers are no joke. So its a risk/reward thing that will come down to the individual player.

grouchoben wrote:
MSU spam? Well, let's do a differential...

CSM Thousand Sons - can access Alpha Legion -1 to hit, which compounds nicely with All is Dust to make them a real pain to shoot at; they can take Soureaper cannons in groups of five; and if you want to give them a spell, you can, for just 1cp - and you can choose from the hereticus discipline, which is top shelf and packed with low WC spells. If you're thinking of taking one or two MSUs then it'll cost you only 1 or 2 CPs to equip them with great and easily castable spells.

1kSons: can access +6" range on spells, which can be good too, depending on the spell. They can take Soulreapers only in groups of ten, which is hard to justify. They get native access to Change spells which is also good, so they can, uh, cast glamour of Tzeentch to get that -1 to hit back, 50% of the time! Or you can spend a CP too to pick up an Hereticus instead (but this nullifies their only advantage over their CSM countepart). Can be used to flesh out a batallion, which is a plus.

I know this brief analysis isolates the unit from the army, and you might make an argument that Rubrics synergise better with 1kSons lists (really only the Cabal strategem I think?). Call me silly if you want, but now that they've essentially given us two different entries for the same model, if I wanted to run Rubrics in a competitive matched play game, I think CSM Rubrics have a big edge over 1kSons Rubrics, which is a bit weird. I'm not complaining about the codex; I like it, and I like Tzaangor, and I'm going to have a lot of fun playing my Sons with it. But I think this needed pointing out, in response to your remark about running MSU Rubrics, Spoletta.

They will not be two different entries after the FAQs. Csm rubrics will go to one in ten or Tsons rubrics will go to one in five.

Even without a cannon, it's a really good unit for 107 points.

Anyway, it's too soon to make the call, we need some games.

Agreed.

My biggest gripe with the codex is how it invalidates a large chunk of my 7th Ed. Thousand Sons army:

10 Terminators, 10 Possessed, 3 Obliterators, 3 Mutilators, a Chaos Lord on Disc and a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour.

I guess I could make a separate CSM/Index detatchment for them but...meh.

 nintura wrote:
Here's your rationale:

Us: It's Codex Thousand Sons. We'd have liked to have seen ANYTHING that would have improved how we can take Rubricae and different options for sorcerors, whether upgrades or different squads of units for pure Thousand Sons. We have no problems with Tzaangor, we'd just liked to have seen more for the reason we played the army in the first place

The single largest complaint about index tson was that the rubric's sorcerer was so weak compared to 7th, so that got buffed with new options and a legion trait. The same is true for exalted sorcerers.

If you weren't playing tson for the sorcerers, then yeah that's a bit strange. All a rubric is an empty suit of armor at a sorcerer's beck and call, no more a thousand son than a predator or daemon engine. The sorcerers were always the star, and this codex is far and away the best psychic codex released, except maybe for demons.

I suppose it's technically a step back from 7th where psychic powers literally broke the game, but going back to that is hardly ideal.

 MinscS2 wrote:
My biggest gripe with the codex is how it invalidates a large chunk of my 7th Ed. Thousand Sons army:

10 Terminators, 10 Possessed, 3 Obliterators, 3 Mutilators, a Chaos Lord on Disc and a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour.

I guess I could make a separate CSM/Index detatchment for them but...meh.

Well, to be honest, that army is not really fluff friendly as a TS list. Aside from the Lord on Disc you can still use and the Termis you can still use as well, none of the units are connected to TS, even opposing their background as I understand it. I mean, things like the Chaos lord entry without DR in the DG codex are silly, but no DG player actually expected all the Nurgle Bikers we bought in 6th/7th ed. to make the transition to a proper DG-codex.

Table wrote:


I think MSU will be a liability for the sons since a peril will have a greater impact on a small unit than a large one.

No easy way to brigade w/ Magnus, but his psychic rerolls will help casting a ton and guard perils. Block and tackle with spawn and mutalith where possible and the enlightened serve as a distraction from Magnus to a small degree.

[445] Magnus

[120] Exalted Sorc
[120] Exalted Sorc

[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics

[90] Shaman

[132] 4 Spawn
[153] 9 Enlightened, Bows
[153] 9 Enlightened, Bows

[150] Mutalith

 MinscS2 wrote:
My biggest gripe with the codex is how it invalidates a large chunk of my 7th Ed. Thousand Sons army:

10 Terminators, 10 Possessed, 3 Obliterators, 3 Mutilators, a Chaos Lord on Disc and a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour.

I guess I could make a separate CSM/Index detatchment for them but...meh.

eeer, none of these were TS units in 7th though...

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


That's because it's not, it is just tzeench deamonkin under a different name, I said quite a few pages back I was expecting the same bland formula that 8th has followed to continue with the new "thousand sons" codex, and I was right, we got some new strats, some new spells and warlord traits but like nearly every 8th codex it lacks character, but this isn't just a chaos problem, all the new books have this problem nearly.

I'm not sure I follow. I feel like this book has tons of character. Especially against other books.

1) Raw psychic power and the most spells of any book.
2) Warpflame Gargoyles which are quintessential TS back in a big way.
3) Tzaangors represented.
4) Chaos spawn shining bright, which has been traditionally a Tzeentch thing.

1. All 6 spells yes RAW magic power.
2. With a strat that you MIGHT use once per game.
3. They already were.
4. Yes Spawn the Beacon of TS when you ask people "What do you think of when you think Thousand Sons" almost everyone says Spawn almost noone says Rubrics.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
My biggest gripe with the codex is how it invalidates a large chunk of my 7th Ed. Thousand Sons army:

10 Terminators, 10 Possessed, 3 Obliterators, 3 Mutilators, a Chaos Lord on Disc and a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour.

I guess I could make a separate CSM/Index detatchment for them but...meh.

eeer, none of these were TS units in 7th though...

Tzeentch Termies were very common in 7th they were expensive but very durable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Table wrote:


I think MSU will be a liability for the sons since a peril will have a greater impact on a small unit than a large one.

No easy way to brigade w/ Magnus, but his psychic rerolls will help casting a ton and guard perils. Block and tackle with spawn and mutalith where possible and the enlightened serve as a distraction from Magnus to a small degree.

[445] Magnus

[120] Exalted Sorc
[120] Exalted Sorc

[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics
[107] 5 Rubrics

[90] Shaman

[132] 4 Spawn
[153] 9 Enlightened, Bows
[153] 9 Enlightened, Bows

[150] Mutalith

What happens when Magnus dies the first turn?

How will the army perform?

Wow. 30 pages, essentially boiling down to discussions about the name of the codex. You guys have me equally parts impressed and bemused, every time I check in here.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


1. All 6 spells yes RAW magic power.
2. With a strat that you MIGHT use once per game.
3. They already were.
4. Yes Spawn the Beacon of TS when you ask people "What do you think of when you think Thousand Sons" almost everyone says Spawn almost noone says Rubrics.

18 spells, but don't let that stop you from excluding things to make a point.
Building a list around buffing and healing a defiler and dropping warpflame as often as possible will be deadly.

The point was questioning the character of the book. Not what you think about it.

What happens when Magnus dies the first turn?

How will the army perform?

The same question applies to any Magnus reliant list. With 13 drops you should see enough of where their big guns are being placed and then stick Magnus into a corner turn one and fly/warp time in for when it's go time. I'd probably drop a squad for a couple groups of cultists to shield him from drops, too.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Table wrote:

There is also a lack of focus on the sons (marines or once marines) themselves. A HUGE lack. That is what people are angry about. Well, some people. And in all honesty this does feel like Tzeentch demonkin and not a thousand sons codex. And it all comes down to focus. If more of the book was focused on the marines proper and stratagems and point adjustments to go with that you would see alot less moaning. The fact is GW took this as a opportunity to sell more gors and used the fans of 1ksons to do so. And if you think the ten per heavy weapon is a typo or mistake, think again. It will be fixed but only after a set time has gone by. GW has gone full bore with the gors!

Yea, I still think this is a perception problem. People have co-opted things usable for Rubrics as only good for Tzaangors when that is not true and then creating fantasy lists that work on paper only.

Yes. I agree it would have been nice to see a SoT/Rubric only strat, but i'm exceedingly happy with what I can do with my army regardless.

People like to push the sales angle, but Tzaangors and Tz Daemonkin were one of the most popular sets in AoS and sold out hard. I can hardly see them getting the bump you suggest if/when the FAQ makes the adjustment in two weeks. Even with 1 in 5 is not a reason to NOT buy Tzaangors.

Tell me what the Shaman does? +1 to hit? Oh that goods! Tzaangors only

That's just a fantasy.

Mutalith, has 6 different abilities 2 mortal wound generators, and 4 CC buffs of one form or another. Because what I want is to have my Rubrics in CC woth thier 1 attack and AP- attack. No don't want to use that AP-2 bolter you paind 2 points for.

Thats just a fantasy.

All of our HQs have 1 aura, re-roll to hits of 1, which helps Rubrics get to a 77% hit ratio, pretty good. And Tzaangors get to a 97% hit ratio. Ohh...

The only thing that is a fantasy is thinking this Codex is for Thousand Sons.

Yup; in a vaccum those tzaangors look 100% great!

Until you realize that the edition that is defined by "hordes" means that lot of standard lists, come with very high volume fire power.

While the tzaangors are in fact a good unit, most definitely, D1 volume firepower (las guns, bolt guns, heavy bolters, reaper autocannons, anything with D1 and high volume) *will* tear up the squad.

Of which they will more then likely then lose a few more to morale.

Something to keep in mind when focusing so much on the tzaangors like you do.

Rubrics dont have the first issue, the 2+ save insures that. I dont know about you but when I field rubrics I also make it a point to have plenty of walkers and vehicles, those multi-damage weapons are going to have to pick their targets.

Tzaangors are great, but Rubricae have their place. Their uses dont go hand in hand really. despite both being troops. Though rubrics are far more surgical in use then our goats.

Another point that bares mentioning is that ... You do not always have the choice about being in combat, if the enemy player knows what he is doing he will see to that. (depending of course on a plethora of different variables)

I don't know how people can say with a straight face that Rubrics Marines have received 0 buffs.
Has Marmatag say many times, in 8th what makes or brokes a codex are traits and stratagems.

I have 3 friends that play craftworld Eldar in a very competitive scene, and they all run two units of 20 guardians each. Why? Because they can deepstrike them. If that stratagem didn't exist they wouldn't use those guardians, in their lifes. But just that stratagem makes them run two full units.

I'll wait and see what lists and combos come out of this Codex before agreein with the idea that is just Codex: Tzaangors and Friends. I'm very sure theres gonna be very competitive Tzaangors lists, but I believe theres space too, to rubric based competitive lists.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know how people can say with a straight face that Rubrics Marines have received 0 buffs.
Has Marmatag say many times, in 8th what makes or brokes a codex are traits and stratagems.

I have 3 friends that play craftworld Eldar in a very competitive scene, and they all run two units of 20 guardians each. Why? Because they can deepstrike them. If that stratagem didn't exist they wouldn't use those guardians, in their lifes. But just that stratagem makes them run two full units.

I'll wait and see what lists and combos come out of this Codex before agreein with the idea that is just Codex: Tzaangors and Friends. I'm very sure theres gonna be very competitive Tzaangors lists, but I believe theres space too, to rubric based competitive lists.

Well, all the new traits and stratagems buff the Tzaangors, is the problem. You can use Webway Strike and VOTLW on Tzaangors, who also got the cheapest fight twice stratagem in the game to their name which makes VOTLW more efficient on them than on our other units. Meanwhile Rubricae got a stratagem that maybe, if you're lucky, will do a mortal wound or two to a nearby unit. Or it might just do nothing.

If we had gotten something that worked on Inferno Boltguns/Combi-bolters specifically (a shoot twice stratagem? a fall-back-and-shoot stratagem? +1 damage stratagem?) then other than the soulreaper problem I'd have zero complaints with this dex. But, we didn't, so I have a pretty massive complaint. Compare with the Blood Angels codex, where stuff like Descent of Angels gets you REALLY EXCITED to run the jump pack assault units that Blood Angels are known for. What in this codex is supposed to get me excited to run Rubricae? Nothing. The only reason I'm even trying to find a way to make them work is because "Rubrics are cool" is the position that got me into the damned army in the first place.

Why in the hell would you ever take 5 man rubric squads....

Arachnofiend, you are using a general stratagems ,webway strike and veterans, as highly specific and therefore wrong example .Every codex has a version and all infantry ,including rubrics, in TS codex can use it.

edit add:
And then you wonder why the criticism of the TS dex in this thread is hard to take serious.