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Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, of course the 3 detachment limit is GW's fault. They suggest it in the rulebook. They likewise suggest a battlefield size of 6 feet by 4 feet, which is also an essentially universal standard even in casual play. They clearly balance around detachment limits as with the Tau Commander limitation. There are lots of even fairly casual players who will take it as a TFG kind of thing if you try to bring more than 3 detachments to a 2k game, and they do this because GW has put forward these rules as the appropriate way to play a fair game of 40k.

And, like, it's a good rule. It's weird to talk about it as if it's so terrible for, e.g., Tau players not to be able to bring unlimited Commanders as long as they bring 5 Fire Warriors for each one beyond 3. It just doesn't mesh well with this specific thing they're doing with Dark Eldar, and clearly the best fix here is to keep on enforcing a detachment limit while relaxing it for DE. Maybe DE Patrols don't count towards that limit, or count half, or whatever. It would be very useful if GW were to come out with a suggestion for this too, since that helps promote standardization.

The max 3 detachment at 2k points is a good rule. The "You can't duplicate detachments" isn't. I can see the appeal, for some armies having 3 batallions is extra cheap, so they will swim in Command Points... but those armies are already doing that with Brigades and Batallions.
The only detachments that gives you problems if you allow it to be spammed is the Supreme Command Detachment.

I dunno, 3 Patrol Detachments is about the size of a battalion, no? You get an extra command point and I'm sure you can spend 2000 points in their confines. If you want a Raiding Party, you have to play within those limitations.

Seems fine to me.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno, 3 Patrol Detachments is about the size of a battalion, no? You get an extra command point and I'm sure you can spend 2000 points in their confines. If you want a Raiding Party, you have to play within those limitations.

Seems fine to me.

The main issue it's not in the 3 patrol vs Batallion those are pretty even.

The Brigade vs 6 patrol can thorw up way more issues since the 6 patrol just require 6 HQ and 6 basic troops while the Brigade also forces you to take 3 Elite, Fast attack and Heavy support units.

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno, 3 Patrol Detachments is about the size of a battalion, no? You get an extra command point and I'm sure you can spend 2000 points in their confines. If you want a Raiding Party, you have to play within those limitations.

Seems fine to me.

The main issue it's not in the 3 patrol vs Batallion those are pretty even.

The Brigade vs 6 patrol can thorw up way more issues since the 6 patrol just require 6 HQ and 6 basic troops while the Brigade also forces you to take 3 Elite, Fast attack and Heavy support units.

Unless DE characters get a huge boost, that is not a problem.

Yeah, at present we have the least spammable characters around by a pretty large margin. Unless you're really spooked out by a guy with a S3 force sword at 80ish points.

tneva82 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The limit to detachments serves no point.

It was originally put forward to reduce spamming a single unit, but it fails in all formats due to the many different detachments. Most players can just use various detachments to spam the unit they want still in any tournament format.

There is no actual merit in limiting detachments, which is why the base rules don't have any limitations.

You mean no merit other than actually preventing some of the worst shenigans due to ensuring better balance.

Yep no merit at all.

You are wrong.

With 2k points you can take any faction and create a list to spam any unit with 3 detachments that the limit of detachments or repeat detachments does nothing to address.

Name one list that is OP that needs more than 3 detachments at 2k points. You won't be able to because with three detachments, even with not duplicating a detachment you can get 10+ of any slot- you will run out of points before you run out of slots for the unit you want to spam.

With the keyword system most buffs don't cross keywords so there is no merit in limiting number of detachments, there never has been in 8th edition .

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno, 3 Patrol Detachments is about the size of a battalion, no? You get an extra command point and I'm sure you can spend 2000 points in their confines. If you want a Raiding Party, you have to play within those limitations.

Seems fine to me.

The main issue it's not in the 3 patrol vs Batallion those are pretty even.

The Brigade vs 6 patrol can thorw up way more issues since the 6 patrol just require 6 HQ and 6 basic troops while the Brigade also forces you to take 3 Elite, Fast attack and Heavy support units.

Well if the limit stays as it is its not an issue?

This isn’t that difficult to use. The three patrol limit drukari special rule is all that is useful for tournaments. You will never be able to fit 6 patrols in a 2000 or less pt tournament (it’s an apoc bonus). You are also free to ignore the bonus and play whatever other detachment you want if you want to play ynnari for example. It completely sounds like a pure codex army bonus which is nice.

Furthermore if a tournament has NO duplicate detachment rule that needs to change as it’s just plain dumb under the current list building. If you really think there is a problem with duplicate command detachments then just limit command detachments (until Gw is finished limiting HQs to one per detachment like it seems they are doing.)

This isnt that big a deal!

Agreed - 3 patrol should be fine for most gamers.

Caviat not seen codex yet

gungo wrote:
This isn’t that difficult to use. The three patrol limit drukari special rule is all that is useful for tournaments. You will never be able to fit 6 patrols in a 2000 or less pt tournament (it’s an apoc bonus). You are also free to ignore the bonus and play whatever other detachment you want if you want to play ynnari for example. It completely sounds like a pure codex army bonus which is nice.

The big downside for tournaments will be that you can't use very much of the DE codex while also using Ynnari or Craftworld detachments, if you want traits on DE things. If you want to use both Reavers and Kabalites while also bringing in a Farseer for Doom or whatever, one of them isn't getting traits and the other is going in a Battalion with a duplicate HQ or else in a 1 CP Outrider. It becomes very hard to soup them. Which, fine, but it's certainly striking that this would put Eldar soup way behind Imperial and Chaos soup in terms of ease of combining multiple armies.

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:
This isn’t that difficult to use. The three patrol limit drukari special rule is all that is useful for tournaments. You will never be able to fit 6 patrols in a 2000 or less pt tournament (it’s an apoc bonus). You are also free to ignore the bonus and play whatever other detachment you want if you want to play ynnari for example. It completely sounds like a pure codex army bonus which is nice.

The big downside for tournaments will be that you can't use very much of the DE codex while also using Ynnari or Craftworld detachments, if you want traits on DE things. If you want to use both Reavers and Kabalites while also bringing in a Farseer for Doom or whatever, one of them isn't getting traits and the other is going in a Battalion with a duplicate HQ or else in a 1 CP Outrider. It becomes very hard to soup them. Which, fine, but it's certainly striking that this would put Eldar soup way behind Imperial and Chaos soup in terms of ease of combining multiple armies.

Man, if only we could get that on the rest of the game...

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:
This isn’t that difficult to use. The three patrol limit drukari special rule is all that is useful for tournaments. You will never be able to fit 6 patrols in a 2000 or less pt tournament (it’s an apoc bonus). You are also free to ignore the bonus and play whatever other detachment you want if you want to play ynnari for example. It completely sounds like a pure codex army bonus which is nice.

The big downside for tournaments will be that you can't use very much of the DE codex while also using Ynnari or Craftworld detachments, if you want traits on DE things. If you want to use both Reavers and Kabalites while also bringing in a Farseer for Doom or whatever, one of them isn't getting traits and the other is going in a Battalion with a duplicate HQ or else in a 1 CP Outrider. It becomes very hard to soup them. Which, fine, but it's certainly striking that this would put Eldar soup way behind Imperial and Chaos soup in terms of ease of combining multiple armies.

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
Becuase the write up specifically says they have thier own faction rules!
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!
Aeldari currently has an issue that space marines and chaos don’t have. Chaos/imperial soup has no extra bonus for mixing codexs other then auras. Aeldari has ynnari that adds another layer of bonuses that the codex by itself doesn’t give; except now pure dark eldar has a bonus for taking 3 dark eldar detachments and not souping.

 Galas wrote:
I don't think anybody here is giving GW grief. Quite the contrary, people is complaining about tournament house rules impacting Dark Eldar in a negative way.

Ding Ding Ding! This^

Nowhere in my posts did I direct any blame towards GW.

gungo wrote:

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!

My understanding is that the whole reason they're doing this Patrol thing is that a Coven and a Cult don't get their "chapter tactics" type rules if they share a detachment. So you can never have Reavers and Warriors in the same detachment and still get traits, because one is <Cult> and one is <Cabal>. That's been rumored and that's the impression I get from the community article. But of course this means that it's hard to use more than just a single sub-group of the DE codex unless you're doing 3 Patrols. You can readily bring the 1 CP elite detachments, but of course these are pretty undesirable and 2 of them would be a lot of points for not much CP. Battalions are nice for many armies but would require duplicating HQs for DE, since there's just one for each sub-group, and you can't fill the extra slots it gives you with another sub-group's units.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno, 3 Patrol Detachments is about the size of a battalion, no? You get an extra command point and I'm sure you can spend 2000 points in their confines. If you want a Raiding Party, you have to play within those limitations.

Seems fine to me.

Except they split the book in three meaning I need to flesh out a battalion with 1/3 my codex if I want to use any traits. Who knows maybe the traits are not worth that hassle but I would like to think they are worth taking, especially since it's the first time they will have ever existed.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:
This isn’t that difficult to use. The three patrol limit drukari special rule is all that is useful for tournaments. You will never be able to fit 6 patrols in a 2000 or less pt tournament (it’s an apoc bonus). You are also free to ignore the bonus and play whatever other detachment you want if you want to play ynnari for example. It completely sounds like a pure codex army bonus which is nice.

The big downside for tournaments will be that you can't use very much of the DE codex while also using Ynnari or Craftworld detachments, if you want traits on DE things. If you want to use both Reavers and Kabalites while also bringing in a Farseer for Doom or whatever, one of them isn't getting traits and the other is going in a Battalion with a duplicate HQ or else in a 1 CP Outrider. It becomes very hard to soup them. Which, fine, but it's certainly striking that this would put Eldar soup way behind Imperial and Chaos soup in terms of ease of combining multiple armies.

Man, if only we could get that on the rest of the game...

Look at me, crying tears for the competitiveness of Eldar soup, pluging cheap Dark Eldar units in their lists for Stratagems and the like.

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!

My understanding is that the whole reason they're doing this Patrol thing is that a Coven and a Cult don't get their "chapter tactics" type rules if they share a detachment. So you can never have Reavers and Warriors in the same detachment and still get traits, because one is <Cult> and one is <Cabal>. That's been rumored and that's the impression I get from the community article. But of course this means that it's hard to use more than just a single sub-group of the DE codex unless you're doing 3 Patrols. You can readily bring the 1 CP elite detachments, but of course these are pretty undesirable and 2 of them would be a lot of points for not much CP. Battalions are nice for many armies but would require duplicating HQs for DE, since there's just one for each sub-group, and you can't fill the extra slots it gives you with another sub-group's units.

The community post specifically says
“Each of these groups has its own set of warlord traits, FACTION RULES, and artefacts”
Faction rules seems to cover “chapter bonuses”

Aeldari currently has an issue that space marines and chaos don’t have. Chaos/imperial soup has no extra bonus for mixing codexs other then some HQ auras. Aeldari has ynnari that adds another layer of bonuses that the codex by itself doesn’t give; except now pure dark eldar has a bonus for taking 3 dark eldar detachments and not souping. You seem to think dark eldar is just a sub codex for ynnari.

gungo wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!

My understanding is that the whole reason they're doing this Patrol thing is that a Coven and a Cult don't get their "chapter tactics" type rules if they share a detachment. So you can never have Reavers and Warriors in the same detachment and still get traits, because one is <Cult> and one is <Cabal>. That's been rumored and that's the impression I get from the community article. But of course this means that it's hard to use more than just a single sub-group of the DE codex unless you're doing 3 Patrols. You can readily bring the 1 CP elite detachments, but of course these are pretty undesirable and 2 of them would be a lot of points for not much CP. Battalions are nice for many armies but would require duplicating HQs for DE, since there's just one for each sub-group, and you can't fill the extra slots it gives you with another sub-group's units.

The community post specifically says
“Each of these groups has its own set of warlord traits, FACTION RULES, and artefacts”
Faction rules seems to cover “chapter bonuses”

Aeldari currently has an issue that space marines and chaos don’t have. Chaos/imperial soup has no extra bonus for mixing codexs other then some HQ auras. Aeldari has ynnari that adds another layer of bonuses that the codex by itself doesn’t give; except now pure dark eldar has a bonus for taking 3 dark eldar detachments and not souping.

More accurately:

Ynnari is its own faction, with a very powerful special rule that you get on infantry and bikers. You trade out a different special rule (Battle Focus, PFP, Rising Crescendo) to get that bonus, AND you don't get faction traits (or stratagems, unless you bring another detachment that is not Ynnari to get them).

The issue is twofold:

1) The rule you trade away in all three cases is orders of magnitude less powerful than SfD

2) The issue of 'no faction traits' hasn't been much of an issue because Dark Eldar nor Harlequins have yet had faction traits, or specific strats.

Generally, a large number of models in a "ynnari" list have actually been pure Eldar, because post nerf you only really care about your one big shooty unit of reapers (the one that gets Word of the Pheonix'd) and your one big chargy unit of Shining Spears, and then you just fill out your detachment with cheap gak like DE warriors. Then the rest is an Alaitoc detachment to get strats and the -1 to hit trait on all your CWE stuff.

Ynnari is not some magical umbrella that instantly gets you all the faction bonuses and strats. It already loses you all of them, and gains the latter back if you bring in a second detachment to get them (similar to how you could get, say, Tide of Traitors into a Thousand Sons list by including a cheeky CSM detachment).

That sounds right because yynari encourages layers multiple detachments to gain the eldar starts and relics you lose out with a pure ynnari detachment.
also yynari doesn’t have its own codex yet either which may contain its own faction specific strats/relics as well.

The 3 patrol thing seems like a pretty elegant solution to me; 7 CP is about standard for any army that doesn't get special permission to game detachments like Guard does.

Can alloy of agony be used multiple times?

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!

My understanding is that the whole reason they're doing this Patrol thing is that a Coven and a Cult don't get their "chapter tactics" type rules if they share a detachment. So you can never have Reavers and Warriors in the same detachment and still get traits, because one is <Cult> and one is <Cabal>. That's been rumored and that's the impression I get from the community article. But of course this means that it's hard to use more than just a single sub-group of the DE codex unless you're doing 3 Patrols. You can readily bring the 1 CP elite detachments, but of course these are pretty undesirable and 2 of them would be a lot of points for not much CP. Battalions are nice for many armies but would require duplicating HQs for DE, since there's just one for each sub-group, and you can't fill the extra slots it gives you with another sub-group's units.

Yeah that's my understanding as well, supposedly trueborn and blood brides are gone.

Due to the many keywords in the Drukhari list this means you likely cannot mix coven, kabal, and wyche keywords in the same detachment and retain battle forged.

With the division of keywords and lack of units this results in kabal having no fast attack, wyches having no elite or heavy support, and coven having no fast attack. Which is really limiting to what you can take with only three detachments as Dark Eldar and keep your battle forged for faction rules. Likely more so if you play under 2K where the "recommended" number of detachments is 2.

They say it's a feature but it's likely the fix they came up with for the Drukhari keyword issue. They could have also made it so each detachment could have 1 coven, 1 kabal, and 1 wyche cult for keyword and retain battle forged.

 Niiai wrote:
Can alloy of agony be used multiple times?

As written, yes since it's pre game. I would expect it to get FAQ'd to one use only though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!

My understanding is that the whole reason they're doing this Patrol thing is that a Coven and a Cult don't get their "chapter tactics" type rules if they share a detachment. So you can never have Reavers and Warriors in the same detachment and still get traits, because one is <Cult> and one is <Cabal>. That's been rumored and that's the impression I get from the community article. But of course this means that it's hard to use more than just a single sub-group of the DE codex unless you're doing 3 Patrols. You can readily bring the 1 CP elite detachments, but of course these are pretty undesirable and 2 of them would be a lot of points for not much CP. Battalions are nice for many armies but would require duplicating HQs for DE, since there's just one for each sub-group, and you can't fill the extra slots it gives you with another sub-group's units.

Yeah that's my understanding as well, supposedly trueborn and blood brides are gone.

Due to the many keywords in the Drukhari list this means you likely cannot mix coven, kabal, and wyche keywords in the same detachment and retain battle forged.

With the division of keywords and lack of units this results in kabal having no fast attack, wyches having no elite or heavy support, and coven having no fast attack. Which is really limiting to what you can take with only three detachments as Dark Eldar and keep your battle forged for faction rules. Likely more so if you play under 2K where the "recommended" number of detachments is 2.

They say it's a feature but it's likely the fix they came up with for the Drukhari keyword issue. They could have also made it so each detachment could have 1 coven, 1 kabal, and 1 wyche cult for keyword and retain battle forged.

Yeah, it's looking like they went with pretty much the worst solution to a simple problem. It really should be tied to the Drukhari keyword instead of the indavidual Kabal, Cult and Coven keywords.

Kabal is in an even worse position because the entirety of our Elites options are now single characters that provide no benefit.

If you can have multiple warlords, and give them each a warlord trait, could that potentially mean three guy might EACH have the ability to regenerate command points? So, for example, I use a 1CP stratagem, then roll 3 dice (one for each warlord), and for each 5+ I get one back?

Obviously I don't know if those are available at all, let alone to every warlord.

Also, I wonder how slay the warlord will work with Dark Eldar. Would you get three extra points for killing them all, or just one?

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you can have multiple warlords, and give them each a warlord trait, could that potentially mean three guy might EACH have the ability to regenerate command points? So, for example, I use a 1CP stratagem, then roll 3 dice (one for each warlord), and for each 5+ I get one back?

Obviously I don't know if those are available at all, let alone to every warlord.

Also, I wonder how slay the warlord will work with Dark Eldar. Would you get three extra points for killing them all, or just one?

To your second question the Strategems calls out the other characters are only regarded as warlord for the traits, so they would not award slay the warlord as they are not regarded as a warlord for that.

Maybe they are planting the seeds for future Codex for Kabals, Wytch Cults and Hoemunculus Covens. And to be honest I can absolutely see that, Kabals and Covens are as similar as Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle... or heck, Space Marines and Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Etc...
They can absolutely be expanded to be their own thing.

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Imateria wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Can alloy of agony be used multiple times?

As written, yes since it's pre game. I would expect it to get FAQ'd to one use only though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

gungo wrote:

Have you read the codex?
Are you saying covens, cults and Kabals don’t have thier own “chapter” bonuses?
This reads to me as a pure codex bonus not a soup bonus. Ynnari has its own soup bonus!

My understanding is that the whole reason they're doing this Patrol thing is that a Coven and a Cult don't get their "chapter tactics" type rules if they share a detachment. So you can never have Reavers and Warriors in the same detachment and still get traits, because one is <Cult> and one is <Cabal>. That's been rumored and that's the impression I get from the community article. But of course this means that it's hard to use more than just a single sub-group of the DE codex unless you're doing 3 Patrols. You can readily bring the 1 CP elite detachments, but of course these are pretty undesirable and 2 of them would be a lot of points for not much CP. Battalions are nice for many armies but would require duplicating HQs for DE, since there's just one for each sub-group, and you can't fill the extra slots it gives you with another sub-group's units.

Yeah that's my understanding as well, supposedly trueborn and blood brides are gone.

Due to the many keywords in the Drukhari list this means you likely cannot mix coven, kabal, and wyche keywords in the same detachment and retain battle forged.

With the division of keywords and lack of units this results in kabal having no fast attack, wyches having no elite or heavy support, and coven having no fast attack. Which is really limiting to what you can take with only three detachments as Dark Eldar and keep your battle forged for faction rules. Likely more so if you play under 2K where the "recommended" number of detachments is 2.

They say it's a feature but it's likely the fix they came up with for the Drukhari keyword issue. They could have also made it so each detachment could have 1 coven, 1 kabal, and 1 wyche cult for keyword and retain battle forged.

Yeah, it's looking like they went with pretty much the worst solution to a simple problem. It really should be tied to the Drukhari keyword instead of the indavidual Kabal, Cult and Coven keywords.

Kabal is in an even worse position because the entirety of our Elites options are now single characters that provide no benefit.

Maybe they are planting the seeds for future Codex for Kabals, Wytch Cults and Hoemunculus Covens. And to be honest I can absolutely see that, Kabals and Covens are as similar as Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle... or heck, Space Marines and Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Etc...
They can absolutely be expanded to be their own thing.

I wouldn't expect that, but I would expect new units and stuff like that potentially.

blaktoof wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you can have multiple warlords, and give them each a warlord trait, could that potentially mean three guy might EACH have the ability to regenerate command points? So, for example, I use a 1CP stratagem, then roll 3 dice (one for each warlord), and for each 5+ I get one back?

Obviously I don't know if those are available at all, let alone to every warlord.

Also, I wonder how slay the warlord will work with Dark Eldar. Would you get three extra points for killing them all, or just one?

To your second question the Strategems calls out the other characters are only regarded as warlord for the traits, so they would not award slay the warlord as they are not regarded as a warlord for that.

If Dark Eldar could have many different ways to regenerate CP's, heck they could even have wargear to do it too, then I could see them being the anti-Custodes army. As in, they have almost limitless access to Strategems, and depend heavily on their use to make their units optimal. With

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you can have multiple warlords, and give them each a warlord trait, could that potentially mean three guy might EACH have the ability to regenerate command points? So, for example, I use a 1CP stratagem, then roll 3 dice (one for each warlord), and for each 5+ I get one back?

Obviously I don't know if those are available at all, let alone to every warlord.

This seems extremely unlikely. It's just an obviously terrible thing to allow. I would bet that, like in CA, they all have different traits to choose from and perhaps only the Archon can take Grand Strategist.

What was that 3rd edition piece of wargear that ate psychers? You opened the box and it went out and gimped the closest psychic guy. I haven't gotten my DE out in a LONG while, but I hope that that specific item makes a return. I used to have fun with it.