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The problem with IG isn't just that their units are super cost-effective compared to other factions, they also have access to some of the best strategems, tons of buffs and extra's like orders and regiment bonusses on everything.

Add to that their huge pool of unit choices and the fact that their "strength" (cheap quantity) is rewarded at every turn by the 8th edition rules.

The IG codex is really awesome and their internal design is pretty sweet, but it's overall power came out way too high. You could play it without orders and/or regiment bonusses and it would still be great. The nerfs fixed some issues, but we're not quite there yet.

So after a few days of voting the top 20 are:

1. Guilliman
2. Dark reapers
3. Magnus
4. Mortarion
5. Celestine
6. Imperial guard infantry squads
7. Baneblade Chassis Tank
8. Manticores / Basilisk
9. Hemlock wraithfighter
10. Leman russ
11. Scions
12. Genestealers
13. Khorne berserkers
14. Razorback
15. Stormraven, stormhawk or stormtalon
16 Shining spears
17. Obliterators
18. Mortar teams
19. Hellblasters
Joint 20. Kastellans and Tau Commander

If it's of any interest to people, here were the top 20 from the last thread I made on this (just after the space marine codex dropped near the start of 8th)

1) Guilliman
2) conscripts
3) Stormraven
4) Brimstone horrors
5) tempestus scions
6) Celestine
7) Razorbacks
8) Magnus
9) Tau commander
10) ork boys
11) Imperial knights
12) genestealer
13) manticores / basilisks
14) kastellan robots
15) Belisarius cawl
16) taurox prime
17) daemon prince
18) baneblade variants
19) Harlequins
20) khorne berserkers

Surprisingly, despite a small nerf since the last poll, celestine has actually risen from 6th to 5th place. Just as a one off thing, that says something good for game balance.I think. It's surprising how little this list has changed though with all the codexes dropping and chapter approved changing things up too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
240 points for more models than my entire army of primaris infantry at 2000 points? GTFO.

Comparing an arbitrary amount of naked infantry with no context to the number of heavy infantry in a composed army is what we're gonna go with here?

Martel732 wrote:Spoken like an IG player.

"Everything's fine here, move along."

Manticores are still too cheap. 4 ppm is too cheap for a model with 5+ armor. Basilisks are too cheap. Russes are too cheap. Mortar teams are too cheap. Scions are still too cheap. Shall I go on?

And IG infantry is powerful because it exists. They don't need buffs or upgrades or auras. Just stand there and win the game.

Martel732 wrote:There is no infantry comparable to guardsmen. That's the problem. There is no artillery comparable to IG artillery. There are no psykers comparable to your psykers. There are few tanks comparable to the Russ. Hell, Bullgryns are better at CC than my BA.

Yeah, and Battlecannon Russ tanks are better tank hunters than Quadlas predators, and Mortarian just dies like clockwork to Manticores that should be 200pts that can never be retaliated against because theres always an effective screen in place and LoS blocking terrain available right where its needed, and Guardsmen should be 7ppm, etc every IG unit outclasses everything everyone else has.

These things have been raised and debated in other threads, often in considerable detail, and shown that they arent anywhere near what is being portrayed.

I'm all on board with making changes to indirect fire weapons in general, I think the Catachan doctrine is a wee bit too abusable when paired with blast weapons, the Shadowsword is overgunned, etc, but when we get things like "a 5+ armor save makes guardsmen OP" or "Russ tanks are too cheap" (despite most comparisons to equivalents not showing such in multiple threads), or that Stormtroopers, after already taking at least 4 distinct nerfs to transports/weapons/command elements, are still too cheap, it makes it hard to take as seriously.

I'm all on board with making changes to indirect fire weapons in general, I think the Catachan doctrine is a wee bit too abusable when paired with blast weapons, the Shadowsword is overgunned, etc, but when we get things like "a 5+ armor save makes guardsmen OP" or "Russ tanks are too cheap" (despite most comparisons to equivalents not showing such in multiple threads), or that Stormtroopers, after already taking at least 4 distinct nerfs to transports/weapons/command elements, are still too cheap, it makes it hard to take as seriously.

I agree, but also understand where those things are coming from. IG are so much better at pretty much everything then most armies that it is hard to pinpoint where the problem lies. Hence every comparison creates another complaint.

I do think GW is doing the right thing about it tho, small point changes (except FW ) over time and rule changes one by one.

Sedraxis wrote:
The problem with IG isn't just that their units are super cost-effective compared to other factions, they also have access to some of the best strategems, tons of buffs and extra's like orders and regiment bonusses on everything.

Add to that their huge pool of unit choices and the fact that their "strength" (cheap quantity) is rewarded at every turn by the 8th edition rules.

The IG codex is really awesome and their internal design is pretty sweet, but it's overall power came out way too high. You could play it without orders and/or regiment bonusses and it would still be great. The nerfs fixed some issues, but we're not quite there yet.

Ig was already the best army in the game before it's codex came out. People seem to have forgotten that.

Sedraxis wrote:

I'm all on board with making changes to indirect fire weapons in general, I think the Catachan doctrine is a wee bit too abusable when paired with blast weapons, the Shadowsword is overgunned, etc, but when we get things like "a 5+ armor save makes guardsmen OP" or "Russ tanks are too cheap" (despite most comparisons to equivalents not showing such in multiple threads), or that Stormtroopers, after already taking at least 4 distinct nerfs to transports/weapons/command elements, are still too cheap, it makes it hard to take as seriously.

I agree, but also understand where those things are coming from. IG are so much better at pretty much everything then most armies that it is hard to pinpoint where the problem lies. Hence every comparison creates another complaint.

I do think GW is doing the right thing about it tho, small point changes (except FW ) over time and rule changes one by one.

This is basically right.

It's like filling out an old D&D character sheet. You only had so many points to spend. You can't buy up strength, and also vitality, to high levels. Guard can do both. That's the problem. You could pinpoint a few units for adjustment, but really it's a design flaw with the army.

Across the board they need damage reduction or an equivalent points increase.
Across the board they need reduced survivability or an equivalent points increase.

Both of those statements are true, but not necessarily true together.

Guard are in a really bad place, because they invalidate quite a few armies just by existing. That's not good for the game. At all.

IG still needs some nerfs, mostly an across the board points increase.

Someone once calculated here that on average only a s2 ap- weapon deals more points of damage to MEQ then GEQ. So that's the biggest design flaw of 8th edition right there.

Matched play should disallow imperium (and maybe Chaos/Aeldari/ynnari) as sole faction keywords since it just invalidates so much. Have a low model weakness in you imperium force? just add a guard detachment it'll fix that up real quick.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Spoken like an IG player.

"Everything's fine here, move along."

Manticores are still too cheap. 4 ppm is too cheap for a model with 5+ armor. Basilisks are too cheap. Russes are too cheap. Mortar teams are too cheap. Scions are still too cheap. Shall I go on?

And IG infantry is powerful because it exists. They don't need buffs or upgrades or auras. Just stand there and win the game.

Spoken like a true salt shaker. "Everything is too cheap. Nerf it all"

Better nerf conscripts and commissars again, just to play it safe.

The problem is guardsmen are currently causing a race to the bottom. You either bring them up, or absolutely everything else down. There is very little in the game that is actually worth shooting at guardsmen when viewed through the lense of cost for effect, even weapons ostensibly designed for clearing hordes, and those few things are all equally cheap models with high volumes of fire. (Pink horrors in units of 20+, cultists, other guardsmen, deep striking flamers of tzeentch)

Even at 5ppm guard would still be worth it, because of a few factors: the flattened wound chart makes them almost 33% more effective vs T4, while S4 shooting back at them became 33% LESS effective since they now actually get an armor save. having less of a save and more wounds per point is incredibly valuable in an edition where it now requires S6 to wound t3 on 2s. The horde clearing abilities of heavy bolters and heavy flamers, previously the 'gold standard' for shooting at GEQ, not only got more expensive themselves, but became similarly 33% less effective because of the introduction of rend mechanics. It gets even worse because of the HF no longer ignoring cover.

Basically, guard got the good end of all the core rules changes, and while everyone else got worse relative to shooting at them, they got better at shooting back, and additionally can now actually leverage embedded special and heavy weapons without giving up any firepower at all. Marines didn't change in base cost, most weapons got more expensive. Guard got cheaper, their weapons got cheaper.

The above pretty clearly shows why they need a cost bump, and I say that as someone who likes seeing guard in use and play, right now they are simply too strong because of the unique ability to simply take more stuff in an edition that favors he who rolls more dice




On the subject of dark reapers, they are slightly undercosted, but even if they were bumped by 5ppm would still see play, because of the incredible meta-warping effects of negative hit modifiers. The reason DRs are getting spammed is because of all the different ways things can get -1 or more to hit, and because they can get this themselves it becomes a circular problem. Yet the -1 to hit has to be a thing because of guard-style shooting.

Solution: bump IG by a small value until a balance is reached (not big hammer nerfs), and remove as much of the army wide -1 as possible. Both were equally terrible mistakes

Oh anopther problem is that there is always a chance those guardsman can hurt you with their flashlights so that should be taken into account and it currently isn't properly yet.

As a whole tough I am a fun of this design principle, makes for more fun games and less I might as well not bother unpacking my army.

" and shown that they arent anywhere near what is being portrayed. "

Have they, though? Battle cannon Russ might be slightly inferior at AT compared to quadlas pred, but its better in every other phase of the game. Defense, anti-infantry, and benefits from regiments. So yeah, I think Russes are slightly too cheap.

And yeah, 5+ armor saves on a 4 ppm model is uncalled for due to how this game scales.

"every IG unit outclasses everything everyone else has. "

That's actually not too far off. Because cheaper is better in 8th.

 Earth127 wrote:
Oh anopther problem is that there is always a chance those guardsman can hurt you with their flashlights so that should be taken into account and it currently isn't properly yet.

Oh they absolutely can hurt you! A guardsman with FRFSRF will cause same amount of wounds to a marine, than amarine firing a bolter at another marine. Except the marine costs over three times as much. Even if you account the cost of the commander, the lasgun guardsmen are 2,4 times more effective at killing marines than same points worth of bolter marines are. And it the target unit is guardsmen too, then the IG gets relatively even better at killing them compared to the marines. It's pretty crazy.

Solution: bump IG by a small value until a balance is reached (not big hammer nerfs), and remove as much of the army wide -1 as possible. Both were equally terrible mistakes

Exalted. I said the same thing in a post months back. Army wide -1 to hit is literally insane. Plus infantry squads being the most problematic of the to lowly costed infantry need to start the nerf train to achieve game balance.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no infantry comparable to guardsmen. That's the problem. There is no artillery comparable to IG artillery. There are no psykers comparable to your psykers. There are few tanks comparable to the Russ. Hell, Bullgryns are better at CC than my BA.

Actually I think gaunts are quite comparable to guardsmen, at least of you talk about the blobs and not the weapon teams. Jorm has 5+ leviatan has 6+ 6+++. 40 points for a screen. Fearless. Or you cqn go on the offense with devilgaunts, posible out of a transport.

I don't wanne draw to much atension to them. Would probably stil play them at 5 point base. (Although gargoyles are 6, so they would be better as a screen.)

Gaunts cant take heavy weapons. Nids can always kill infantery, tanks, needs more effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the op. With pool having options added late in the vote I would start a new pool for better data.

Dark reapers at 2nd place is an exaggeration made by frustrated space marines players. Deepstriking scions with plasmas are way more broken.

Dark reapers are quite powerful of course but still T3 dudes that are not cheap at all. All the other units in the top 10 are quite tough to kill instead, including guardsmen that are also T3 but undercosted. And they're part on an army that isn't overpowered at all.

I was dubious about including Guilliman, but my other choices are Alpha Legion Cultists (they slaughter anything T5 and lower given the right support), Primaris Psykers (exceptionally cheap choice of smite, especially after the tripling or so of the Malefic Lord's points), Dark Reapers for clearing screens, and Mortar Teams (output vs. price).

Obliterators, Noise Marines, Leviathans, Magnus, Mortarion, the humble Guardsman, plasma-spam Scions, Khorne Berzerkers, Celestine, LRBT, Fiends of Slaanesh, and the not included Triple Predator Annihilator (or quadruple) and Chaos Sorcerer are honourable mentions. I also have a soft spot for Warp Talons, especially against IG.

Brimstone Horrors shouldn't be on the list anymore.

 DoomMouse wrote:
So after a few days of voting the top 20 are:

1. Guilliman
2. Dark reapers
3. Magnus
4. Mortarion
5. Celestine
6. Imperial guard infantry squads
7. Baneblade Chassis Tank
8. Manticores / Basilisk
9. Hemlock wraithfighter
10. Leman russ
11. Scions
12. Genestealers
13. Khorne berserkers
14. Razorback
15. Stormraven, stormhawk or stormtalon
16 Shining spears
17. Obliterators
18. Mortar teams
19. Hellblasters
Joint 20. Kastellans and Tau Commander

If it's of any interest to people, here were the top 20 from the last thread I made on this (just after the space marine codex dropped near the start of 8th)

1) Guilliman
2) conscripts
3) Stormraven
4) Brimstone horrors
5) tempestus scions
6) Celestine
7) Razorbacks
8) Magnus
9) Tau commander
10) ork boys
11) Imperial knights
12) genestealer
13) manticores / basilisks
14) kastellan robots
15) Belisarius cawl
16) taurox prime
17) daemon prince
18) baneblade variants
19) Harlequins
20) khorne berserkers

Surprisingly, despite a small nerf since the last poll, celestine has actually risen from 6th to 5th place. Just as a one off thing, that says something good for game balance.I think. It's surprising how little this list has changed though with all the codexes dropping and chapter approved changing things up too.

Excellent, exalted!

 Blackie wrote:
Dark reapers at 2nd place is an exaggeration made by frustrated space marines players. Deepstriking scions with plasmas are way more broken.

Dark reapers are quite powerful of course but still T3 dudes that are not cheap at all. All the other units in the top 10 are quite tough to kill instead, including guardsmen that are also T3 but undercosted. And they're part on an army that isn't overpowered at all.

T3 doesn't matter in 8th.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dark reapers at 2nd place is an exaggeration made by frustrated space marines players. Deepstriking scions with plasmas are way more broken.

Dark reapers are quite powerful of course but still T3 dudes that are not cheap at all. All the other units in the top 10 are quite tough to kill instead, including guardsmen that are also T3 but undercosted. And they're part on an army that isn't overpowered at all.

T3 doesn't matter in 8th.

Um, yes it does. Vs T3, most weapons increase wound rolls needed by 16-17%. S4 needs 3s instead of 4s, S6/7 needs 2s instead of 3s. It is only S5 and 8+ that doesn't care about T3/T4. Considering in prior editions S6+ didn't care whether a unit was T3/T4, I think you can make an argument that being T4 matters MORE in 8th than in prior editions.

What you are thinking of is the difference between S3 and S4, which I agree is largely irrelevant in 8th (except against T6/7, which is the majority of MCs and vehicles).

-

 Earth127 wrote:

Matched play should disallow imperium (and maybe Chaos/Aeldari/ynnari) as sole faction keywords since it just invalidates so much. Have a low model weakness in you imperium force? just add a guard detachment it'll fix that up real quick.

This is a problem with the Guard being too good more than the Imperium keyword itself. Personally, the whole separation of Guard and Marines has always been a big disconnect for me. I'd hate to see that link go, though I could do without 350 point Brigades.

I'd put Celestine at the top of the list tbh. 14 effective wounds of character-protected 2+/4+ with regenning meatshields, a flurry of attacks that makes most characters jealous, and her absolutely zany do-whatever-she-wants start of turn ability... She could go up 100 points tomorrow and I'd still call her good.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dark reapers at 2nd place is an exaggeration made by frustrated space marines players. Deepstriking scions with plasmas are way more broken.

Dark reapers are quite powerful of course but still T3 dudes that are not cheap at all. All the other units in the top 10 are quite tough to kill instead, including guardsmen that are also T3 but undercosted. And they're part on an army that isn't overpowered at all.

T3 doesn't matter in 8th.

Um, yes it does. Vs T3, most weapons increase wound rolls needed by 16-17%. S4 needs 3s instead of 4s, S6/7 needs 2s instead of 3s. It is only S5 and 8+ that doesn't care about T3/T4. Considering in prior editions S6+ didn't care whether a unit was T3/T4, I think you can make an argument that being T4 matters MORE in 8th than in prior editions.

What you are thinking of is the difference between S3 and S4, which I agree is largely irrelevant in 8th (except against T6/7, which is the majority of MCs and vehicles).

-

It doesn't matter for dark reapers, certainly.

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter for dark reapers, certainly.

Because....reasons? If it makes you fell any better, I don't use Reapers because every time I've tried them, they die fast even with buffs. Combine with the fact that that aren't very mobile and you have to proxy the models anyway (because GW stopped making them for some reason*) and it is pretty much an easy decision for me to leave them out of my lists.



*finecast is not a valid media for miniatures, therefore any model that is currently produced in finecast may as well be out of production.

-

Because the reapers aced everything before it can exploit the t3 as if it were exploitable when the unit is in cover rerolling saves.

T3 doesn't matter when you have a 2+ save, or you're hiding behind LOS, with the ability to move into view, shoot, and then move back out of LOS. Also, you have Tempest Launchers, which are really good.

Reapers are so good. So incredibly good.

Do you think people bring 30 reapers to the table because they aren't balls out awesomesauce? Oh look a swiss army knife unit that is very protectable and has amazing synergy with everything in my codex. I should bring none of this.

 Marmatag wrote:
T3 doesn't matter when you have a 2+ save, or you're hiding behind LOS, with the ability to move into view, shoot, and then move back out of LOS. Also, you have Tempest Launchers, which are really good.

So presumably you don't have problem with your eldar opponents having T4 dark reapers? After all it doesn't matter do they have T3 or T4...

Functionally, it wouldn't matter much. Bring the cost for their other abilities in line and they can have T4 for free. 3+ armor is so leaky outside of cover that the T3/T4 thing is really meaningless.

 Marmatag wrote:
T3 doesn't matter when you have a 2+ save, or you're hiding behind LOS, with the ability to move into view, shoot, and then move back out of LOS. Also, you have Tempest Launchers, which are really good.

Reapers are so good. So incredibly good.

Do you think people bring 30 reapers to the table because they aren't balls out awesomesauce? Oh look a swiss army knife unit that is very protectable and has amazing synergy with everything in my codex. I should bring none of this.

I lol'd.

Surely reapers aren't fun for Eldar players either? I know what it's like to have an auto include unit and it sucks. It limits list design and kills any possible interesting choices.

This is why Guard are so bizarre, it's not just infantry or leman russes or scions that are broken by themselves. Arguably they (and more) are very strong relative to other codexes' units. If a new player picks up Guard they can throw a relatively competitive list without thinking about it. This is unique. No other faction has such good internal balance and external strength.

In truth I do understand, but Eldar were dominating as Ynaari before and after the nerf to Soulburst. And we don't know what codex eldar would look like without OP dark reapers. I contend they would still be viable, because reapers aren't the only good unit, just so undercosted that is all you'll see.

Eldar are solid without them, but then they are cast down below the ranks of the IG. Eldar, like marines, have no effective way to clear the guardsmen. At least not in time.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar are solid without them, but then they are cast down below the ranks of the IG. Eldar, like marines, have no effective way to clear the guardsmen. At least not in time.

Eldar absolutely do.

Deep strike in 20 guardians and clear chaff like a boss. 160 points for 40 shots hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, with a rend on 6s. (If you were Ulthwe you could make them hit on 2s).

Meanwhile, everything else stays out of LOS, or laughs as Alaitoc in cover.

That's 160 pts of guardians to kill 40 pts of spastic losers. You won't be able to project past the first squad with 12" guns.

You can't get out of LoS vs IG.