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Brian888 wrote:

demontalons wrote:
I don’t see a problem with tzaangors per se it’s more a case of why is there no stratagem for rubrics like there is for tzaangors. One stratagem and I think most people feel fine. Even if the strat was something like what the enlightened get

2cp for every 6 rolled by a unit of rubrics in the shooting phase that round automatically wounds. Bam simple easy and really boosts the strength of the sons.

Or, 1-2 CP to let a unit of Rubrics apply their All is Dust rule to multi-wound weapons until the end of the round. Tank lascannon blasts with your face.

I also think they should have this rule. Or 1-2 cp for warp bolters etc to go up to damage 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How many points is a TS daemon prince? More than csm right? Even with no wings

AFAIK same price, 180 with wings.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

I would have liked that a lot. Make it something you can declare after your opponent has chosen to shot like the Night Lords stratagem so your opponent is stuck using at least some plasma against a rubric squad with a 4++.

This. This would be amazing and perfectly in line with the Tzeentch tag line of suddenly shifting things according to plan.

I know it probably won't become a thing, but I put it into FAQ anyway.

Nvs wrote:
On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.

Thinking of this as a cash-grab misses the point a bit. GW's in the process of rapidly releasing codices for every army, which means most armies aren't getting expansions of their model range in conjunction with their book. Their focus is (rightly, I believe) on getting every army up to a playable standard as quickly as possible, peppered with just a few "full treatment" releases. And in spite of that, they still seem to be genuinely trying to give new options to armies when possible (like grand master nemesis dreadknights in grey knights, space marine flyers in dark angels, etc.). In that regard, thousand sons (with their penchant for sorcery, association with Tzeentch, and established link to tzaangors) presented them a unique opportunity to actually add some new units to the game by porting models in from fantasy battle/Age of Sigmar, so they took it. Sure, they knew it would help them sell some models, but is it so hard to believe they were trying to give fans something exciting within the limitations of the task before them? Would people have preferred to basically just get the index entries reprinted with a few tweaks for balance, but otherwise nothing new? Or an elite version of rubric marines in another battlefield role, with an extra ability and maybe a few statlne buffs, but no unique equipment options? Because I think those were the alternatives. Thousand sons got a proper launch with five brand new kits a year and a half ago, so there was never any chance we were getting new models with this book. I understand being a little frustrated that much of the focus is on the new stuff, which isn't the heart and soul of the faction, and there definitely should have been some strategem exclusively for rubric marines, but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff? The more traditional thousand sons stuff still got a whole lot better with all the access to spells, relics, and stratagem, and is frankly still much of what I'm excited to play.

Nvs wrote:
No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.

I think anyone who expected new 1KSons models is quite naive.

It has been clear right from the get go that there are two types of Codex release this edition:

1. Lesser Codex - the model line already exists, so they get a book, cards, dice and maybe a token new miniature release.
2. Greater Codex - the model line does not exist, so they get a book, cards, dice, and their full range of new models.

Custodes, Death Guard and Primaris Marines fall into that second category. Everything else falls into that first category. Chaos Daemons and 1KSons got a tiny bit more simply by porting over Fantasy models, but nevertheless they are lesser Codices who don't really get anything new.

Please note that when I say 'lesser' and 'greater', I'm not saying that in terms of worth. The Craftworld Eldar Codex isn't a 'lesser' Codex than, say, the Death Guard Codex. Instead I mean lesser in terms of resources dedicated to its release. The Blood Angels already have their miniature line, so releasing anything outside of a token HQ isn't necessary. Custodes on the other hand have 1 box of 5 infantry, so doing them as a full release requires a greater use of resources to give them new kits to go with their release.

Like it or not, 1KSons got their release towards the end of 7th. They got their new kits, the first plastic 1KSons kits ever made, and that's it. If it'd be Death Guard that came first then you'd've seen 1KSons getting a big release with lots of new kits and Death Guard getting a 'lesser' Codex this time around.

1KSons players were never going to get new models this time around, just as Tyranids, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't get new models (outside of token single releases).

Benn Roe wrote:

Nvs wrote:
On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.

Thinking of this as a cash-grab misses the point a bit. GW's in the process of rapidly releasing codices for every army, which means most armies aren't getting expansions of their model range in conjunction with their book. Their focus is (rightly, I believe) on getting every army up to a playable standard as quickly as possible, peppered with just a few "full treatment" releases. And in spite of that, they still seem to be genuinely trying to give new options to armies when possible (like grand master nemesis dreadknights in grey knights, space marine flyers in dark angels, etc.). In that regard, thousand sons (with their penchant for sorcery, association with Tzeentch, and established link to tzaangors) presented them a unique opportunity to actually add some new units to the game by porting models in from fantasy battle/Age of Sigmar, so they took it. Sure, they knew it would help them sell some models, but is it so hard to believe they were trying to give fans something exciting within the limitations of the task before them? Would people have preferred to basically just get the index entries reprinted with a few tweaks for balance, but otherwise nothing new? Or an elite version of rubric marines in another battlefield role, with an extra ability and maybe a few statlne buffs, but no unique equipment options? Because I think those were the alternatives. Thousand sons got a proper launch with five brand new kits a year and a half ago, so there was never any chance we were getting new models with this book. I understand being a little frustrated that much of the focus is on the new stuff, which isn't the heart and soul of the faction, and there definitely should have been some strategem exclusively for rubric marines, but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff? The more traditional thousand sons stuff still got a whole lot better with all the access to spells, relics, and stratagem, and is frankly still much of what I'm excited to play.

Lets assume your correct and they are only trying to release codexs

Then why add any models to any line? It's faster to take the models you have and make the most of those THEN start moving towards a complete codex.

Why release Custodes and a bunch of new models?

Why have collectors editions stuff?

Benn Roe wrote:
but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff?

Yes, Yes I can. 22 strats, not one of them geared towards keeping rubrics alive. Do you honestly think this is not our "full treatment"?

This is it man we are going to get and FAQ in few weeks and will not hear anything about TS for years probably. They can't drop the Rubrics points, becuase 20 man squads would cost too little, they can't buff the sorcs up to full it will make min squads too expensive, they wont pull the SOS or the AS out of the squads and make them independent units, either cheap HQs or Elites because the boxes. Even though that would be super easy add 2 units which were TS and give you the ability to create a new mechanic.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Lets assume your correct and they are only trying to release codexs

Then why add any models to any line? It's faster to take the models you have and make the most of those THEN start moving towards a complete codex.

Why release Custodes and a bunch of new models?

Why have collectors editions stuff?

None of these are counter arguments to what he said.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nvs wrote:
No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.

I think anyone who expected new 1KSons models is quite naive.

It has been clear right from the get go that there are two types of Codex release this edition:

1. Lesser Codex - the model line already exists, so they get a book, cards, dice and maybe a token new miniature release.
2. Greater Codex - the model line does not exist, so they get a book, cards, dice, and their full range of new models.

Custodes, Death Guard and Primaris Marines fall into that second category. Everything else falls into that first category. Chaos Daemons and 1KSons got a tiny bit more simply by porting over Fantasy models, but nevertheless they are lesser Codices who don't really get anything new.

Please note that when I say 'lesser' and 'greater', I'm not saying that in terms of worth. The Craftworld Eldar Codex isn't a 'lesser' Codex than, say, the Death Guard Codex. Instead I mean lesser in terms of resources dedicated to its release. The Blood Angels already have their miniature line, so releasing anything outside of a token HQ isn't necessary. Custodes on the other hand have 1 box of 5 infantry, so doing them as a full release requires a greater use of resources to give them new kits to go with their release.

Like it or not, 1KSons got their release towards the end of 7th. They got their new kits, the first plastic 1KSons kits ever made, and that's it. If it'd be Death Guard that came first then you'd've seen 1KSons getting a big release with lots of new kits and Death Guard getting a 'lesser' Codex this time around.

1KSons players were never going to get new models this time around, just as Tyranids, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't get new models (outside of token single releases).

I didn't expect new models.

But as has been outlined in this thread my myself and others, expanded rules for Thousand Sons themed units using pre-existing models would have been possible. Especially when it should have been obvious that expansive Tzaangor selection was going to be met with mixed reviews.

Hell I would have settled for a mention of new things coming "soon", or at least ideas on how they plan to expand in the future. Instead it's like you (the rubrics) have your parents (gw) tell you they are going to get you a pet, you're thinking a puppy (more Thousand Sons Legion), and they get you a kitten (Tzaangors). Now you're happy with a kitten, but then they are trying to tell you it's the best thing ever and you'll never love anything more than this kitten. They never mention a puppy ever again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nvs wrote:


I didn't expect new models.

But as has been outlined in this thread my myself and others, expanded rules for Thousand Sons themed units using pre-existing models would have been possible. Especially when it should have been obvious that expansive Tzaangor selection was going to be met with mixed reviews.

But that's you. And that's fine. Try to feel more empathy towards fellow gamers. Come to their level and see how they feel.

Basically I choose to see our expanded power range as rubric stratagems. I think on table we will be fine and as we play we will see that rubrics and terms do quite well with psychic support. That doesn’t mean that GW didn’t make a mistake without giving rubrics a stratagem.

I mean spawn got a stratagem, demon engines get a stratagem, as tzaangors got a strat, packers got a few strats. The only thing without a strat is our brothers in dust

Benn Roe wrote:

Nvs wrote:
On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.

Thinking of this as a cash-grab misses the point a bit. GW's in the process of rapidly releasing codices for every army, which means most armies aren't getting expansions of their model range in conjunction with their book. Their focus is (rightly, I believe) on getting every army up to a playable standard as quickly as possible, peppered with just a few "full treatment" releases. And in spite of that, they still seem to be genuinely trying to give new options to armies when possible (like grand master nemesis dreadknights in grey knights, space marine flyers in dark angels, etc.). In that regard, thousand sons (with their penchant for sorcery, association with Tzeentch, and established link to tzaangors) presented them a unique opportunity to actually add some new units to the game by porting models in from fantasy battle/Age of Sigmar, so they took it. Sure, they knew it would help them sell some models, but is it so hard to believe they were trying to give fans something exciting within the limitations of the task before them? Would people have preferred to basically just get the index entries reprinted with a few tweaks for balance, but otherwise nothing new? Or an elite version of rubric marines in another battlefield role, with an extra ability and maybe a few statlne buffs, but no unique equipment options? Because I think those were the alternatives. Thousand sons got a proper launch with five brand new kits a year and a half ago, so there was never any chance we were getting new models with this book. I understand being a little frustrated that much of the focus is on the new stuff, which isn't the heart and soul of the faction, and there definitely should have been some strategem exclusively for rubric marines, but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff? The more traditional thousand sons stuff still got a whole lot better with all the access to spells, relics, and stratagem, and is frankly still much of what I'm excited to play.

I typed a response but it was eaten by the warp...

But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.

I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Lets assume your correct and they are only trying to release codexs

Then why add any models to any line? It's faster to take the models you have and make the most of those THEN start moving towards a complete codex.

Why release Custodes and a bunch of new models?

Why have collectors editions stuff?

They know they can't get away with only putting out books for a year, and they clearly wanted to keep up momentum for excitement this edition by having some new(ish) armies. Neither death guard nor custodes would have been possible as full codices without additional models, so they got full model support. Death guard (along with primaris because of course, grumble, grumble) was the new army to kick off the edition, custodes is the "stay with us" mid-way point, and if there's any justice in the world they'll round out the codex-release flurry with a range of plastic sisters. Otherwise, every codex has gotten only a single clampack (usually a re-release from a previous box-set) or they've gotten a minor rules expansion that corresponds with existing models only. Like it or not, that's the price of an edition so fundamentally changed that every army needs a new book.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Yes, Yes I can. 22 strats, not one of them geared towards keeping rubrics alive. Do you honestly think this is not our "full treatment"?

This is it man we are going to get and FAQ in few weeks and will not hear anything about TS for years probably. They can't drop the Rubrics points, becuase 20 man squads would cost too little, they can't buff the sorcs up to full it will make min squads too expensive, they wont pull the SOS or the AS out of the squads and make them independent units, either cheap HQs or Elites because the boxes. Even though that would be super easy add 2 units which were TS and give you the ability to create a new mechanic.

Please don't be disingenuous. I literally conceded the stratagem issue in the same sentence you partially quoted. I agree that that was lost opportunity. My point was that it's reasonable for the tzaangors to steal a bit of the limelight because most of the "new" kits we were able to get were types of tzaangor, and they want to play up the new toys. You and warpspy been working hard to find reasons to hate this codex since we got our earliest leaks, so it doesn't surprise me you've found them, but rubric marines still have the ability to have a 3++ against anti-infantry weapons, so they're not exactly sitting ducks, and their mobility and buffing options are vastly improved with the new book. Many of the close-combat buffs also go a long way toward pushing our marines over that finish line in combat, when used well. They're not just for tzaangors!

And apologies for not being clearer, my use of the phrase "full treatment" was in reference to the model range. I understand this is the codex for the edition. I'm glad we got a good one! That said, there's nothing in the world stopping them from releasing new units after the book and including rules in the box. They did it with tyranids last edition, and with the triumvirate boxes. Also, they adapted HQs from the contents of troops boxes for both harlequins and custodes, so that's not impossible either. My guess for why they didn't do it here is that they gave us standard sorcerers as our cheap(ish) HQ option, and tzaangor shamans as our elite-slot sorcerer. You know what would make great models for thousand sons versions of the CSM sorcerers, though? You guessed it.

Also, think about this: if they continue to release codices at their current rate, they'll be done with all the major books well before the end of 2018. There are only a few directions they can go after that: 1) ninth edition; 2) new armies; or 3) filling in and expanding model ranges. The cynics will say "9th", and maybe they're right, but 9th will likely be a spit-shining of 8th with all the changes made so far added in to the core book, which would honestly be kind of great, and either way we're likely to see option 3 or some combination of 2 and 3. Will thousand sons get anything new in that time? Who knows? We certainly don't need models for existing options like other armies do. Would I like to see rubric marines expanded to other battlefield roles with other equipment options? Totally, and I'd love to see upgrade kits for daemon princes and CSM vehicles to make them fit the thousand sons look better, but we don't need them, so I'm happy to wait. We did, after all, get five model kits less than two years ago, and (technically) three more this week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nvs wrote:
I typed a response but it was eaten by the warp...

But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.

I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.

I would have liked that additional support too. I certainly got into the army for the weird ancient-Egypt-themed golem marines and sorcerers, not the bird-goat-horse-people, but the book is full of heavy support options, and there was no basis for that expectation based on the evidence of all other codices this edition, and many from the last two editions. Like it or not, agree with them or not, GW believes that requiring conversions for anything leaves them open to third parties filling the vacuum, which leaves their IP vulnerable, so they gave us the book they could give us. Variety of options in most or all battlefield roles? Check. New stuff to play? Check. In the midst of the codex flurry, and given the newness of our range, I think we made out better than most. Like virtually everyone else, we'll just have to wait for more.

Nvs wrote:

But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.

I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.

A thousand times this. Totally agree with you.

Nvs wrote:
I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.

I'm just going to say the current tson army list has quite a bit more creativity than most. It certainly is more creative compared to how imperial snowflake chapters are handled, given it differs from the basic CSM so heavily and includes a lot of things that aren't power army.

I get it isn't what everyone wants, but DG and tsons both stay true to the lore while bringing a new type of mixed army we haven't really seen much of before, in the form of chaos warbands dedicated to their patron god and lead by the CSM legion of said god. It's certainly better than khorne daemonkin in that regard. It is something different and rather novel. Which is why I find it rather discouraging that so many people are quick to reject it and demand more power armor instead....

 Warpspy wrote:

Nvs wrote:

But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.

I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.

A thousand times this. Totally agree with you.

The helbrute kit can, in no way, support a psychic dread. Even if they did that - "LAZY GW! Rubric dreadnoughts wouldn't look like that!". You know it's true.
The old havoc kit would look so ridiculously bad with TS heads.

I ran a bunch of number calculations yesterday in an attempt to compare Rubrics to other units in similar roles. The results are not promising. Here's a quick summary:

Noise marines do shooting better and benefit more from VOTLW, and are less vulnerable to melee. They can even be used offensively as melee. Rubrics are a bit more durable due to all is dust and invul. But if your goal is an elite MeQ shooting army, noise marines do it better.

Intercessors are a very close comparison. Slightly less pts after weapons (18 vs 20), -1 ap instead of -2, but then they have +1 attack, +1 wound, and 30" range. A full squad of vanilla primaris doesn't quite have the damage output of a 10man rubric squad with a soul reaper, until you add auras. If the Intercessors have a Lt. nearby, they pull even for shooting. They are less durable than 1ksons vs high damage weapons. They are also much more capable in melee. And if we're talking about BA intercessors, things get crazy. They can get +1 str from a priest, narthecium, red thirst, and standard of sacrifice. With all that, they beat rubrics easily in shooting, beat them in survivability with 2W and 5+++, and are a crushingly good CC unit with str 5 and +1 to wound when charged or charging (and re-roll 1's for hits and wounds.) Now that's a bunch of character buffs, and rubrics can get psychic buffs, but the BA still pull far far ahead.

The thing is, a strat or two would make Rubrics better, but the overall problem is that there's just very little role for MeQs in the game right now period. MeQ statline is not good in 8th, and all the units based off it are struggling, even elite ones. You're just better off with cheaper swarm units paired with big tanks/monsters.

To see what I mean, consider what points cost Tac marines would need to be to be worth using as the core of your army. Even at 10pts, or 8pts, they still aren't a great option because no amount of str4 ap0 shots is gonna kill all that much.

And how much cost per model a unit of Intercessors + Priest, + Aphotecary, + Standard bearer? Of course they beat unsuported rubrics with all those buffs. But how much more they cost?

I agree thought that basically the basic space marine statline is impossible to balance. You can't make them much cheaper, because then you start entering other infantry territory. It doesn't matter that S4 is useless without meele weapons and only 1 attack, they need to pay for it. You can't make it better because you have no more design space.

Primaris Marines are the future for space marines, both for rules and for models.
Theres no price point that you can give at a Tactical Marine that don't broke the game, because the statline is totally wrong from pure game design point, it has no focus, no point in a game where generalists are normally very bad. You need put a TON of special rules on top to make that statline work.
On the other hand, the basic Primaris statline solves all of that. They have the wounds to be durable agaisn't small arms fire, they have the attacks to be competent in meele even without weapons, and their 30" S4 with -1AP Bolt Rifles are actually capable of doing things. To that statline, you can give a fair price , because they can actually DO things in a competent way.

 Galas wrote:
And how much cost per model a unit of Intercessors + Priest, + Aphotecary, + Standard bearer? Of course they beat unsuported rubrics with all those buffs. But how much more they cost?

I agree thought that basically the basic space marine statline is impossible to balance. You can't make them much cheaper, because then you start entering other infantry territory. It doesn't matter that S4 is useless without meele weapons and only 1 attack, they need to pay for it. You can't make it better because you have no more design space.

Primaris Marines are the future for space marines, both for rules and for models.
Theres no price point that you can give at a Tactical Marine that don't broke the game, because the statline is from a pure game design point is without any kind of focus in a game where generalists are normally very bad, that you need to put a TON of special rules on top to make them worth it.

On the other hand, the basic Primaris statline solves all of that. They have the wounds to be durable agaisn't small arms fire, they have the attacks to be competent in meele even without weapons, and their 30" S4 with -1AP Bolt Rifles are actually capable of doing things. To that statline, you can give a fair price , because they can actually DO things in a competent way.

They cost similar amounts of Rubrics with Sorcerer support. BA characters can run cheap. Or you can give them a fist+shield and they're still under 100pts, while being capable of serious damage and tanking. But yeah, it's a difficult exact comparison to make. But it's not a difficult general comparison to make.

And you've pretty much summed up the rest.

If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.

Yes, but on one squad at a time, and dependent on passing Psychic tests and not getting denied. Whereas the BA auras are weaker, but reliably effect lots of units.

And require a much bigger investment in points as you need a lot of characthers, while the rubrics can technically buff themselves if you really want to.

Point is, the comparison is more complicated than you make it out to be.

Isn't there a separate thread for Mathhammer? 'Cuz math ain't news or rumors.

In fact, if no one's going to leak any more info from the book, I think it might be time to move along, here...

 BoomWolf wrote:
And require a much bigger investment in points as you need a lot of characthers, while the rubrics can technically buff themselves if you really want to.

Point is, the comparison is more complicated than you make it out to be.

It's complicated if you're comparing 1 squad of intercessors with theoretical support to 1 squad of rubrics with theoretical support. It's not complicated if you're doing a detachment. Compare 3 squads of intercessors + characters to 3 squads of rubrics + characters + support to make up any point differences and it is straightforward.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.

Yes, but on one squad at a time, and dependent on passing Psychic tests and not getting denied. Whereas the BA auras are weaker, but reliably effect lots of units.

Am I the only one that finds this entirely fluffy? Chaos is all about the possibility of greatness, but at the risk of it being fickle.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.

Yes, but on one squad at a time, and dependent on passing Psychic tests and not getting denied. Whereas the BA auras are weaker, but reliably effect lots of units.

Am I the only one that finds this entirely fluffy? Chaos is all about the possibility of greatness, but at the risk of it being fickle.

It would be fluffy is there was any possibility of greatness. Right now you need a bunch of powers to get on the level of what others have by default, or with reliable auras. Chaos is supposed to be high risk high reward. Right now it's high risk for mediocre reward. That's the whole issue. If Thousand Sons powers were actually significantly stronger than other armies, 1ksons could be great. But they just aren't.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Warpspy wrote:

Nvs wrote:

I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.

A thousand times this. Totally agree with you.

The helbrute kit can, in no way, support a psychic dread. Even if they did that - "LAZY GW! Rubric dreadnoughts wouldn't look like that!". You know it's true.
The old havoc kit would look so ridiculously bad with TS heads.

I was not talking about specific models. The last sentence of the quote from Nvs is what i fully agree. Has been said by many people and myself before, it's not the new models per se, it is that the codex required some more thought and effort, like optimizing the boxes kits released so it could be possible to make 2 or more units with each of them. GW has plenty of models that could be used as a psyker dreadnought for that matter (BTW, hellbrute is a stupid name, it always has been "Chaos dreadnought", and for me is still a "chaos dreadnought"... i don't understand the absurd new naming policie ).


On another issue, has anyone noticed if in the codex there are any rule or clarification about what happens when an aspiring sorcerer from the rubric marines squad or the sorcerer from the SO terminator squad suffers perils of the warp?

I think there are none. This needed a clarification or any kind of rule to avoid destroying a full squad while trying to launch a psychic power... Add this to the soulreaper every 10 models and again GW show that they are just copy-pasting units entries... Lazy, lazy GW

I like the book. I will not be purchasing any tzaangors. I already own a huge fantasy beastmen army, already painted more than enough goats for a lifetime. I also have a ton of blue and brimstone horrors to fill up the slot of cheap bodies so I will be using those instead (plus, even more psychic powers yay). At any rate, I have a lot of anticipation on how the army will roll on the table. Might buy a Mutalith, mostly because it looks to be fairly cheap for what it can potentially do.

One big thing that I think most people don't consider is the sorcerers everywhere (and also free upgrades for the SOS and the rubrics). We do not have a psychic pool in this edition. We are not limited on how many spells we can cast per turn. If we want, we can have 8+ casters tossing out 12-15 powers a turn. Sure not all of them will go through, but even if half of them do, that's 6-7 extra abilities per turn. No other army will have any chance whatsoever to stop all our powers. We will also always have a sorcerer in range to try and deny an enemy spell. I think most people overlook this fact.

I also think that , due to All is dust, if we take a no-goat list then we practically render all small arms of the opponent moot. What are you going to do with your bolter fire? Shoot at my vehicles/ DP's or shoot at my rubrics with their 2+ save? On the other hand if we do add goats then there's a target for all the small arms.

I do - like everyone else- hate the 1 soulcannon per 10 models, not because I would otherwise field them 5x, but because I really want them to be 9x because Tzeentch. I think this thing stayed as is because there is only one cannon in the box of 10. I will have to live with that I guess.

I will be playing my scarabs too, Deep strike in this edition is too good not to take. Rhinos with warpflame gargoyles will become nasty more often than not.

3 units of brimstone horrors
3 units of rubrics (maybe two 5-mans with flamers and a 9x with bolters to act as central buffer for characters
2 units of SOT, 5 strong with 2 heavy weapons each.
3 Rhinos
Either exalted sorcerers or Daemon Princes as HQ
Couple of artifacts

Spend any remaining points on long range heavy hitters (havocs/hellbrutes/defiler)

I would dig such a list a lot. 13-14 powers to cast, 24" smites, decent body count, little bit of deepstrike, the occational Daemon Prince or hellbrute for close combat smashing.

I'm very conflicted with this release. While I'm personally happy, I only plan on running small detachments of TS rubrics/sorcerers alongside undivided armies, so the psychic potential is amazing. On the other hand this book seems to lean towards tzeentch daemonkin more than many people seem to want. While I appreciate that is fluffy (low numbers of Tsons, high numbers of indigenous gribblies on their planet), it does seem like the pure legion side of the codex is weaker - unlike the DG codex.

But then again, I also like that GW is representing that chaos marines rarely form the bulk of a chaos incursion/invasion. There's rebels, beasties and nutters that amble along in front, with the actual power-armour dudes forming the elite core.

Shame for people who want the legion though.

Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

 nintura wrote:
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

I don't think you understand the new plot. This is all build-up to the release of the exciting new model range of PrimEVIL marines! Reinforcements of much, much taller, highly different evil space marines to buyiiiii mean play with.