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Has GW ever made a niche elite unit (Referring to slot ) into a troop without any hubbub? I mean, that opens a pandora box of weird requests. Other elite armies will go insane. GK will rightly demand that they be given a 10pt troop choice. We shouldn't look for things majorly changing.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has GW ever made a niche elite unit (Referring to slot ) into a troop without any hubbub? I mean, that opens a pandora box of weird requests. Other elite armies will go insane. GK will rightly demand that they be given a 10pt troop choice. We shouldn't look for things majorly changing.

Greyknights? You mean like scouts? Why would GW keep them elite is the question IMO.

I'm not saying GW won't, I am saying there is no precedent for it, GW hasn't made major sweeping changes to any faction or sub faction since PA started. Turning a extremely cheap sub faction of niche elite fluff into a troop choice would be a major step.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has GW ever made a niche elite unit (Referring to slot ) into a troop without any hubbub? I mean, that opens a pandora box of weird requests. Other elite armies will go insane. GK will rightly demand that they be given a 10pt troop choice. We shouldn't look for things majorly changing.

Yes, actually. It's what happened to Custodian Guard. They were released as Elites in 7th and then turned into troops in 7th.

It really won't cause any problems. GK Strikes are already pretty decent for CP farming.

I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.

Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.

I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.

Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.

I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).

I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.

Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.

I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).

I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.

You said they'd be broken.

Against some lists, they're Sisters of Battle but worse (being a point more expensive and with no order traits or support HQs).
Against some lists, they're slightly better, due to having the -Psychic Aura. But then their squishy T3 butts get shot off the table and they no longer exist to make psykery harder.

At best, you'd get one turn of psyker penalties against pretty much any competitive list.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game.

A statement that is decidedly false.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole.

Im not the one who has spent two pages going on about how "broken", and yes that is your word, SoS would be as troops. Thats not my hyperbole, that's yours. It's good to know that you're realizing just how ludicrous an argument it is though.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds.

The grenade does nothing, the bolter does nothing except against the most paper thin of targets. The null rule is nice, but exceptionally easy to mitigate.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Explain to me why you hate them so much?

I dont. In fact their one of my favorite kits.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I just think for 10 points they are really good.

And once again, you're wrong. They're overpriced, underprotected units whose only value is in providing a psychic oriented foe a slight speedbump before they can bring their casters to bear.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.

Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.

I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).

I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.

You said they'd be broken.

Against some lists, they're Sisters of Battle but worse (being a point more expensive and with no order traits or support HQs).
Against some lists, they're slightly better, due to having the -Psychic Aura. But then their squishy T3 butts get shot off the table and they no longer exist to make psykery harder.

At best, you'd get one turn of psyker penalties against pretty much any competitive list.

You are also forgetting that they are just there to fill out slots for CP farms, for Custodes. I don't want to overstate how improved Custodes would become overnight if they were given 150pt Battaion troops, instead of 350pt troop requirements. That frees up a lot of room for other things, that's almost a free tank.

They could off set this by mandating that Alleya and Valarian have to be taken to unlock them as troops, thus robbing them of their cost benefit.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would anyone take another look at the Contemptor if they made the fist 4 damage a pop or a flat 6? I feel six might be broken, but it would at least get some purpose other than back field dakka. It could even get a telport homer and then go Fisto Roboto on something big an ugly.

I wouldn't, and that reason is the degrading movement stat.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't think you can compare 50pt guardians to 10pt sisters. It's not even remotely similar. One unit is 150pts min and one is 50 minimum. Also strikes are 20ppm if I recall my battlescribe list. SoS come as elites because they can target characters with Psker keywords, they have a -1 aura that stacks, and they are armed with rapidfire S4 weapons. Thats a lot of umph for a 10pt unit. If they get the talons keyword, I assume you can put them in custodes transports. I don't envy trying to play lists like GK when you can soup in BNs of SoS that stack -3 to cast in my backfield that can be FGLTC into the backfield on turn 2. That will be broken.

Strikes are 17 points a head including wargear, and they have zero problems killing SoS at range. Burning three CP, plus all of your deep strike capacity, to put three pods of Sisters in a vain attempt to neuter a GK psychic phase is abject lunacy, and a major gift to the GK player.

I also love how, according to you at least, S4 ap1 2d weapons are pathetic and underpowered on Custodians, but when a Sister pops off an S4 ap0 1d bolter they're somehow god tier. Your vaunted SoS deathball of 50 point ownage does a whopping 0.4 damage to a Strike team in Tide of Shadows (And yes, they're going to be in Shadows when you try to drop and nuke them).

I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points? I never implied they are god tier, or that strikes are bad, That was your hyperbole. You have made a strong reputation for yourself being a real forums tough guy. That's fine. My point is for 50 points you have sniper rules against anything wounds with psyker in it's sheet, the same target will roll all psyker tests with -4, and the grenades are just a free weapon that gives mortal wounds. Explain to me why you hate them so much? I just think for 10 points they are really good. Not god teir.

You said they'd be broken.

Against some lists, they're Sisters of Battle but worse (being a point more expensive and with no order traits or support HQs).
Against some lists, they're slightly better, due to having the -Psychic Aura. But then their squishy T3 butts get shot off the table and they no longer exist to make psykery harder.

At best, you'd get one turn of psyker penalties against pretty much any competitive list.

You are also forgetting that they are just there to fill out slots for CP farms, for Custodes. I don't want to overstate how improved Custodes would become overnight if they were given 150pt Battaion troops, instead of 350pt troop requirements. That frees up a lot of room for other things, that's almost a free tank.

They could off set this by mandating that Alleya and Valarian have to be taken to unlock them as troops, thus robbing them of their cost benefit.

I don't get why 150p troops would make big difference. You can have a whole battalion for 165p if you take Admech.

Because that would be soup, the general feeling is that Talons will grant sisters some form of uni-dex buff, whether it be to be taken as troops for Custodes or that they will be granted some of their sweet sweet keyword custodes buffs like invulns or -1 to hit, or extra attacks. Just giving them access to the flag buffs would be great, I don't think anything else but custodes keyword is allowed to benefit from them. If they change the wording from Custodes, to Talons, suddenly they become slightly better.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points?

Last year during the betadex period you would get 5 sisters with three stormbolters (which could be boosted to 2 damage AP -2 for a single CP) for 51 points, and each squad would get you a full two dice deny roll and a strategem for an extra 4+ deny if the first roll failed. Sporting their own morale protection, invulnerable, optional FnP, bonus and reroll to hit and even self-resurrection.

You could drop them straight into a custodes army with no drawbacks, but at the end of the day they didn't even displace guard allies.

As they stand sisters of silence have nothing on them other than potentially (if they are made troops) allowing a custodes player to drop their own troop units. If beta SoB allies didn't break the custodes then the SoS have a long long way to go before they do.

A.T. wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points?

Last year during the betadex period you would get 5 sisters with three stormbolters (which could be boosted to 2 damage AP -2 for a single CP) for 51 points, and each squad would get you a full two dice deny roll and a strategem for an extra 4+ deny if the first roll failed. Sporting their own morale protection, invulnerable, optional FnP, bonus and reroll to hit and even self-resurrection.

You could drop them straight into a custodes army with no drawbacks, but at the end of the day they didn't even displace guard allies.

As they stand sisters of silence have nothing on them other than potentially (if they are made troops) allowing a custodes player to drop their own troop units. If beta SoB allies didn't break the custodes then the SoS have a long long way to go before they do.

It all depends on what assocaited buffs come with being part of Talons. I have to presume that Talons allows for merging of the Custodes buffs and strats onto SoS. Which isn't true for SoB.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am sorry you so misconstrued my post. I'm simply saying for the cost, they would be one of the best, if not the best troops in the game. What other troop unit does what they do for 10 points?

Last year during the betadex period you would get 5 sisters with three stormbolters (which could be boosted to 2 damage AP -2 for a single CP) for 51 points, and each squad would get you a full two dice deny roll and a strategem for an extra 4+ deny if the first roll failed. Sporting their own morale protection, invulnerable, optional FnP, bonus and reroll to hit and even self-resurrection.

You could drop them straight into a custodes army with no drawbacks, but at the end of the day they didn't even displace guard allies.

As they stand sisters of silence have nothing on them other than potentially (if they are made troops) allowing a custodes player to drop their own troop units. If beta SoB allies didn't break the custodes then the SoS have a long long way to go before they do.

It all depends on what assocaited buffs come with being part of Talons. I have to presume that Talons allows for merging of the Custodes buffs and strats onto SoS. Which isn't true for SoB.

+1 Attack is basically useless on anyone but the sword Sisters.
5++ might be useful, if they don't have one normally, but considering you'll be mowing them down with small-arms that rarely hit AP-3, it won't matter much.
-1 on to-hits against them could be very useful, but it won't make them survivable ENOUGH to close in and make use of their anti-psyker aura.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It all depends on what assocaited buffs come with being part of Talons. I have to presume that Talons allows for merging of the Custodes buffs and strats onto SoS. Which isn't true for SoB.

The beta SoB brought their own 5++ and could roll with +1 attack AND strength if they wanted (and yes both at the same time, and the 2d6 deny on top).

(disclaimer - should be noted none of this applies to the current SoB, but rather the SoB as they were during the beta when there was a long stretch of time and tournaments they could have been running alongside custodes)

If they are troops and if you want to run custodes without guardians or sagittarum then they'll bring you a few extra points but otherwise they are nothing the custodes didn't have a year ago with allies. And i'm not suggesting they are bad, just that the game didn't break when the custodes had it better.

So, again, there is no way of knowing what Talons will bring. They might get re-rolls on shooting towards characters, which makes the flamers pretty saucy. They might get increased Aura. They might get re-roll charges. There is literally no knowing. But in all honesty, if they simply became troops, it wouldn't be worth it, because you likely have to take the HQ tag team terrible, which would obliterate any points savings. Then again, if they get a semi-reasonable HQ unit, that isn't 300+ points, then who knows?

With regards to the other half of your original post (a specialist unit becoming troops) - the sagittarum guard would be a recent example.

What kind of model or kit would Custodes need next? I thought of these:

some kind of long range anti tank on foot.
Smaller shooty flyer.
An HQ that is not another standard shield captain. Something with a spcial role.

 nordsturmking wrote:
What kind of model or kit would Custodes need next? I thought of these:

some kind of long range anti tank on foot.
Smaller shooty flyer.
An HQ that is not another standard shield captain. Something with a spcial role.

I’d say the biggest gap in the army is out-of-LOS shooting, not even the FW units have it (though the spiculus on the Telemon looks like it should). The other gap is psychic defense, which Talons integration should fix.

Different generic or even special characters (appropriately written!) would be good, perhaps the heads of the various different sects within the AC, with some weird and wonderful relics for interesting rules.

I don't think they particularly need to have a unit filling every kind of military battlefield role like Marines for example, because they're not really military. Custodes are the big bulletproof dudes who run up and hit stuff really hard, a few buffs to allow them to do that better would suit me.

All I really think we need are:

1. Psychic defense

2. A more reliable way to get into combat (re-roll charge aura/trait at a bare minimum)

It would be nice, though not essential, if we could get something like a Lieutenant too to give a re-roll 1's to Wound aura.

I'll point it out again, Custodes were designed with soup in mind back in the start of 8th, when they could be freely augmented to have all their glaring flaws fixed by soup. without much effort, Guard mortars backed up by primaris Pskers would fill two of out more glaring weaknesses. That being said, if we are sticking with the theme that everything in 8th must be mono-dex to be considered viable, everything good that we have is FW. Our best vehicles, our best naughts, our best infantry. I would like to see some form of Custodes Librarian/Chaplain, and a major overhaul of the land raider system, if not just an ability to paint a Impulsor Gold and call it "Venerable Impulsor".

Simple idea: There are multiple sects(?) of Custodes, why not open up the lore for Custodes with varying strats. Night watchers(?) Solar Watch (?) etc. Solar could have a negative to hit ability in overwatch. I forget what the other Chapters are, but then we also have the Custodes who leave the armor behind, and become spies/galactic travelers. I would love to see them get somehow incorporated as a unit. Slightly less perfect beings that are still basically custodes, but so old that they can no longer hold the line. Venerable Guardians essentially.

I personally think the whole bolter discipline marines have would of suited Custodes better personally.

Or just make the Spears/Axes Assault 2 and the Sword Pistol 3 that can be used to advance and still shoot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or just make the Spears/Axes Assault 2 and the Sword Pistol 3 that can be used to advance and still shoot.

Yeah, that would be neat. Though the only things I want from war of the spider is some buffs to charges and some consistency to our melee weapon dmg. Oh yeah, and something like transhuman physiology, because marines and paladins being tougher than us is actual heresy....

Have you seen the leaked stuff the harlequins are going to get? I thought the murderclowns got shafted by being pushed into a white dwarf, but the stuff they get is really tasty. If we get similarly nice stuff, it'll give us a good boost. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Oh, and I want some decent rules for valerian, the black library celebration rules for him and aleya are a joke.

Edit: Also I want some updated FW rules for my galatus and achillus so they become good. I know it won't happen in PA, but still....those models deserve better rules!

Has GW ever produced rule changes for FW models? I mean other than nerfs? It seems like would anyone be shocked if GW just forgot that we were in the pipe, and left us alone with our Talons mistake?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has GW ever produced rule changes for FW models? I mean other than nerfs? It seems like would anyone be shocked if GW just forgot that we were in the pipe, and left us alone with our Talons mistake?

Well, no but FW will bring out new and updated indexes in book form for all their units some time this year if I'm not mistaken and I really hope for some updated rules for our 3 forgeworld dreads. And the venetari while we're at it, because the models are bitchin, but their rules and cost are rather lackluster.