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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Easier than saying "Sending them into hysterics for the lulz"

I'd like to politely point out that only person who has been somewhat hysterically in this thread is you...

after completely abandoning 40k due to 8th as a tabletop, I like more female models so my RPG players have more representation. With the AoS rpg coming out soon I was glad to see female stormcast as I have a player "chomping at the bit" to play one of those golden turds.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 unitled wrote:
What am I disagreeing with them on? Like I say, I've only been in the group 6 months or so and I haven't seen anything other feminists largely enjoying their hobby? People sharing their models and paintjobs.

1- Say you think Space Marines should all be men, and that Sisters should all be women. Just do that and watch what happens. If not this, find any point they make and dispute it POLITELY. Watch.

2- Ask what happened to their feminist cosplayer that left and took people with her.

 unitled wrote:
Also, 'triggered'? Really?

Easier than saying "Sending them into hysterics for the lulz"

Right... but what if I don't? I think Primaris was actually a really good opportunity to introduce some women into the marines, and I understand why people are upset they didn't. It isn't going to stop me playing or collecting though (I don't collect Imperials anyway). If people want to communicate with GW what they feel about this, it doesn't bother me at all. I have no idea what the cosplayer drama is about, and frankly I don't care. A google search doesn't show up anything. Fundamentally, though: what's wrong with people policing their own facebook group? If people don't gel with the values of a group, showing them the door is the right thing to do. Not every space is a space for debate, some places are for people to relax and talk about what they have in common.

Also: I didn't see a single 'fringe leftist' sent into HYSTERICS by those memes. People just saw them as eye-rollingly pathetic. Everyone knows the right can't meme anyway

 Crimson wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Easier than saying "Sending them into hysterics for the lulz"

I'd like to politely point out that only person who has been somewhat hysterically in this thread is you...

He's been the only correct one in the thread so far though.

 Crimson wrote:
I'd like to politely point out that only person who has been somewhat hysterically in this thread is you...

And I'm not particularly concerned if I hurt your feelings with my comment. I think I've been pretty straightforward and I haven't attacked anyone directly. If you can't refute an argument, and want to go that route then go right ahead. Be. My. Guest.


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 unitled wrote:
Right... but what if I don't? I think Primaris was actually a really good opportunity to introduce some women into the marines, and I understand why people are upset they didn't. It isn't going to stop me playing or collecting though (I don't collect Imperials anyway). If people want to communicate with GW what they feel about this, it doesn't bother me at all. I have no idea what the cosplayer drama is about, and frankly I don't care. A google search doesn't show up anything. Fundamentally, though: what's wrong with people policing their own facebook group? If people don't gel with the values of a group, showing them the door is the right thing to do. Not every space is a space for debate, some places are for people to relax and talk about what they have in common.

Then I disagree.

You don't care that men ran women out of a feminist community? Cool, I look forward to seeing more posts in that group where the members can't figure out why there aren't more female voices in the group.

I have a screenshot of this, too.

 unitled wrote:
Also: I didn't see a single 'fringe leftist' sent into HYSTERICS by those memes. People just saw them as eye-rollingly pathetic. Everyone knows the right can't meme anyway

"The right can't meme!" - the people who declared war on a cartoon frog

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd like to politely point out that only person who has been somewhat hysterically in this thread is you...

And I'm not particularly concerned if I hurt your feelings with my comment. I think I've been pretty straightforward and I haven't attacked anyone directly. If you can't refute an argument, and want to go that route then go right ahead. Be. My. Guest.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you did not hurt my feelings. It is just that you have been raving about the facebook group, listing bunch of things that may or may not have happened, and accused the OP of being administrator of said group without any solid evidence. It might be more constructive to engage with things that have actually been said here.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 unitled wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


I don't want to turn gaming into a segue into identity politics or sociology.

Yeah, why can't people shut up and let me enjoy this game about a fascist society who enforces their xenophobic law through state-sponsored violence without bringing politics into it?

So I'm not allowed to play Chess without thinking about race? Or Othello?

If I play poker, because of the card being made of trees, and trees are being cut down, I should be thinking about the environment?

If I play Risk, I shouldn't be thinking about how to win/enjoy a BOARD GAME, but should instead by thinking about global politics and warfare?



Yeah, I believe there's a thing called "escapism". For some, 40k IS escapism, and I see no reason why that should be wrong. If someone doesn't want to bring politics into a board game for plastic toy soldiers, I think that's a reasonable request.

There's a solid difference between escapism and refusing to think about anything ever. 40K has far more modern-world political origins than chess does. You're bristling at the suggestion that perhaps people should analyse the intellectual content of the things they interact with and offer up "thinking about global politics" as a ridiculous hypothetical conclusion to such behaviour.

The 40K setting is definitely fascist. It's a setting where eternal suspicion, genetic cleansing, war against an incomprehensible alien Other and hatred of compassion is perhaps grim but the only way that things could be. There has to be mass violence based upon the intrinsic qualities of the non-human. It's not just that the Imperium is written as fascists as part of justifying any faction fighting against any other faction in a tabletop game originally based on a mix of Judge Dredd and Dune

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Is it odd to consider that a judge looks beyond the simple act and looks into the motives and intents of the accused when deciding on a sentence?

Judges are harsher when they're hungry so you're better off having your case tried just after breakfast or just after lunch. They are human like anyone else so it'd be odder to just assume that they wouldn't have the prejudices of most other people of their social groups.

In all seriousness, this is like the 3rd "feminist" related thread I have seen in our forum in a week. I've seen this before in other hobbies. It starts small then its a full blown genestealer infestation. Those pushing this discussion have an agenda & it has nothing to do with improving the hobby. I will repeat what I have said in the past:

You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything feminism touches. If anyone thinks 40k lacks diversity, obviously they are ignoring the Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, IG women, Eldar/Dark Eldar women, female Tau..etc

Like I say: I have been in the group for 6 months and I have seen literally none of that behaviour. If it has happened I condemn it, and I would do in person in the group if I saw it. And, as I also mentioned earlier, consider my comments as being on the broader topic of feminist communities, not the feminist40k group in particular.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 unitled wrote:
Also: I didn't see a single 'fringe leftist' sent into HYSTERICS by those memes. People just saw them as eye-rollingly pathetic. Everyone knows the right can't meme anyway

"The right can't meme!" - the people who declared war on a cartoon frog

Sorry fren: pepe is dead. Remember when /r/the_donald melted down when /r/Sweden demolished them? They were, if you'll excuse the phrase, sent into hysterics.

 Crimson wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you, bou did not hurt my feelings. It is just that you have been raving about the facebook group, listing bunch of things that may or may not have happened, and accused the OP of being administrator of said group without any solid evidence. It might be more constructive to engage with things that have actually been said here.

Time and time again the arguments have been engaged. And no refutation has occurred. You are now at that moment where you have no argument, and you are simply upset. It's fine. I wasn't trying to shut you down in particular, but before this gets escalated and your emotions get the best of you- you might want to take a breath, and refute an actual argument rather than take umbrage.

And yes, I made that assessment. I even said, I could be wrong. But I doubt I am. I'm very familiar with the page owner's tactics and writing style. Anyone with any experience with the individual in various other groups could attest to that.

And hey, if I was mistaken- the OP certainly went reeling more so than I'd expect.


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 unitled wrote:
Sorry fren: pepe is dead. Remember when /r/the_donald melted down when /r/Sweden demolished them? They were, if you'll excuse the phrase, sent into hysterics.

Funny, the meme is still pretty active and still sends folks like you screaming about Nazis.

And, isn't Sweden having a bit of a... problem right now? And aren't they known for being really, really dishonest about reporting their actual problems?

I could be wrong. I'm no -huge- fan of Trump, but I support him just as I did Obama. Doesn't mean I agree with him, or like everything he does- but he has my support.


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 Commissar Benny wrote:
In all seriousness, this is like the 3rd "feminist" related thread I have seen in our forum in a week.

They're fading in relevance in the community, they gotta stir the pot.

Rosebuddy wrote:

There's a solid difference between escapism and refusing to think about anything ever. 40K has far more modern-world political origins than chess does. You're bristling at the suggestion that perhaps people should analyse the intellectual content of the things they interact with and offer up "thinking about global politics" as a ridiculous hypothetical conclusion to such behaviour.

The 40K setting is definitely fascist. It's a setting where eternal suspicion, genetic cleansing, war against an incomprehensible alien Other and hatred of compassion is perhaps grim but the only way that things could be. There has to be mass violence based upon the intrinsic qualities of the non-human. It's not just that the Imperium is written as fascists as part of justifying any faction fighting against any other faction in a tabletop game originally based on a mix of Judge Dredd and Dune

Yes, the Imperium is built upon authorianism, millitarism, repression, fanatical zeal, and genocidal cleansing of the entire galaxy (no less). Is it bad that these things appears in what is very clearly fiction?

I like the imperium just as I like Sauron, Mordor and Isengard in LOTR. That doesn't mean I support what they actually represent in real life. But as fiction they are cool. They couldn't be more different from my political views.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads.

You're speaking about Star Wars, the Last Jedi, one of the most successful films ever?

Everytime certain sort of people in the internet cry about 'feminist ruining' certain films, it turns out those films will be amazing and very successful. Mad Max the Fury Road, Wonder Woman, the Last Jedi. I loved them all, and they all did financially very well.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you, bou did not hurt my feelings. It is just that you have been raving about the facebook group, listing bunch of things that may or may not have happened, and accused the OP of being administrator of said group without any solid evidence. It might be more constructive to engage with things that have actually been said here.

Time and time again the arguments have been engaged. And no refutation has occurred. You are now at that moment where you have no argument, and you are simply upset. It's fine. I wasn't trying to shut you down in particular, but before this gets escalated and your emotions get the best of you- you might want to take a breath, and refute an actual argument rather than take umbrage.

And yes, I made that assessment. I even said, I could be wrong. But I doubt I am. I'm very familiar with the page owner's tactics and writing style. Anyone with any experience with the individual in various other groups could attest to that.

And hey, if I was mistaken- the OP certainly went reeling more so than I'd expect.


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 unitled wrote:
Sorry fren: pepe is dead. Remember when /r/the_donald melted down when /r/Sweden demolished them? They were, if you'll excuse the phrase, sent into hysterics.

Funny, the meme is still pretty active and still sends folks like you screaming about Nazis.

And, isn't Sweden having a bit of a... problem right now? And aren't they known for being really, really dishonest about reporting their actual problems?

I could be wrong. I'm no -huge- fan of Trump, but I support him just as I did Obama. Doesn't mean I agree with him, or like everything he does- but he has my support.


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 Commissar Benny wrote:
In all seriousness, this is like the 3rd "feminist" related thread I have seen in our forum in a week.

They're fading in relevance in the community, they gotta stir the pot.

I can attest to that, and you are right, he still hasnt replied to my breakdown of why "his" Bols article is a bigoted attack on the wargaming community, he thinks its fine, he is delusional.


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 Crimson wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads.

You're speaking about Star Wars, the Last Jedi, one of the most successful films ever?

Everytime certain sort of people in the internet cry about 'feminist ruining' certain films, it turns out those films will be amazing and very successful. Mad Max the Fury Road, Wonder Woman, the Last Jedi. I loved them all, and they all did financially very well.

Financially successful sure, one of the most successful films of all time, not even close, not even remotely, just over to the SWTLJ thread if you want to continue this discussion.

 Crimson wrote:

You're speaking about Star Wars, the Last Jedi, one of the most successful films ever?

You mean the lowest-grossing Star Wars movie ever?

If this thread isn't at least 16 pages by tomorrow morning I'm going to be very upset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films

The Last Jedi is the 9th most grossing film of all time. What are you people talking about? Only Star Wars the Force Awakens (Another SJW movie because the female and black protagonists) did more money than it, talking about the SW saga. (If you adjust inflation it goes down yeah, but not so much, Force Awakens should be rank 7-8 even with inflation for example)

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Time and time again the arguments have been engaged. And no refutation has occurred. You are now at that moment where you have no argument, and you are simply upset. It's fine. I wasn't trying to shut you down in particular, but before this gets escalated and your emotions get the best of you- you might want to take a breath, and refute an actual argument rather than take umbrage.

I think you're projecting now. I'm not really sure what your argument is besides talking gak about the FB group (which may or may not be true) and posting meme pics.

And yes, I made that assessment. I even said, I could be wrong. But I doubt I am. I'm very familiar with the page owner's tactics and writing style. Anyone with any experience with the individual in various other groups could attest to that.

And hey, if I was mistaken- the OP certainly went reeling more so than I'd expect.

It is not constructive to make such claims based mere hunch.

 Crimson wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads.

You're speaking about Star Wars, the Last Jedi, one of the most successful films ever?

Everytime certain sort of people in the internet cry about 'feminist ruining' certain films, it turns out those films will be amazing and very successful. Mad Max the Fury Road, Wonder Woman, the Last Jedi. I loved them all, and they all did financially very well.

While the Last Jedi clearly sucked (for reasons entirely unrelated to feminism) Fury Road was an awesome movie. I really cannot think of a great movie that was ruined by political correctness, but I can hardly think of one that was made better by it either. Strong female characters are great when their characterisation works, and when they are interesting, relatable and awesome. But the exact same is true of super-macho characters, like Quaid in Total Recall or Slaine in the comic-book series.

 Crimson wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads.

You're speaking about Star Wars, the Last Jedi, one of the most successful films ever?

Everytime certain sort of people in the internet cry about 'feminist ruining' certain films, it turns out those films will be amazing and very successful. Mad Max the Fury Road, Wonder Woman, the Last Jedi. I loved them all, and they all did financially very well.

The Last Jedi had an historical week-to-week drop. It started amazing because of TFA but then dropped.
The WSJ reports that performed less than expected (and is easy to understand why).
I did not see WW and I loved MM:FR, absolutely loved it. TLJ is one of the worst written movies ever but the "feminist"* pandering is not even in the top 10 of its problems.
The movie has potentially alienated part of the fanbase. We discussed, and still discuss it, in the appropriate part of the board, in two threads (one closed, one not) with a lot elements described and analyzed.
* I would argue against the term because I think that a true feminist would be annoyed at women characters written like that

I agree thought that The Last Jedi is a horrible movie. But I haven't been a fan of star wars to begin with... for me, the worst part of the SW universe is the movies.

I recognized the style of the OP too, someone using academic langauge (explained) to brooch a dangerous subject. In neither his style nor line of thinking do I see clear evidence pointing to one particular FB page. I have read many threads like this on many forums and really none of it is new and none of it specific enough that I would brazenly declare knowing who OP is.

I love reading these threads where feminists pretend to love/ always loved 40k.... yet

1.Don't like the model range due to lack of diversity (ignore the fact that all models grey and the only thing separating a female and male space marine is a head swap)
2. Don't like the lore because of lack of diversity (ignoring that GW encourages you to make your own lore and unique army)
3. Don't like the player base because of lack of diversity/ everyone is a bigot/fascist/racist ect.

I'm always curious what exactly you like about 40k? Or is the truth that you simply want to turn someone else's hobby into your so that we have to be miserable people that cant enjoy anything without feeling oppressed about 10000 different things

 Earth127 wrote:
I recognized the style of the OP too, someone using academic langauge (explained) to brooch a dangerous subject. In neither his style nor line of thinking do I see clear evidence pointing to one particular FB page. I have read many threads like this on many forums and really none of it is new and none of it specific enough that I would brazenly declare knowing who OP is.

I have to respectfully disagree, I have read enough of the Fem40k admins stuff to recognise his style, while I may be wrong, I still think its the same person, It wasnt just me thinking this either, but as I said, I may be wrong.


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 Galas wrote:
I agree thought that The Last Jedi is a horrible movie. But I haven't been a fan of star wars to begin with... for me, the worst part of the SW universe is the movies.

So so true

 Nerak wrote:
If this thread isn't at least 16 pages by tomorrow morning I'm going to be very upset.

Contributing to the cause! I don't want to disappoint Nerak in the morning

Also: more shameless promoing for my super macho, all male with raging testosterone conversions for my army. Only 1 non-GW piece used in all 3 of these models (the head on the sister), everything else supplied by the super-sexist GW.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aH49_zzZYgA_m1yQFaP10TM43tLYrKTJ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qBXWGn_DR_YzJOzOQ3K7LYcFqNAbGvEE

I think the "missile tits" were a great touch, btw. Very Slaanesh, there's 6 of 'em, just like the Forgeworld Keeper of Secrets or whatever it calls itself these days.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
[
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything feminism touches.

This is entirely incorrect.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
[If anyone thinks 40k lacks diversity, obviously they are ignoring the Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, IG women, Eldar/Dark Eldar women, female Tau..etc

Anyone ignoring women in the Imperial Guard are doing mostly what GW has done. Maybe something was snuck out in the past few years or maybe FW did something but I can't recall a single guardswoman model. Sisters of Battle aren't a great example because of their lack of support (plus the whole "it's the woman army" thing). The Custodes, a faction known mainly for staying on Earth, has received more plastic models than the SoB. GW just haven't put a lot of effort into fleshing the SoB out as an army.

pismakron wrote:

Yes, the Imperium is built upon authorianism, millitarism, repression, fanatical zeal, and genocidal cleansing of the entire galaxy (no less). Is it bad that these things appears in what is very clearly fiction?

What makes the 40K setting fascist isn't that the Imperium has those qualities. it's that they're written as largely justified because that's just how the galaxy works.

The 40k setting his a parody, they aren't justified, is just that the galaxy sucks and everybody is horrible, like the Negative Universes of DC (I don't know if you have read Dark Nights: Metal)... and I don't know if you have realised that since Guilliman was resurrected they have been doing the good work of putting the Imperium that follow Guilliman as the good guys. Thats why he put aside all the Lords of Terra, those old and incompetent bad guys!

Is hard to marketing your setting to the widder audience when the "protagonists" are space-Nazis/KKK. Personally I prefer the grimdark, warhammer setting, I have always defended that the Imperium of man are the Great Devourer, not the Tyranids, but some people will "abuse" me for saying that... eh Sgt_Smudge?

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
[
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where this road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything feminism touches.

This is entirely incorrect.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
[If anyone thinks 40k lacks diversity, obviously they are ignoring the Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, IG women, Eldar/Dark Eldar women, female Tau..etc

Anyone ignoring women in the Imperial Guard are doing mostly what GW has done. Maybe something was snuck out in the past few years or maybe FW did something but I can't recall a single guardswoman model. Sisters of Battle aren't a great example because of their lack of support (plus the whole "it's the woman army" thing). The Custodes, a faction known mainly for staying on Earth, has received more plastic models than the SoB. GW just haven't put a lot of effort into fleshing the SoB out as an army.

pismakron wrote:

Yes, the Imperium is built upon authorianism, millitarism, repression, fanatical zeal, and genocidal cleansing of the entire galaxy (no less). Is it bad that these things appears in what is very clearly fiction?

What makes the 40K setting fascist isn't that the Imperium has those qualities. it's that they're written as largely justified because that's just how the galaxy works.

The Marvel Execs seem to think its hurt their sales, MTG lost an estimated 8 million players over this too, although I very much doubt those numbers as the source is not as reliable as I would like, Star Wars has lost money for many many reasons, the perceived SJW issue is just one of them, Hollywood is completely correct, its overrun with entitled jackasses, but what else is new there

So he isnt totally wrong, just lacking clear proof.

 Galas wrote:
I like the imperium just as I like Sauron, Mordor and Isengard in LOTR. That doesn't mean I support what they actually represent in real life. But as fiction they are cool. They couldn't be more different from my political views.

Yep, exactly.

People who seem to identify with the Imperium a bit too much worry me...

Asmodios wrote:
I love reading these threads where feminists pretend to love/ always loved 40k.... yet

1.Don't like the model range due to lack of diversity (ignore the fact that all models grey and the only thing separating a female and male space marine is a head swap)
2. Don't like the lore because of lack of diversity (ignoring that GW encourages you to make your own lore and unique army)
3. Don't like the player base because of lack of diversity/ everyone is a bigot/fascist/racist ect.

I'm always curious what exactly you like about 40k? Or is the truth that you simply want to turn someone else's hobby into your so that we have to be miserable people that cant enjoy anything without feeling oppressed about 10000 different things

You know you can enjoy something and acknowledge it has issues right? Also, I started on GW over 20 years ago and proud to call myself a feminist. At what point does this become 'my' hobby?