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 Manchu wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
WTF was up with hiring Lord and Miller in the first place?

A great question, for Kathleen Kennedy to answer.

I don't think she deserves *TOO* much scorn, especially if you really liked Solo. At least she took decisive action before it was too late in order to right the ship.

Now you're just playing both sides. She hired Lord and Miller. She fired Lord and Miller. Yes, she also hired Ron Howard to fix and finish the film. But the film was a box office catastrophe. She actually didn't right the ship - especially from your POV, since you insist that Solo was, at best, a mediocre and forgettable movie. Ron Howard deserves credit for making a very good movie in a tough position. But the failure of that movie is down to Kathleen Kennedy.

I'm not playing both sides. I simply don't see any need to be absolutist about it, or to call for a pound of flesh from the woman. In business and life, it's not *only* about the mistakes you make, but how you recover from them. And while I do think Solo was mediocre and forgettable, it wasn't a disaster that harmed the brand. I'm sure she burned a lot of political capital convincing investors to spend all that additional money to almost completely reshoot a film that the studio probably already knew was going to get lukewarm interest with audiences. But if she'd been conservative and stayed the course with L&M (probably saving, what, $75-100 mil?) they might have approached breakeven with this film in the short term, AND done some long-term damage to the brand following on the heels of the divisive TLJ.

Maybe her overall grade for this effort ends up at a D-, but it could have been a Titanic level-disaster for Lucasfilm beyond just the box office. I don't think it's unreasonable to give her a single ounce of credit for avoiding the iceberg.

These rhetorical gymnastics are getting weird. Kathleen Kennedy is, to begin with, responsible for your hypothetical scenario in which Solo could have been "much worse." And the financial disaster of Solo actually *IS* bad for the brand. SW has never lost money before. And the reason it did this time is because it took (at least) $80 million to correct her mistake. Now, we know she decides who makes these films and how - Lord & Miller aren't the first guy's she's fired and Solo isn't the first Diseny SW picture to require extensive reshoots. I'm not sure, however, that she decides how many hundreds of millions the parent company can spend making these pictures. But even if she has the authority to say, yes we will spend $250 million on Solo, when that money has all been spent to get to a point where 70% needs to be reshot by a more experienced, efficient, and reliable director, do you think she still has the authority to unilaterally sign off on a further $80 million?

This whole line of discussion began with your question: "WTF was up with hiring Lord and Miller in the first place?" Again, a very good question - for Kathleen Kennedy to answer. There is no silver lining to a $250 million mistake with $80 million of damage control on top, that still resulted in brand damage. We have no idea whether L&M's Solo would have broken even and we can't know whether their movie would have damaged the brand as much as or more than Howard's Solo being a flop. All we know is Solo seemed fethed at every stage of its development, marketing, and release, all under the auspices of Ms. Kennedy.

She also oversaw a lot of money being made previous to 2017. But Solo was financially DOA. The quality of the film itself cannot have caused its performance because nobody showed up to begin with. Something was clearly already going very wrong, even as Ms. Kennedy was making financially successful SW movies. The patterns are there: rocky relationships with directors and lots of reshoots. The result today is that everyone knows that how SW can and should move forward is an open question.

 Vulcan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Except for all the racist and sexists tweets to her twitter account. It wasn't *a* racist or sexist, it was a quite a few of them, who felt the best way to deal with their personal problems was to publically throw their issues at her via twitter. So... this 'no evidence' nonsense you're spouting is just incorrect.

Except now you're back to implying that those - what, dozen? two dozen? - racist sexist bigots are somehow representative of everyone who didn't like TLJ.

Not at all. I'm saying sirlynchmob's sudden narrative that those tweets didn't happen is blatantly untrue. *I* didn't like TLJ, because Johnson is a talentless hack at both writing and directing and produced a fairly crap movie. It has zero to do with race or gender.

But at the same time there is also no reason to ignore the actual fact that a lot of racist and sexist idiots are seizing on it as an excuse to vent about their worthless opinions. Or pretend, as that post did, that racist and sexist things didn't happen. Tran was targeted for being an Asian woman in a film a pile of idiots didn't like. Rather than just accepting the fact that they didn't like the film, like reasonable people, they lashed out at people bashed on their bigotry. That makes them unreasonable people.

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Except for all the racist and sexists tweets to her twitter account. It wasn't *a* racist or sexist, it was a quite a few of them, who felt the best way to deal with their personal problems was to publically throw their issues at her via twitter. So... this 'no evidence' nonsense you're spouting is just incorrect.

Except now you're back to implying that those - what, dozen? two dozen? - racist sexist bigots are somehow representative of everyone who didn't like TLJ.

Not at all. I'm saying sirlynchmob's sudden narrative that those tweets didn't happen is blatantly untrue. *I* didn't like TLJ, because Johnson is a talentless hack at both writing and directing and produced a fairly crap movie. It has zero to do with race or gender.

But at the same time there is also no reason to ignore the actual fact that a lot of racist and sexist idiots are seizing on it as an excuse to vent about their worthless opinions. Or pretend, as that post did, that racist and sexist things didn't happen. Tran was targeted for being an Asian woman in a film a pile of idiots didn't like. Rather than just accepting the fact that they didn't like the film, like reasonable people, they lashed out at people bashed on their bigotry. That makes them unreasonable people.

You know it works both ways right, loads of far left bigots have also latched onto and abused Star Wars fans/actors, if you accept one, you must accept the other.

Saddest thing of it all is us that are stuck in the middle, the twitter trolls and the SJW’s are causing so many issues, I wish both would just leave.

 Formosa wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Except for all the racist and sexists tweets to her twitter account. It wasn't *a* racist or sexist, it was a quite a few of them, who felt the best way to deal with their personal problems was to publically throw their issues at her via twitter. So... this 'no evidence' nonsense you're spouting is just incorrect.

Except now you're back to implying that those - what, dozen? two dozen? - racist sexist bigots are somehow representative of everyone who didn't like TLJ.

Not at all. I'm saying sirlynchmob's sudden narrative that those tweets didn't happen is blatantly untrue. *I* didn't like TLJ, because Johnson is a talentless hack at both writing and directing and produced a fairly crap movie. It has zero to do with race or gender.

But at the same time there is also no reason to ignore the actual fact that a lot of racist and sexist idiots are seizing on it as an excuse to vent about their worthless opinions. Or pretend, as that post did, that racist and sexist things didn't happen. Tran was targeted for being an Asian woman in a film a pile of idiots didn't like. Rather than just accepting the fact that they didn't like the film, like reasonable people, they lashed out at people bashed on their bigotry. That makes them unreasonable people.

You know it works both ways right, loads of far left bigots have also latched onto and abused Star Wars fans/actors, if you accept one, you must accept the other.

Saddest thing of it all is us that are stuck in the middle, the twitter trolls and the SJW’s are causing so many issues, I wish both would just leave.

Nobody said right or left!

Why the feth are you bringing politics into it?

The political divide is not simply about social issues. There are sexists and racists on the left too. And even if there were not. Even if he DID say that it was right wing idiots who did this dumb thing, then who the feth cares if the left ALSO has idiots. Each side can be judged for their idiots individually without having to pay lip services to the other sides idiots in the same statement every time. Please, take your political insecurity and leave it out of the discussion about Han Solo: A star Wars Story.

@Manchu — You could have saved yourself all that typing and just said “burn the witch.” Clearly anything more nuanced will be chalked up as “rhetorical gymnastics.”

Look, usually you have something interesting to say on topics, even when I don’t agree with you. But you’re holding on way too tightly with this SW stuff, and it’s just become far too difficult discussing any of it with you without things getting weird and ranty. What you want is an echo chamber. I’m not about to provide that, so I’m done here.

Your thinking on this issue is seriously compromised. I have not even said that Kathleen Kennedy should be fired much less called her a witch that should be burnt, whatever that is supposed to mean. I think you are using weasel words to willfully confuse legitimate criticism with misogyny - maybe to paint me as the bad guy, maybe to excuse your own convoluted attempt to argue simulatenously that Solo was poor movie but also that Kennedy somehow deserves praise for mismangaing its production, marketing, and release. And again, all of this stems from your own incredulous question - "WTF was up with hiring Lord and Miller in the first place?" Instead of jumping to the defense of the person who should answer your own question, which is exactly the correct question, why not actually address it?

Nothing I've written at all suggests I want an "echo chamber" but if you need cover to run away from bending over backwards to bizarrely hold Solo in contempt at the same time as arguing the person resposnible for its failure deserves credit, then I guess it's as good an excuse as any.

 Manchu wrote:
Your thinking on this issue is seriously compromised. I have not even said that Kathleen Kennedy should be fired much less called her a witch that should be burnt, whatever that is supposed to mean. I think you are using weasel words to willfully confuse legitimate criticism with misogyny - maybe to paint me as the bad guy, maybe to excuse your own convoluted attempt to argue simulatenously that Solo was poor movie but also that Kennedy somehow deserves praise for mismangaing its production, marketing, and release. And again, all of this stems from your own incredulous question - "WTF was up with hiring Lord and Miller in the first place?" Instead of jumping to the defense of the person who should answer your own question, which is exactly the correct question, why not actually address it?

Nothing I've written at all suggests I want an "echo chamber" but if you need cover to run away from bending over backwards to bizarrely hold Solo in contempt at the same time as arguing the person resposnible for its failure deserves credit, then I guess it's as good an excuse as any.

He was saying its not black and white. You can do things right while also doing some things wrong. They are not mutually exclusive.

That's a non sequitur. We aren't talking about whether Ron Howard successfully saved Solo as a movie - I obviously think he did but just as obviously Gorgon is not convinced. Rather, the point to hand was the origin of the garbage fire Howard was hired to put out, i.e., Kennedy hiring Lord and Miller. It doesn't matter whether Kennedy or Bob Iger or whoever eventually had to turn to Howard to salvage hundreds of millions of dollars of investment. The actual issue is, how did this catastrophe ever get rolling?

Did I ask this before, that since it’s obvious what kind of style Lord & Miller would bring to the movie, why where they even approached in the first place?

It's a great question. And it needs to be contextualized with the larger picture of late TFA reshoots, sidelining Gareth Edwards and putting Tony Gilroy in charge of reshooting large sections of Rogue One, and firing Colin Treverrow from Episode VIII. Speaking about the state of R1 before he came aboard, Gilroy said "they were in so much terrible, terrible, trouble that all you could do was improve their position." (BTW, he credited Iger rather than Kennedy for gambling on reshoots to save the picture.) I think Gorgon is totally right to use the expression "WTF" regarding Lord and Miller. But stepping back, I would also say more broadly WTF has been going on at LucasFilm?

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Except for all the racist and sexists tweets to her twitter account. It wasn't *a* racist or sexist, it was a quite a few of them, who felt the best way to deal with their personal problems was to publically throw their issues at her via twitter. So... this 'no evidence' nonsense you're spouting is just incorrect.

Except now you're back to implying that those - what, dozen? two dozen? - racist sexist bigots are somehow representative of everyone who didn't like TLJ.

Not at all. I'm saying sirlynchmob's sudden narrative that those tweets didn't happen is blatantly untrue. *I* didn't like TLJ, because Johnson is a talentless hack at both writing and directing and produced a fairly crap movie. It has zero to do with race or gender.

But at the same time there is also no reason to ignore the actual fact that a lot of racist and sexist idiots are seizing on it as an excuse to vent about their worthless opinions. Or pretend, as that post did, that racist and sexist things didn't happen. Tran was targeted for being an Asian woman in a film a pile of idiots didn't like. Rather than just accepting the fact that they didn't like the film, like reasonable people, they lashed out at people bashed on their bigotry. That makes them unreasonable people.

I'm not saying she didn't get racists or sexists tweets, I'm saying your assumption on why she left is wrong, as it has yet to be proven. None of what you posted has any evidence to support it. There was a call for evidence of this targeted harrasment, I didn't see any links yet.Where are the studies? are gamers more/less racist than the nation average? are star wars fans?

Where is Tran during all this? Let's hear it from her instead of others who are speaking for her. I'll take her word on the matter before numerous imaginary people on the internet who have no quotes directly from her.

 Manchu wrote:
It's a great question. And it needs to be contextualized with the larger picture of late TFA reshoots, sidelining Gareth Edwards and putting Tony Gilroy in charge of reshooting large sections of Rogue One, and firing Colin Treverrow from Episode VIII. Speaking about the state of R1 before he came aboard, Gilroy said "they were in so much terrible, terrible, trouble that all you could do was improve their position." (BTW, he credited Iger rather than Kennedy for gambling on reshoots to save the picture.) I think Gorgon is totally right to use the expression "WTF" regarding Lord and Miller. But stepping back, I would also say more broadly WTF has been going on at LucasFilm?

That's a very good point.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Except for all the racist and sexists tweets to her twitter account. It wasn't *a* racist or sexist, it was a quite a few of them, who felt the best way to deal with their personal problems was to publically throw their issues at her via twitter. So... this 'no evidence' nonsense you're spouting is just incorrect.

Except now you're back to implying that those - what, dozen? two dozen? - racist sexist bigots are somehow representative of everyone who didn't like TLJ.

Not at all. I'm saying sirlynchmob's sudden narrative that those tweets didn't happen is blatantly untrue. *I* didn't like TLJ, because Johnson is a talentless hack at both writing and directing and produced a fairly crap movie. It has zero to do with race or gender.

But at the same time there is also no reason to ignore the actual fact that a lot of racist and sexist idiots are seizing on it as an excuse to vent about their worthless opinions. Or pretend, as that post did, that racist and sexist things didn't happen. Tran was targeted for being an Asian woman in a film a pile of idiots didn't like. Rather than just accepting the fact that they didn't like the film, like reasonable people, they lashed out at people bashed on their bigotry. That makes them unreasonable people.

You know it works both ways right, loads of far left bigots have also latched onto and abused Star Wars fans/actors, if you accept one, you must accept the other.

Saddest thing of it all is us that are stuck in the middle, the twitter trolls and the SJW’s are causing so many issues, I wish both would just leave.

Nobody said right or left!

Why the feth are you bringing politics into it?

The political divide is not simply about social issues. There are sexists and racists on the left too. And even if there were not. Even if he DID say that it was right wing idiots who did this dumb thing, then who the feth cares if the left ALSO has idiots. Each side can be judged for their idiots individually without having to pay lip services to the other sides idiots in the same statement every time. Please, take your political insecurity and leave it out of the discussion about Han Solo: A star Wars Story.

I brought it into it did I, or does your rhetoric sound just like the far left fools who blame everything on “racism” or “sexism” without even attempting to understand context or intent.

If that’s not your intent, fine, it looks that way though.

 Formosa wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Except for all the racist and sexists tweets to her twitter account. It wasn't *a* racist or sexist, it was a quite a few of them, who felt the best way to deal with their personal problems was to publically throw their issues at her via twitter. So... this 'no evidence' nonsense you're spouting is just incorrect.

Except now you're back to implying that those - what, dozen? two dozen? - racist sexist bigots are somehow representative of everyone who didn't like TLJ.

Not at all. I'm saying sirlynchmob's sudden narrative that those tweets didn't happen is blatantly untrue. *I* didn't like TLJ, because Johnson is a talentless hack at both writing and directing and produced a fairly crap movie. It has zero to do with race or gender.

But at the same time there is also no reason to ignore the actual fact that a lot of racist and sexist idiots are seizing on it as an excuse to vent about their worthless opinions. Or pretend, as that post did, that racist and sexist things didn't happen. Tran was targeted for being an Asian woman in a film a pile of idiots didn't like. Rather than just accepting the fact that they didn't like the film, like reasonable people, they lashed out at people bashed on their bigotry. That makes them unreasonable people.

You know it works both ways right, loads of far left bigots have also latched onto and abused Star Wars fans/actors, if you accept one, you must accept the other.

Saddest thing of it all is us that are stuck in the middle, the twitter trolls and the SJW’s are causing so many issues, I wish both would just leave.

Nobody said right or left!

Why the feth are you bringing politics into it?

The political divide is not simply about social issues. There are sexists and racists on the left too. And even if there were not. Even if he DID say that it was right wing idiots who did this dumb thing, then who the feth cares if the left ALSO has idiots. Each side can be judged for their idiots individually without having to pay lip services to the other sides idiots in the same statement every time. Please, take your political insecurity and leave it out of the discussion about Han Solo: A star Wars Story.

I brought it into it did I, or does your rhetoric sound just like the far left fools who blame everything on “racism” or “sexism” without even attempting to understand context or intent.

If that’s not your intent, fine, it looks that way though.

It's not. I have been described by a friend as a tyrannical libertarian (in that I think everyone should leave each other the feth alone and the government should live in absolute fear of it's people).

For every idiot on the left who screams about problems while suggesting solutions that have no fundamental basis in reality and no chance of ever actually functioning on any level, there is an idiot on the right who who plugs his ears and pretends problems don't exist. Both camps are full of morons. They're both embarrassments. And everything wrong with the country is both of your faults. I am not far anything.

Also, there is no context or intent that can be taken from the racial slurr and sexists messages that have been tossed around that don't mean racism and sexism. There is no good context for calling Tran a bunch of Chinese hate words (while shes not even actually Chinese)

The intent is clear, to get a response, they got that, the context is clear here too, they thought it was funny.

We don’t...

If she did close her account due to these reasons then all she has done is embolden these trolls, nothing more, nothing less, they don’t give two craps about racism or sexism, they care about the lols, fanatics of another kind, Star Wars is just the excuse.

 Formosa wrote:
The intent is clear, to get a response, they got that, the context is clear here too, they thought it was funny.

We don’t...

If she did close her account due to these reasons then all she has done is embolden these trolls, nothing more, nothing less, they don’t give two craps about racism or sexism, they care about the lols, fanatics of another kind, Star Wars is just the excuse.

Who gives a gak?

What difference does it make whether the hate was sent somebodies way for bigotry or laughs? What difference does it make if the person caved under pressure or held their ground. The point is the people are monsters. Monsters Vulcan thinks are too insignificant to be worth mentioning and sirlynchmob thinks are actually a publicity stunt by KK. Remember when I mentioned that the one side likes to plug it's ears and pretend problems don't exist?

 Lance845 wrote:
I think you read to much into what I do for my own enjoyment.

Finding a diverse group of people who are going to talk a lot of different opinions is much better then sitting in a echo chamber listening only to people who agree. This isn't my own source or outlet for discussion. It's just one that I enjoy.

Up thread I said Fan was derived from (and in fact I said it was shorthand for) fanatic. I stand by that. I didn't say fanatics and the fandom are different. I said any community of fans breeds the toxic mindset that creates the situations we have seen. Thus fandoms are toxic. Not unlike the echo chambers I just mentioned.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to follow the sentences I am laying out without adding your own implications or misconstruing them.


Fact: Ass hole have done gakky things.

Fact. They did those gakky things to these people, at least in part, because they were a part of a movie they didn't like.

I never said everyone. I never said all. I never said every person who liked SW was a big piece of gak. I never said if you don't like TLJ or whatever that it HAD to be because you were a racist sexist bigot. I never said every person who chooses to label themselves a fan was a fanatic.

What I said was Fandoms were toxic. They breed toxic behavior. The people who did these gakky things are the consequence of people caring so much about something that matters so little that they feel entitled to be monsters to people because their "Insert fan focus" was "attacked" when it "wasn't good enough".



Kind of surprised this thread didn't just die. It should probably be locked since it's just repeating itself now. On the other hand if it IS locked it's just going to get someone to make ANOTHER SW thread and it will just move over there. Might as well keep it in one place.

No, you just repeated exactly what I said. The only difference is that now you contradict your statement about toxic fans being only a small part of the fandom. Now you say ALL fandom is toxic, period... which I suppose we could have all predicted.

Out of curiousity, what does Merriam-Webster say on the subject.

Fanatic: 1 : disapproving : a person exhibiting excessive enthusiasm and intense uncritical devotion toward some controversial matter (as in religion or politics) a religious fanatic [=extremist]
2 : a person who is extremely enthusiastic about and devoted to some interest or activity a boating/sports/racing fanatic She's a real fanatic when it comes to working out.

So your definition of "Fan" could easily fit the first definition, it does not address the second definition at all. So perhaps you can set down the overly broad brush for a moment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The intent is clear, to get a response, they got that, the context is clear here too, they thought it was funny.

We don’t...

If she did close her account due to these reasons then all she has done is embolden these trolls, nothing more, nothing less, they don’t give two craps about racism or sexism, they care about the lols, fanatics of another kind, Star Wars is just the excuse.

Who gives a gak?

What difference does it make whether the hate was sent somebodies way for bigotry or laughs? What difference does it make if the person caved under pressure or held their ground. The point is the people are monsters. Monsters Vulcan thinks are too insignificant to be worth mentioning and sirlynchmob thinks are actually a publicity stunt by KK. Remember when I mentioned that the one side likes to plug it's ears and pretend problems don't exist?

I never said they weren't worth mentioning. I just object to them being cast as a majority of those who don't like TLJ.

ONCE AGAIN, nobody said the majority of the people who did not like TLJ were racists or sexists. When somebody points at the racists and sexists and say THESE PEOPLE dont like TLJ because THEY are racist and sexist, it has nothing to do with you unless you somehow relate to and agree with them. The only person clumping regular detractors in with them, on this forum, is you lumping yourselves in with them.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It's a great question. And it needs to be contextualized with the larger picture of late TFA reshoots, sidelining Gareth Edwards and putting Tony Gilroy in charge of reshooting large sections of Rogue One, and firing Colin Treverrow from Episode VIII. Speaking about the state of R1 before he came aboard, Gilroy said "they were in so much terrible, terrible, trouble that all you could do was improve their position." (BTW, he credited Iger rather than Kennedy for gambling on reshoots to save the picture.) I think Gorgon is totally right to use the expression "WTF" regarding Lord and Miller. But stepping back, I would also say more broadly WTF has been going on at LucasFilm?

That's a very good point.

I feel like the problem facing Lucasfilm and Star Was in general is the proverbial "letting the kids run the candy store". The people being put in charge of it were kids during the earlier movies, and are now trying to recreate their childhood fantasies with the new movies, with all the problems that a ten-year-old's daydreams brings when trying craft cohesive, believable stories. That's why Solo was a bit of a letdown for me: it should have been a really good heist film set in the SW universe that just happened to have a young Han in it, but it focused far too much on explaining stuff about Han we either already knew or didn't really need to have explained.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The intent is clear, to get a response, they got that, the context is clear here too, they thought it was funny.

We don’t...

If she did close her account due to these reasons then all she has done is embolden these trolls, nothing more, nothing less, they don’t give two craps about racism or sexism, they care about the lols, fanatics of another kind, Star Wars is just the excuse.

Who gives a gak?

What difference does it make whether the hate was sent somebodies way for bigotry or laughs? What difference does it make if the person caved under pressure or held their ground. The point is the people are monsters. Monsters Vulcan thinks are too insignificant to be worth mentioning and sirlynchmob thinks are actually a publicity stunt by KK. Remember when I mentioned that the one side likes to plug it's ears and pretend problems don't exist?

It makes a massive difference, one is racist/sexist, the other is stupid and ignorant, if you don’t attempt to understand the reasons behind something, however repugnant, you will always fail to combat it, these people are not monsters, they are people, de humanising them also helps nothing and reinforces thier behaviour.

It could have been a publicity stunt just as much as it could be true, I’ve done the research and found no credible evidence either way, until tran herself makes a statement all either side has is conjecture and shouldn’t pretend otherwise.

Along the same vein as plugging your ears and pretending there is no problem, the other side plugs their ears and screams that there is, as I like to say
“Lack is evidence is not evidence”
If you want to insist tran was driven from twitter, you need to cite a credible source, no one is arguing she was targeted by trolls, that’s clearly apparent, people are arguing that we still don’t know what the reasons of her leaving are with any degree of certainty.

If you can address this first, it will stand you in good stead to make the assertions with credibility.

 Formosa wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The intent is clear, to get a response, they got that, the context is clear here too, they thought it was funny.

We don’t...

If she did close her account due to these reasons then all she has done is embolden these trolls, nothing more, nothing less, they don’t give two craps about racism or sexism, they care about the lols, fanatics of another kind, Star Wars is just the excuse.

Who gives a gak?

What difference does it make whether the hate was sent somebodies way for bigotry or laughs? What difference does it make if the person caved under pressure or held their ground. The point is the people are monsters. Monsters Vulcan thinks are too insignificant to be worth mentioning and sirlynchmob thinks are actually a publicity stunt by KK. Remember when I mentioned that the one side likes to plug it's ears and pretend problems don't exist?

It makes a massive difference, one is racist/sexist, the other is stupid and ignorant,

Racism and Sexism and all the bigotries ARE stupidity and ignorance.

if you don’t attempt to understand the reasons behind something, however repugnant, you will always fail to combat it, these people are not monsters, they are people, de humanising them also helps nothing and reinforces thier behaviour.

Sorry you feel that way. Hitler was a monster. The KKK are monsters. The alt-right are monsters. Anyone who lacks the basic empathy as an adult to move past their ignorance into some kind of basic human understanding is a monster. I don't have any particular issue with helping someone move away from being a monster into some semblance of being a human being. But, understanding why the West Burrows Baptist Church spews hate all over the place hasn't stopped them from doing it and if one day everyone involved in them died in some kind of fire the world would probably be a slightly better place.

It could have been a publicity stunt just as much as it could be true, I’ve done the research and found no credible evidence either way, until tran herself makes a statement all either side has is conjecture and shouldn’t pretend otherwise.

Ridiculous.

Along the same vein as plugging your ears and pretending there is no problem, the other side plugs their ears and screams that there is, as I like to say
“Lack is evidence is not evidence”
If you want to insist tran was driven from twitter, you need to cite a credible source, no one is arguing he was targeted by trolls, that’s clearly apparent, people are arguing that we still don’t know what the reasons of her leaving are with any degree of certainty.

Who cares if she was or was not driven from twitter? (Also, not that it matters, but wasn't it intagram?) I care SO LITTLE about Tran's actions since she hasn't done anything to hurt anyone. Tran isn't on trial here. She has nothing to answer for. What matters is the people whos comments and actions you can see that have been directed at her and others. Why are you worried about what Tran did? Who really gives a gak what her motivations were for HER actions. What matters is, regardless of whether it impacted her or not, people sent some horrific gak her way. For laughs or not doesn't matter. They did it.

If you can address this first, it will stand you in good stead to make the assertions with credibility.

I'm sorry if I ever gave you the impression otherwise, but your opinion of me means very little to me. In fact, it means nothing.

1: racism and sexism are not ignorance and stupidity, that’s your opinion and is not backed by facts, some very intelligent people are both.

2: hitler was a human, not a monster, we need to understand his very human goals and intentions in order to not repeat them, and no, someone who cannot move past thier ignorance is not a monster and again you should strive to understand them to better combat thier beliefs, or that is you showing ignorance, know your enemy in order to defeat them, make your enemy your friend in order to help them change, ignorance only leads to more ignorance.

3: you claim it’s ridiculous, so prove otherwise or concede the point that you don’t know and it’s just conjecture.

4: it matters as if she doesn’t care, there is no victim, if there is no victim then no one has been hurt and it’s all just empty words that we don’t agree with, they have freedom of speech, that includes all the horrible things we don’t like, the best thing to do with trolls is ignore them.

5: and here we have a perfect example of what I’m talking about, you are displaying an extremist mentality, black and white with no shades of grey, that’s not how the world works, it’s also displaying ignorance of the very kind you profess to find “montrous”, if you don’t like that, fine, I and others are not beholden you your feelings, you have no right to not be offended and also have no right to take offence for others.

If you cannot prove that Tran was personally affected by those comments, you have no credible reason to take offence on her behalf.

Racism and sexism are ignorance, as neither positions are supported by any evidence.

It is impossible to be a racist or a sexist without being ignorant.

 Formosa wrote:
1: racism and sexism are not ignorance and stupidity, that’s your opinion and is not backed by facts, some very intelligent people are both.

Please explain how someone could POSSIBLY be racist or sexist without being ignorant?

2: hitler was a human, not a monster, we need to understand his very human goals and intentions in order to not repeat them, and no, someone who cannot move past thier ignorance is not a monster and again you should strive to understand them to better combat thier beliefs, or that is you showing ignorance, know your enemy in order to defeat them, make your enemy your friend in order to help them change, ignorance only leads to more ignorance.

You don't combat ignorance by understanding ignorance. There is no reasoning with the unreasonable. You combat ignorance with education. The bigots refuse education.

3: you claim it’s ridiculous, so prove otherwise or concede the point that you don’t know and it’s just conjecture.

Sorry, you misunderstood. It's ridiculous that you are fighting for answers about why a woman left a social media. What a ridiculous hill to fight for.

4: it matters as if she doesn’t care, there is no victim, if there is no victim then no one has been hurt and it’s all just empty words that we don’t agree with, they have freedom of speech, that includes all the horrible things we don’t like, the best thing to do with trolls is ignore them.

They do in fact have freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. It just frees you from LEGAL consequence. There should absolutely be social and societal consequence.

5: and here we have a perfect example of what I’m talking about, you are displaying an extremist mentality, black and white with no shades of grey, that’s not how the world works, it’s also displaying ignorance of the very kind you profess to find “montrous”, if you don’t like that, fine, I and others are not beholden you your feelings, you have no right to not be offended and also have no right to take offence for others.

It's not extremist to see someone being racist and call them a racist. Correct, none of you are beholden to my feelings. Incorrect, I have every right to my own feelings and I can feel how ever I want about any situation I want to.

If you cannot prove that Tran was personally affected by those comments, you have no credible reason to take offence on her behalf.

I don't need Tran to be offended for me to be offended that racism is still a thing.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The intent is clear, to get a response, they got that, the context is clear here too, they thought it was funny.

We don’t...

If she did close her account due to these reasons then all she has done is embolden these trolls, nothing more, nothing less, they don’t give two craps about racism or sexism, they care about the lols, fanatics of another kind, Star Wars is just the excuse.

Who gives a gak?

What difference does it make whether the hate was sent somebodies way for bigotry or laughs? What difference does it make if the person caved under pressure or held their ground. The point is the people are monsters. Monsters Vulcan thinks are too insignificant to be worth mentioning and sirlynchmob thinks are actually a publicity stunt by KK. Remember when I mentioned that the one side likes to plug it's ears and pretend problems don't exist?

It is a possibility, just as likely as what you're pushing. It's also likely she quit to not risk spoiling anything from ep 9.

No tran doesn't owe anyone any answers, but instead of waiting to hear what hers actually is, you're made up one for her, mansplainging to the worst degree. I agree you're plugging your ears, pushing your imagination, and the truth be damned. I'd rather wait and hear the truth, and she's the only one who knows what the truth is.

So because racists exists you think ranting about them on a star wars topics helps? You're starting to act like the little boy trying to save holland, you got your finger in this one little place while the rest of the damn spews water.

quite the odd reaction from someone who claims he's not for anything. You have a odd way of leaving each other alone when you speak for others and slander everyone else. So live up to your claim and leave me out of your delusional rantings.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
1: racism and sexism are not ignorance and stupidity, that’s your opinion and is not backed by facts, some very intelligent people are both.

Please explain how someone could POSSIBLY be racist or sexist without being ignorant?

2: hitler was a human, not a monster, we need to understand his very human goals and intentions in order to not repeat them, and no, someone who cannot move past thier ignorance is not a monster and again you should strive to understand them to better combat thier beliefs, or that is you showing ignorance, know your enemy in order to defeat them, make your enemy your friend in order to help them change, ignorance only leads to more ignorance.

You don't combat ignorance by understanding ignorance. There is no reasoning with the unreasonable. You combat ignorance with education. The bigots refuse education.

3: you claim it’s ridiculous, so prove otherwise or concede the point that you don’t know and it’s just conjecture.

Sorry, you misunderstood. It's ridiculous that you are fighting for answers about why a woman left a social media. What a ridiculous hill to fight for.

4: it matters as if she doesn’t care, there is no victim, if there is no victim then no one has been hurt and it’s all just empty words that we don’t agree with, they have freedom of speech, that includes all the horrible things we don’t like, the best thing to do with trolls is ignore them.

They do in fact have freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. It just frees you from LEGAL consequence. There should absolutely be social and societal consequence.

5: and here we have a perfect example of what I’m talking about, you are displaying an extremist mentality, black and white with no shades of grey, that’s not how the world works, it’s also displaying ignorance of the very kind you profess to find “montrous”, if you don’t like that, fine, I and others are not beholden you your feelings, you have no right to not be offended and also have no right to take offence for others.

It's not extremist to see someone being racist and call them a racist. Correct, none of you are beholden to my feelings. Incorrect, I have every right to my own feelings and I can feel how ever I want about any situation I want to.

If you cannot prove that Tran was personally affected by those comments, you have no credible reason to take offence on her behalf.

I don't need Tran to be offended for me to be offended that racism is still a thing.

1: very simply, a well educated and intelligent person can still hate black people for example and be racist, they could know all the reason why not to, and still hate them, racism being only for the stupid and ignorant is frankly untrue and gives a free pass to those that are neither.

2: you exactly combat with ignorance with understanding, part of education is Bringing understanding, so glad you agree with me here.

3: it is neither ridiculous to want more information on a subject, nor to want to know why something happened, you demonstrate exactly why I want said info.

4: there are societal consequences, the legal system, if a crime has been committed then it should be reported and dealt with accordingly, I put no trust in “social” repercussions, mob rule and court of public opinion are poor alternatives.

5: it is extremist to call someone racist when you don’t actually know if they are racist, guilty until proven innocent eh? And yep you can feel how you please, but that’s where it ends, no one is forced to care how you feel and again you have no right to take offence for others, that’s their right.

Lastly, you haven’t proven racism, all you have said is racist comment were made, making racist comments does not make you racist, it’s infantile to think so, if your offended racism is still a thing then go and do something about it, I have, this just smacks of virtue signaling.

 Formosa wrote:

1: very simply, a well educated and intelligent person can still hate black people for example and be racist, they could know all the reason why not to, and still hate them, racism being only for the stupid and ignorant is frankly untrue and gives a free pass to those that are neither.

If you hate people despite accepting there is no reason to, you are stupid.

Guys please take this tangent to another thread, in the Off Topic subforum. Thanks!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Did I ask this before, that since it’s obvious what kind of style Lord & Miller would bring to the movie, why where they even approached in the first place?

I think because of connections one side, and because they wanted on their hands a number of directors "young" enough to be bullied into what the studio wants.
Who knows, maybe that crazy diamond of the Talented Mr. Johnson is doing everyting as a rebellion. The hero that we deserve