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Tyran wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The double fire was needed, but it plus the price cut was both lazy, silly and extreme.

From a datasheet pov the Leman Russ is fine, it just need some more tuning with its point cost.

Wait what?

The price cut was lazy. Silly, and extreme.
But Leman Russ' were bad.
So they just needed to change it's point cost.

... Down, right? By giving it a... Price... Cut...

!??!?!?!

Except that they also gave it the rule to fire its main weapon twice, which is a quite massive buff by itself.
Unless you are arguing that even with the double fire the Leman Russ is still bad.

Not bad, but perhaps adequate. It's telling that they don't find their way into competitive lists.

Shining spears are as bad as, if not worse than, reapers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The double fire was needed, but it plus the price cut was both lazy, silly and extreme.

From a datasheet pov the Leman Russ is fine, it just need some more tuning with its point cost.

Wait what?

The price cut was lazy. Silly, and extreme.
But Leman Russ' were bad.
So they just needed to change it's point cost.

... Down, right? By giving it a... Price... Cut...

!??!?!?!

Except that they also gave it the rule to fire its main weapon twice, which is a quite massive buff by itself.
Unless you are arguing that even with the double fire the Leman Russ is still bad.

Not bad, but perhaps adequate. It's telling that they don't find their way into competitive lists.

Yep. They're playable now. They might even be good now. They're no Manticore, though.

They're good but manticores and basilisks outshine them for competitive play. Higher firepower guns that ignore line of sight is just too good this edition.

I say this as a guy who mostly runs russe's, if you told me I had to win a tournament tomorrow I'd be running basilisks and manticores. They're both cheaper than russe's too, which is not something to ignore either. And I run arguably one of the better traits for Leman Russ heavy armies as Valhallan, given mine can fight at full firepower with almost no wounds left and I have ways to shoot enemy units off of my tanks if they get caught in assault so they can still fire.

I feel it's pretty telling I had to build a list around my tanks to make them work against altaioc eldar and blood angels whereas if I just ran almost any other regiment the artillery is the better choice every time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leman Russ is affordable T8, so it can be spammed in a T8 wall. Marine T8 is all crazy overcosted. Granted, lots of weapons don't care about T8, but many do, especially S4.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat, Guard stuff is cheaper than Marines?

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TRAVESTY!?!

Sarcasm out of the way, when you try to paint it as though you 'only' have S4 to deal with T8...it makes your point even more laughable.

It's not about being cheaper, but well costed. Marine T8 is generally poorly costed.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leman Russ is affordable T8, so it can be spammed in a T8 wall. Marine T8 is all crazy overcosted. Granted, lots of weapons don't care about T8, but many do, especially S4.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat, Guard stuff is cheaper than Marines?

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TRAVESTY!?!

Sarcasm out of the way, when you try to paint it as though you 'only' have S4 to deal with T8...it makes your point even more laughable.

It's not about being cheaper, but well costed. Marine T8 is generally poorly costed.

Anyone else think I was painting that? S4 is twice as good against T7 as T8. And marines always have a ton of it. Makes T8 pretty hot. It also forces marines into a lascannon heavy niche instead of trying missile launchers or meltas.

Martel732 wrote:
It also forces marines into a lascannon heavy niche instead of trying missile launchers or meltas.

Every army has one or more things that force the opponent into some kind of niche.

Panzergraf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It also forces marines into a lascannon heavy niche instead of trying missile launchers or meltas.

Every army has one or more things that force the opponent into some kind of niche.

I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

Martel732 wrote:

I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

I don't have any admech in my area, so I can't speak to them, but otherwise, T4 3+ DEFINES the meta, at least around here. Anytime I've put together a list in the four editions I've been playing this game, be it for a Imperium, Tau, or Tyranid army, the FIRST question I've always asked myself is "Does it kill marines?" After that it's usually "Does it kill the flavor of the month?" Talking with people I play against, I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Killing marines is literally the litmus test for whether an army list sees the light of day. That's your army's biggest weakness. It always has been.

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

I don't have any admech in my area, so I can't speak to them, but otherwise, T4 3+ DEFINES the meta, at least around here. Anytime I've put together a list in the four editions I've been playing this game, be it for a Imperium, Tau, or Tyranid army, the FIRST question I've always asked myself is "Does it kill marines?" After that it's usually "Does it kill the flavor of the month?" Talking with people I play against, I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Killing marines is literally the litmus test for whether an army list sees the light of day. That's your army's biggest weakness. It always has been.

I mean. Lasguns kill marines.

What list doesn't kill marines? And I don't mean, what kind of list struggles to deal with Gulliman and his Razorbacks, but, what possible list struggles to deal with a bunch of toughness 4, 3+ save dudes everyone widely regards to be overpointed, have traits that don't apply globally, and some pretty meh stratagems?

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

I don't have any admech in my area, so I can't speak to them, but otherwise, T4 3+ DEFINES the meta, at least around here. Anytime I've put together a list in the four editions I've been playing this game, be it for a Imperium, Tau, or Tyranid army, the FIRST question I've always asked myself is "Does it kill marines?" After that it's usually "Does it kill the flavor of the month?" Talking with people I play against, I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Killing marines is literally the litmus test for whether an army list sees the light of day. That's your army's biggest weakness. It always has been.

I don't think that's true at all in 8th. So many things kills marines well that other units are a true consideration. Anything that can remove guardsmen even remotely well will do even better against marines. There's no reason for meqs to be any kind of litmus test in 8th.

Martel732 wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It also forces marines into a lascannon heavy niche instead of trying missile launchers or meltas.

Every army has one or more things that force the opponent into some kind of niche.

I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

Marines do kind of force people into a niche in that weapons with an AP are vastly better than weapons without (AP-1 is twice as effective as AP- against a model with 3+ armour in cover), and Primaris infantry-spam makes damage a weird proposition (because there are so many 2W models that you really want D2 weapons, but anything more than that is pointless).

AdMech don't force anyone into a niche by virtue of having no good skew builds (an effective AdMech army always has a range of different kinds of targets), and Grey Knights don't force anyone into a niche by virtue of being relentlessly terrible against pretty much everything.

However: this entire discussion is kind of pointless because being "forced into a niche" is a thing that depends on your local meta. My FLGS doesn't have a lot of Guard players so I'm not forced into an S9 niche, but it does have a lot of Primaris-infantry players which makes the D2 niche a thing I have to think about.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leman Russ is affordable T8, so it can be spammed in a T8 wall. Marine T8 is all crazy overcosted. Granted, lots of weapons don't care about T8, but many do, especially S4.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat, Guard stuff is cheaper than Marines?

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TRAVESTY!?!

Sarcasm out of the way, when you try to paint it as though you 'only' have S4 to deal with T8...it makes your point even more laughable.

It's not about being cheaper, but well costed. Marine T8 is generally poorly costed.

And?
Chimeras are poorly costed.
Sentinels(both flavors) are poorly costed.
Ogryn are poorly costed.

"Marine T8" consists of Land Raiders, Vindicators, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and Repulsors...
If you really wanted to make a point you could have just said that "The Marine book has several items that are poorly costed"--and I likely would have agreed with you. Instead you chose to cherrypick the highest Toughness items in the Marine armory to make a statement.

Realistically, one has to factor in that BS4+ for Guard tanks. It does hurt when it basically is always going to be BS5+ in any kind of competitive environment(who's going to take anything other than a -1 to hit racial rule?).

Martel732 wrote:I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

AdMech absolutely has those things.

They just won't generally see the table thanks to the fact that other options are much stronger and things that previously made a big difference(Onagers being able to go from a 6+ Invulnerable to a 4+ when in groups of 3 for example) are capped out.

Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
...I mean. Lasguns kill marines...

Note for the record: Lasguns kill Marines because of FRF/SRF and incredibly cheap bodies, not because S3/AP- kills Marines. If my AdMech army puts down radium carbines and flechette blasters (where I'm paying 8pts/model for three shots or 26pts/model for five shots (at BS3+), as opposed to Guard's 4pts/model for 2/4 shots (at BS4+)) I might as well not bother rolling the dice because they never do anything.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

152 points is spammable in your mind? Really?

Bear in mind that is for a LRBT with:
1x Battle Cannon(turret)
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Yeah, that's a real terrifying beast...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

I mean. Lasguns kill marines.

What list doesn't kill marines? And I don't mean, what kind of list struggles to deal with Gulliman and his Razorbacks, but, what possible list struggles to deal with a bunch of toughness 4, 3+ save dudes everyone widely regards to be overpointed, have traits that don't apply globally, and some pretty meh stratagems?

Really, especially anymore? I guess not too much. That's probably the biggest problem with 8th. It's kind of just turned into the "cram as much plasma as you can and then fill the rest up with bodies with small arms".

It still holds true to a certain extent. I'm prepared for just about anything you could pull out of a marine codex. Any other army, and all at the same time? Probably not so much, otherwise I'd be making netlists.

If there's one "problem" I admit some of the Guard tanks have, it's that they now can hit single models many times with weapons that were previously Blast. But that's a problem with how the new 8th ed Blast rules are implemented, not really with the tanks themselves.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
...I mean. Lasguns kill marines...

Note for the record: Lasguns kill Marines because of FRF/SRF and incredibly cheap bodies, not because S3/AP- kills Marines. If my AdMech army puts down radium carbines and flechette blasters (where I'm paying 8pts/model for three shots or 26pts/model for five shots (at BS3+), as opposed to Guard's 4pts/model for 2/4 shots (at BS4+)) I might as well not bother rolling the dice because they never do anything.

Further note for the record:
Radium Carbines are on an 8pt/model unit that is a 4+ save with a 6+ Invulnerable Save and the potential ability to cancel out any enemy bonus saves if they're in cover(Omnispex) BS4+ with the ability to get +1 to their Hit rolls thanks to the Protector Doctrina Imperative(possibly even +2 if they take an Enhanced Data-Tether instead of an Omnispex--for once it's actually worthwhile!) and are 3 shots, static, at 18" range. Also if you roll 6s to Wound, it inflicts 2 damage instead of 1.
Flechette Blasters are unfortunate right now though, aside from the fact that they're Pistols so can be used closer in.

Realistically, the reasons that Lasguns work well against Marines?
1) Weight of Fire
2) Weight of Fire
3) Weight of Fire
Those Guard doing 2/4 shots are at 24/12 inches (respectively) and can be wiped by return fire.

I'll totally 100% support a further price drop on Rangers and Vanguard if we restrict them to 10 man squads only though. It'd only be fair.

Martel732 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'd disagree with this. Strongly. Ademch, GK, marines lack these things.

I don't have any admech in my area, so I can't speak to them, but otherwise, T4 3+ DEFINES the meta, at least around here. Anytime I've put together a list in the four editions I've been playing this game, be it for a Imperium, Tau, or Tyranid army, the FIRST question I've always asked myself is "Does it kill marines?" After that it's usually "Does it kill the flavor of the month?" Talking with people I play against, I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Killing marines is literally the litmus test for whether an army list sees the light of day. That's your army's biggest weakness. It always has been.

I don't think that's true at all in 8th. So many things kills marines well that other units are a true consideration. Anything that can remove guardsmen even remotely well will do even better against marines. There's no reason for meqs to be any kind of litmus test in 8th.

The main reason Marines are a litmus test is because they're so incredibly common, even when they're not that good. If I remember right arent half the codexes in the game marine codwxes of some flavor? That's a pretty good reason to make sure you should be able to beat Marines when youre writing a list.

Which has always been a marine weakness. Everyone expects them because unless you just have a very weird meta somebody will run them. Whereas not every meta has an infantry guard player, or a dark eldar player, or an Ork green tide, or a nid monster mash, etc. GW obviously thinks this too given that for the longest time every single codex had a "marine killer" weapon that was clearly meant to kill Marines but was generally overcosted for what it did.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

To be very honest, you sound like you're sick of 40k - or possibly just the last edition or two.

Is it worth taking a break, either from the game or from Dakka? I honestly can't remember the last positive post I've seen from you, and that much negativity about a hobby can't be good for you, dude.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

152 points is spammable in your mind? Really?

Bear in mind that is for a LRBT with:
1x Battle Cannon(turret)
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Yeah, that's a real terrifying beast...

In a marine list it's not spammable - that's part of why the nerf is important. Not to mention they can't take 3 for 1 slot. Not that it always matters, but it can.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

152 points is spammable in your mind? Really?

Bear in mind that is for a LRBT with:
1x Battle Cannon(turret)
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Yeah, that's a real terrifying beast...

You don't see a problem with a T8 12w platform firing 2d6 S8 -2AP D3dmg shots a turn that is obsec and receives Doctrines benefits for 152 points?

It's quite normal to see any IG list with at least 6 of these fit comfortably in a 2000pt list with plenty of room to spare for the rest. They are definitely easily spammable.

Either they need a points increase or Grinding Advance needs to change.

No, he doesn't. Insert half-baked reason.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

152 points is spammable in your mind? Really?

Bear in mind that is for a LRBT with:
1x Battle Cannon(turret)
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Yeah, that's a real terrifying beast...

You don't see a problem with a T8 12w platform firing 2d6 S8 -2AP D3dmg shots a turn that is obsec and receives Doctrines benefits for 152 points?

Point of fact:
You do not get ObSec Leman Russes in normal Detachments. Have you read what Defenders of Humanity does?

Defenders of Humanity text. Page 132 of C: Astra Militarum wrote:...all Leman Russ units in Spearhead Detachments gain this ability.

And honestly? No. I don't see a huge problem with it since it's BS4+ and the Doctrinal benefit is questionable for some.

You're also forgetting that said platform is sitting on a 3+ save with a bit where it can potentially deal D3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6" when it is destroyed.

It's quite normal to see any IG list with at least 6 of these fit comfortably in a 2000pt list with plenty of room to spare for the rest. They are definitely easily spammable.
Either they need a points increase or Grinding Advance needs to change.

*shrug* Lots of things are 'easily spammable'. Not my problem that people still haven't adapted to dealing with vehicles having armor saves.

You do not get ObSec Leman Russes in normal Detachments. Have you read what Defenders of Humanity does?

Defenders of Humanity text. Page 132 of C: Astra Militarum wrote:...all Leman Russ units in Spearhead Detachments gain this ability.

Yes, I have. True, however in reality though, I have never seen a LR unit in anything but a Spearhead detachment. With how easy it is for IG to farm up CP's you would put them in a Spearhead anyway, to do anything otherwise would be a waste.

And honestly? No. I don't see a huge problem with it since it's BS4+ and the Doctrinal benefit is questionable for some.
You're also forgetting that said platform is sitting on a 3+ save with a bit where it can potentially deal D3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6" when it is destroyed.

BS4+ yes, but weight of fire getting to shoot twice for free certainly offsets that, Grinding Advance is obnoxious and needs to be addressed. Doctrines, and any player with half a brain would make that Spearhead either Cadia or Catachan which buff an already cheap platform - for free.

3+ save and D3 Mortal Wounds when destroyed... like almost every other vehicle in the game? If that's your negative counterbalance to the unit..

you do realize a spear head of 4 leman russes comes in at under 700 points right? Hell you can fit a spearhead with a CC and three in at under 500

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
...I mean. Lasguns kill marines...

Note for the record: Lasguns kill Marines because of FRF/SRF and incredibly cheap bodies, not because S3/AP- kills Marines. If my AdMech army puts down radium carbines and flechette blasters (where I'm paying 8pts/model for three shots or 26pts/model for five shots (at BS3+), as opposed to Guard's 4pts/model for 2/4 shots (at BS4+)) I might as well not bother rolling the dice because they never do anything.

Further note for the record:
Radium Carbines are on an 8pt/model unit that is a 4+ save with a 6+ Invulnerable Save and the potential ability to cancel out any enemy bonus saves if they're in cover(Omnispex) BS4+ with the ability to get +1 to their Hit rolls thanks to the Protector Doctrina Imperative(possibly even +2 if they take an Enhanced Data-Tether instead of an Omnispex--for once it's actually worthwhile!) and are 3 shots, static, at 18" range. Also if you roll 6s to Wound, it inflicts 2 damage instead of 1.
Flechette Blasters are unfortunate right now though, aside from the fact that they're Pistols so can be used closer in.

Realistically, the reasons that Lasguns work well against Marines?
1) Weight of Fire
2) Weight of Fire
3) Weight of Fire
Those Guard doing 2/4 shots are at 24/12 inches (respectively) and can be wiped by return fire.

I'll totally 100% support a further price drop on Rangers and Vanguard if we restrict them to 10 man squads only though. It'd only be fair.

Hey that's the way I wanna run Rangers and Vanguard. I'm fine with their price point but not their mobility options. The difference is Infantry don't really need to move as they're a cheaper screen anyway and punish you for getting close. Killing 10 Guys at their price mark is harder than the 5 at their price mark, but heaven forbid the latter can get into a range to use their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right. I'm just so sick of cheap T8.

152 points is spammable in your mind? Really?

Bear in mind that is for a LRBT with:
1x Battle Cannon(turret)
Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Yeah, that's a real terrifying beast...

You don't see a problem with a T8 12w platform firing 2d6 S8 -2AP D3dmg shots a turn that is obsec and receives Doctrines benefits for 152 points?

Point of fact:
You do not get ObSec Leman Russes in normal Detachments. Have you read what Defenders of Humanity does?

Defenders of Humanity text. Page 132 of C: Astra Militarum wrote:...all Leman Russ units in Spearhead Detachments gain this ability.

And honestly? No. I don't see a huge problem with it since it's BS4+ and the Doctrinal benefit is questionable for some.

You're also forgetting that said platform is sitting on a 3+ save with a bit where it can potentially deal D3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6" when it is destroyed.

It's quite normal to see any IG list with at least 6 of these fit comfortably in a 2000pt list with plenty of room to spare for the rest. They are definitely easily spammable.
Either they need a points increase or Grinding Advance needs to change.

*shrug* Lots of things are 'easily spammable'. Not my problem that people still haven't adapted to dealing with vehicles having armor saves.

Honestly if you think the potential explosion is REALLY a down side (What is it, on a 6?) that's a personal problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
you do realize a spear head of 4 leman russes comes in at under 700 points right? Hell you can fit a spearhead with a CC and three in at under 500

Do that twice and grab your brigade with a bunch of Scions. Profit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
...I mean. Lasguns kill marines...

Note for the record: Lasguns kill Marines because of FRF/SRF and incredibly cheap bodies, not because S3/AP- kills Marines. If my AdMech army puts down radium carbines and flechette blasters (where I'm paying 8pts/model for three shots or 26pts/model for five shots (at BS3+), as opposed to Guard's 4pts/model for 2/4 shots (at BS4+)) I might as well not bother rolling the dice because they never do anything.

Further note for the record:
Radium Carbines are on an 8pt/model unit that is a 4+ save with a 6+ Invulnerable Save and the potential ability to cancel out any enemy bonus saves if they're in cover(Omnispex) BS4+ with the ability to get +1 to their Hit rolls thanks to the Protector Doctrina Imperative(possibly even +2 if they take an Enhanced Data-Tether instead of an Omnispex--for once it's actually worthwhile!) and are 3 shots, static, at 18" range. Also if you roll 6s to Wound, it inflicts 2 damage instead of 1.
Flechette Blasters are unfortunate right now though, aside from the fact that they're Pistols so can be used closer in.

Realistically, the reasons that Lasguns work well against Marines?
1) Weight of Fire
2) Weight of Fire
3) Weight of Fire
Those Guard doing 2/4 shots are at 24/12 inches (respectively) and can be wiped by return fire.

I'll totally 100% support a further price drop on Rangers and Vanguard if we restrict them to 10 man squads only though. It'd only be fair.

Hey that's the way I wanna run Rangers and Vanguard. I'm fine with their price point but not their mobility options. The difference is Infantry don't really need to move as they're a cheaper screen anyway and punish you for getting close. Killing 10 Guys at their price mark is harder than the 5 at their price mark, but heaven forbid the latter can get into a range to use their weapons...

Touch my sixty-point backfield arquebus teams at your peril.

(More seriously: I feel like Rangers are in a good place, it's just that Vanguard are too short-ranged, too slow to keep up with the rest of my forward elements (I run Dragoons, a Cerastus, and Stygies-Infiltrating Electro-Priests), and never really seem to contribute more than spending the points on more Rangers would. If they got dropped to parity with Rangers at 7pts and I could stick twenty in a Triarios (assuming said Triarios was properly-costed/tough enough/had enough guns) I'd be happier with them.)

 NurglesR0T wrote:

You do not get ObSec Leman Russes in normal Detachments. Have you read what Defenders of Humanity does?

Defenders of Humanity text. Page 132 of C: Astra Militarum wrote:...all Leman Russ units in Spearhead Detachments gain this ability.

Yes, I have. True, however in reality though, I have never seen a LR unit in anything but a Spearhead detachment. With how easy it is for IG to farm up CP's you would put them in a Spearhead anyway, to do anything otherwise would be a waste.

Doesn't change the fact that it's not just "ObSec Leman Russes". Specifics matter.

And honestly? No. I don't see a huge problem with it since it's BS4+ and the Doctrinal benefit is questionable for some.
You're also forgetting that said platform is sitting on a 3+ save with a bit where it can potentially deal D3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6" when it is destroyed.

BS4+ yes, but weight of fire getting to shoot twice for free certainly offsets that, Grinding Advance is obnoxious and needs to be addressed. Doctrines, and any player with half a brain would make that Spearhead either Cadia or Catachan which buff an already cheap platform - for free.

Cadia's benefit(reroll hit rolls of 1) requires you to stay motionless--which isn't really a 'downside' for Guard, but still it is one.

Catachan's bonus was just dumb. No arguments there.

3+ save and D3 Mortal Wounds when destroyed... like almost every other vehicle in the game? If that's your negative counterbalance to the unit..

Difference being that how many units might be in range of that Leman Russ?

*shrug* Lots of things are 'easily spammable'. Not my problem that people still haven't adapted to dealing with vehicles having armor saves.

Indeed. Lots are. and the easily spammable units are ones that need to be addressed, not just LR to be fair. But to say they are not cost effective for what they are is disingenuous.

Never said they weren't cost-effective, but let's stop pretending that the 'stock' Leman Russ is going to be destroying tables in and of itself with nothing but a Battle Cannon and HB.

Sound fair?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
you do realize a spear head of 4 leman russes comes in at under 700 points right? Hell you can fit a spearhead with a CC and three in at under 500

K.

Now, what benefit does that Company Commander give to your tanks?