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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake have you read the rest of the thread? Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant.

Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'. If this wasn't the case I could move units after reinforcing, since they also move 'during' the phase.

I disagree on both points. The end of something can refer to a point after the main body has passed. For example, the end of a movie is after the main content of the movie has completed. The same with phases. Have you completed the main body of the phase? Yes, then go onto the end of the phase actions. No, then complete the main body of the phase.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
With regards your revolting regeneration stratagem example above, it entirely depends on the specific circumstances around which it can be played. If it says something along the lines of; "Whenever this model loses a wound you may..." then you can play it. If it says "On your turn, if your model has lost a wound...." then you can't etc

It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".

Revolting Regeneration is specifically a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem. I wanted to understand Doctortom's argument better and what was allowed within the limits of the "end". Hence the example.

Englishman, let's take your comment "Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant. Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'". Strategic Discipline says "The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase". Ergo, by all accounts you should allow your opponents in matched play to use Auspex multiple times in the same movement "end phase" as they occur at the end of the phase and not during.

The body of a phase dosnt mean anything im afraid its a subjective view point primarly used in essay writing. Or another way your end part can be completly diffrent to somebody else,

just as the phrase "at the end of" can be subjective depending on weather you read it literally or figuratively




Automatically Appended Next Post:
What we do know is that unless we trigger somthing to happen the game continues on in a loop .

So at the end of is a trigger that forces the game into that moment. So only things that happen within the confines of the trigger can happen.

ian wrote:
The body of a phase dosnt mean anything im afraid its a subjective view point primarly used in essay writing. Or another way your end part can be completly diffrent to somebody else,

just as the phrase "at the end of" can be subjective depending on weather you read it literally or figuratively

Sure, and I think the best thing to do is to come to an understanding that has the least unexpected rules interactions and implications.

For clarity, when I'm talking about the main body of the phases, I'm talking about what is listed under each phase header in the BRB. I think this is a reasonable enough definition and is easily quantifiable, although as you duly note it is subjective.

ian wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
What we do know is that unless we trigger somthing to happen the game continues on in a loop .

So at the end of is a trigger that forces the game into that moment. So only things that happen within the confines of the trigger can happen.

If I am to understand your previous arguments (an I believe your are alluding to them with this post) If the end of a phase is not during the phase, what do you make of being able to use the same "at the end of the X phase" Stratagems within one end phase in matched play? For example, you have 3 units arrive in reserve at the end of the movement phase, and I activate Auspex 3 times in response to each unit arriving.


*Updated with quote and response to Ian's appended post*

JakeSiren wrote:
Englishman, let's take your comment "Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant. Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'". Strategic Discipline says "The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase". Ergo, by all accounts you should allow your opponents in matched play to use Auspex multiple times in the same movement "end phase" as they occur at the end of the phase and not during.

We aren't here to discuss dictionary definitions. Words like "at the end" and "during" are given new meaning given the context of the rules.

I'm going to answer your question above with something I posted back on page 4 that I think covers it and could've saved this topic another 4 pages of kinda pointless discussion;

Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.

The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".

The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.

They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.

You play Auspex when the rules on the stratagem allow you to play it. If it says during the phase, you do it then. If it says at the end of the phase you do it then instead. If it doesn't give any criteria and is a response to something else you play it as stated.

Like I've said what feels like 100 times now in this thread; GW have differentiated between "during" and "at the end of" the phase by virtue of the reinforcement rules. As this differentiation exists any stratagems that can be played "during" cannot be played at the end and vice versa. It doesn't matter that the Oxford dictionary definition of during can extend to something at the end. This is not what we're here to discuss. The context of the rules precludes this definition, in this instance.

JakeSiren, if you don't wish to read the rest of the thread, perhaps try this thought experiment. Its a change of framework/perspective.

It seems as if you are asking the question "do I have permission to use this stratagem during a specific time?". This includes determining when "during" happens, if "the end of phase" is also "during", etc. A few of us in this thread think this question is not as important as the following question.

Perhaps ask "what am I allowed to do after my 'end of phase' actions?". A few of us here think that you shouldn't be allowed to do anything; including actions that state "during" the phase (regardless of definition). We proposed that once you simultaneously complete all your actions that specifically ask to be done at the end of the phase, your turn is over. Interweaving "during", or anything else, is against the rules, because if you do: your end of phase actions did not end the phase.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Englishman, let's take your comment "Arguing whether during is part of (or not) the end of the phase is irrelevant. Logic dictates it is clearly before 'the end of the phase'". Strategic Discipline says "The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase". Ergo, by all accounts you should allow your opponents in matched play to use Auspex multiple times in the same movement "end phase" as they occur at the end of the phase and not during.

We aren't here to discuss dictionary definitions. Words like "at the end" and "during" are given new meaning given the context of the rules.

I'm going to answer your question above with something I posted back on page 4 that I think covers it and could've saved this topic another 4 pages of kinda pointless discussion;

Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.

The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".

The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.

They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.

You play Auspex when the rules on the stratagem allow you to play it. If it says during the phase, you do it then. If it says at the end of the phase you do it then instead. If it doesn't give any criteria and is a response to something else you play it as stated.

Like I've said what feels like 100 times now in this thread; GW have differentiated between "during" and "at the end of" the phase by virtue of the reinforcement rules. As this differentiation exists any stratagems that can be played "during" cannot be played at the end and vice versa. It doesn't matter that the Oxford dictionary definition of during can extend to something at the end. This is not what we're here to discuss. The context of the rules precludes this definition, in this instance.

If my understanding and your understanding of "at the end" is different then it has different results. I think there have been a few posters that have demonstrated multiple differing understandings. So I disagree, it is useful.

Onto your response to my question. If I am to understand you correctly I am able to play any stratagem that occurs "at the end of the X phase" multiple times in matched play at the end of a single phase? Have I understood you correctly?

hollow one wrote:
JakeSiren, if you don't wish to read the rest of the thread, perhaps try this thought experiment. Its a change of framework/perspective.

It seems as if you are asking the question "do I have permission to use this stratagem during a specific time?". This includes determining when "during" happens, if "the end of phase" is also "during", etc. A few of us in this thread think this question is not as important as the following question.

Perhaps ask "what am I allowed to do after my 'end of phase' actions?". A few of us here think that you shouldn't be allowed to do anything; including actions that state "during" the phase (regardless of definition). We proposed that once you simultaneously complete all your actions that specifically ask to be done at the end of the phase, your turn is over. Interweaving "during", or anything else, is against the rules, because if you do: your end of phase actions did not end the phase.

I have read the whole thread, but I don't presume to remember all 210+ posts or the arguments contained within.

You have summed up what I am asking. And your follow up is a good question though, and I can see the point you are making.

As an interesting counter thought experiment, some armies have stratagems that allow them to fight again at the end of the fight phase. This can allow new units into combat that haven't already fought. Are these units allowed to fight, or are they denied because it is the end phase even though they would otherwise be eligible to fight.

As others have said it really needs an faq, i think the problem is related to using words that are primarly used for describing time.

We need to know what makes things start and end in order to be sure when somthing is happening or considered during

Some questions that i am pondering

Does starting the next phase end the other one ?
Does using a stratagem "at the end of " end the phase?
Does using a stratagem "at the end of" fix a point in time where you cannot go back?
Does using a stratagem "at the end of " effectivly freeze time until all those actions have been complete.
^ if so what happens when there complete what action happens next

However they cannot be answer in s definate way so ..........


I agree that the simplist way is to read "at the end " as a trigger that only allows these pre defined actions to happen, and i think aspex works because it is adding onto the action rather than being a new one

JakeSiren wrote:

I have read the whole thread, but I don't presume to remember all 210+ posts or the arguments contained within.

You have summed up what I am asking. And your follow up is a good question though, and I can see the point you are making.

As an interesting counter thought experiment, some armies have stratagems that allow them to fight again at the end of the fight phase. This can allow new units into combat that haven't already fought. Are these units allowed to fight, or are they denied because it is the end phase even though they would otherwise be eligible to fight.

Interesting counter. I would argue they are not allowed to fight, and it does strike me as odd that those stratagems are worded "end of", that seems intentional. In a different case, where the second activation of Berzerkers occurs "during" the fight phase, the opposing units would clearly be allowed. But I could be swayed with evidence, and it definitely poses a threat to breaking our interpretation of the rules.

I would also say they cannot fight as once the "end of" trigger has happened all of the eligible models have fought. And the berzerkers are performing a pre defined action rather than makimg a choice to fight like what happens in the fight phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you then have to ask the question does the phase end after all of the "end of" actions have been complete

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

JakeSiren wrote:

ian wrote:
End of can mean before or after the event and both is basic english .

I just double checked some dictionaries to make sure, but End is never used for after.

But, end does mean "end", and after the end would be after. Playing a stratagem in response to something that happened at the end of a phase would be after the phase.

Ok, let's assume that at the end refers to the instant end point in time for a phase etc. In general how do you play stratagems that say "at the end of your x phase"? You literally do not have time to declare that you are using them as the phase is already over by the time you have started speaking! Trying to declare any earlier is too early as it is not the end of the phase!

On a less facetious point: say I have a Nurgle Daemon Prince come in from reserves. My opponent uses Auspex to shoot at the Daemon Prince. Are you saying that I am unable to play "Revolting Regeneration" at the end of my movement phase in response to him losing wounds from the Auspex shooting? Even if there are other reserves coming in at the end of my movement after Auspex is resolved?

Or we can agree that "at the end of" is a phrase that is also used to refer to a period of time leading up to the end point? Ex: At the end of the match she scored a goal.

On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.

Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.

Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".

The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".

The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?

Not really, as I pointed out in the post above. You are trying to use a stratagem on something showing up at the end of the phase, which means it has to be there first (not simultaneous), which means you are trying to use the stratagem after the end of the phase.

The trouble is we dont know if everything shows up at the end similtaneously so in thoery you could use it after the first one even more so if it was 2 diffrent rules droping stuff in.

You could argue that once you have triggered "at the end of" means you cant go back to chose any units to move as that means its not the end anymore , however theres nothing to say that another stratagem cannot be used as part of the end as it does not mean your starting the movement phase again

I dont think thats correct but it is puasable

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".

The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?

Not really, as I pointed out in the post above. You are trying to use a stratagem on something showing up at the end of the phase, which means it has to be there first (not simultaneous), which means you are trying to use the stratagem after the end of the phase.

It only means that something has to be there first under one interpretation. You are simply asserting that the cannot occur simultaneously. The rules are silent on this issue. Nothing in the rules says that actions cannot occur simultaneously. In fact, it is acknowledged that some rules resolve simultaneously.

Part of the problem comes from the ambiguity of “end of the phase”. There are two completely valid interpretations.

To use an analogy, is the end of a pregnancy the birth of the child or is it Labor? The answer is, they are both th end of a pregnancy.

Many things can happen to affect the pregnancy during labor, but nothing can affect the pregnancy after the birth.

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It has no bearing on this discussion though which revolves around something that must be played "during the movement phase" and not "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase".

The implication of this statement seems to be that if CoF said "at the end of the movement phase" or "at any point in the movement phase", then it would be allowable. Is this correct?

Not really, as I pointed out in the post above. You are trying to use a stratagem on something showing up at the end of the phase, which means it has to be there first (not simultaneous), which means you are trying to use the stratagem after the end of the phase.

It only means that something has to be there first under one interpretation. You are simply asserting that the cannot occur simultaneously. The rules are silent on this issue. Nothing in the rules says that actions cannot occur simultaneously. In fact, it is acknowledged that some rules resolve simultaneously.

Part of the problem comes from the ambiguity of “end of the phase”. There are two completely valid interpretations.

To use an analogy, is the end of a pregnancy the birth of the child or is it Labor? The answer is, they are both th end of a pregnancy.

Many things can happen to affect the pregnancy during labor, but nothing can affect the pregnancy after the birth.

You are playing a stratagem on a unit that itsn't there before the end of the round. It must be there before you can play a stratagem on it. Therefore, it can't be simultaneous.. This is not one of those cases you assert where some rules resolve simultaneously. Sequencing will not apply in this case since it's not simultaneous, so you are trying to cast it after the unit arrived, which means you are trying to play the stratagem after the end of the round.

I've just finished watching the Netflix show "Dark" and it is significantly easier to understand than this interlocking web of arguments, counterarguments and changes in belief and perspective.

How did we get from discussing a rules question to a woman in labour?

I'm sure GW will FAQ the question so we can all get on with our lives. In my opinion (unsuprisingly) I think those of us who believe that the stratagem can't be played on reinforcements have a slightly stronger and more reasonable argument than the opposition, but I can see the arguments for both.

Shall we agree to wait on a FAQ for now ladies and gents?

If i deploy one unit such as raptor strike , then deploy another using assult drop ( not sure of name ) why do they happen at the same time ?

Its not unreasonable to say that i play the stratagem on the raptor strike as they are on the board and i still have diffrent rules to resovle

But again we stuck with not knowing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes i agree ive spent to much time on this , i will laugh if it dosnt get faq though , i can imagine this going on for years

 doctortom wrote:

On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.

Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.

Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.

The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?

For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?

As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


How did we get from discussing a rules question to a woman in labour?

Hahaha, It was all that came to mind! The wife just gave birth to our first last month, so its pretty much consumed my mind for the past 11 or so months.

I do hope everyone contributing has emailed the GW FAQ hotline? Will dramatically increase chances of an FAQ if the Q is actually FA!

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.

Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.

Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.

The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?

For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?

As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?

I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.

No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.

Why are were assuming that they happen at the same time after the sequencing rule triggers.

The sequencing rules state when 2 rules are to be worked out at the same time. A player choses the order the rules are worked out in.
I dont see any stipulation on how to decided the order,

Wouldnt it be valid to follow the way the rest of the game is and pick a unit complete pick another and complete.
Doing it this way would provide a way to use a during stratagem after a unit drops in.

Dosnt the rule that the player puts them in an order mean they are now effectivly not being worked out at the same time

I think its important that the word resovled does not mean complete, my understanding is that it means worked out, ( i brought this up as i could find no reference to complete in any where, so thinking of it this way could be considered inaccurate and misleading )

which means the squencing rule is not refering to stratagems that are completed at the same time , rather its stratagems that are triggered to be worked out at the same time and provides us with a way to put them in an order.

Edited for clarity

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.

Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.

Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.

The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?

For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?

As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?

I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.

No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.

Ok, so if I am to understand correctly you hold the belief that the end of the movement phase is during the movement phase? Based off that assumption:

There is clearly a time that you are allowed to declare that certain stratagems will be played at the end of the movement phase. If I understand your argument correctly you consider "at the end" to be an instant - all actions occurring simultaneously - hence sequencing plays a role in determining in what order rules will be resolved. If you have 2 deep strikers and 2 stratagems that you want to play you can determine the order of resolution.

Assuming the above is in line with your argument consider this: you declare Cloud of Flies when you would otherwise declare a stratagem. Part of the resolution of the Stratagem is to declare a target. Due to sequencing you are not required to resolve it immediately - or more specifically you can resolve other simultaneous actions first such as deep strikers. When you go to resolve the Stratagem that's when you need a valid target.

Yeah, no, you can't play a Stratagem on a unit *then* deploy its intended target. Not unless the Stratagem expressly allows you to target models off the board. That's quite apart from any sequencing shenanigans, it's just straight-up common sense.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah, no, you can't play a Stratagem on a unit *then* deploy its intended target. Not unless the Stratagem expressly allows you to target models off the board. That's quite apart from any sequencing shenanigans, it's just straight-up common sense.

Correct, but that's not what I said.

Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

JakeSiren wrote:

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.

Again it is irrelevant. GW have differentiated between during and end of the phase and one comes before the other.

I don't see why you keep discussing at the End of the phase stratagems and their repeated use. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.

Again it is irrelevant. GW have differentiated between during and end of the phase and one comes before the other.

I don't see why you keep discussing at the End of the phase stratagems and their repeated use. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.

Don\t see why not bearing. If strategem can be played only once during each phase and end of the phase is different from during the phase then logically it means strategems played at the end of phase can be multi used as you aren't multiusing during the phase.

GW. Got to love how they are incapable of writing anything so that it makes sense

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.

Again it is irrelevant. GW have differentiated between during and end of the phase and one comes before the other.

I don't see why you keep discussing at the End of the phase stratagems and their repeated use. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.

Don\t see why not bearing. If strategem can be played only once during each phase and end of the phase is different from during the phase then logically it means strategems played at the end of phase can be multi used as you aren't multiusing during the phase.

GW. Got to love how they are incapable of writing anything so that it makes sense

Exactly, tneva82 gets it. You either have the "end of the phase" as either during the phase or not during the phase. The Cloud of Flies says you may use it during the movement phase. The "Strategic Discipline" rule says a player cannot use the same stratagem during any single phase.

Either you say you can't use Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase as it's not during, and thus the restriction from Strategic Discipline is not in effect, or you say that you can use Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase as it is during, and thus the restriction from Strategic Discipline is in effect.

It's a question designed to get people to think about the rules and the implications of assuming a certain stance and applying it consistently throughout the rule set.

The question I posed to Doctortom was aimed at his assertion of an instantaneous end phase and being unable to play stratagems due to it, hence is why I went down the path of sequencing as to (what I consider) a viable way to play Cloud of Flies under those assumptions.