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Nids are brutal beyond description once dark reapers and guardsmen get patched. Heavy venom cannons are straight up unfair. It's just that even more unfair stuff is out there right now.

Ask a Necron Warrior.
A unit of 10 Warriors was able to strip hull points from any tank when penetrating on 6+ in the former editions.
Today, these guys are absolutely poor since tanks have 10-16 wounds and generally a 3+ save.

Martel732 wrote:
Nids are brutal beyond description once dark reapers and guardsmen get patched. Heavy venom cannons are straight up unfair. It's just that even more unfair stuff is out there right now.

I totally disagree with this statement.

What kind of list are you facing that actually uses these things, that puts out more damage than any other meta list?

Lists with 8 dakkafexes. That basically get free -1 to hit and free BS3+. On an assault weapon. That's better than a lascannon. Yeah, totally fair. Totally.

Martel732 wrote:
Lists with 8 dakkafexes. That basically get free -1 to hit and free BS3+. On an assault weapon. That's better than a lascannon. Yeah, totally fair. Totally.

1000 points in 8 models is a recipe for freaking disaster. You can't move up the field and screen them from all sides... and -1 only applies to shooting. A Lascannon actually has -3AP, so it's better than -2AP, and has a longer range, as well as a higher expected damage output. Additionally, these guys will be moving, and don't get access to rerolls like Lascannons do.

If this was a good deal, you'd be devoting 1000 points of your list to predators. Because predators would annihilate these Carnifex with no trouble, and are flat better. They'll get rerolls - hits AND 1 to wound. They'll get better screens in the form of IG. They'll be able to pop Carnifexes like it's going out of style.

Not to mention, you'll descent of angels and wholly neutralize at least 1 fex per turn.

If the Carnifex is OP, the predator tank is jesus on wheels.

Predators are more expensive, don't get -1 to hit, don't have assault lascannons and degrade. ANd have more expensive screening units. The fact that you can get 8 of these things for 1000 pts is nuts.

I don't know. I have had 0 problems facing lists regularly with 4-6 dakkafexes with my Dark Angels. Tyranid Guard with their weapon that ignore LOS are a much bigger problem for me.

Yeah, those are nasty, too, but seem tame compared to basilisk/manticore.

Flamers definitely need some adjustment, they're ridiculously expensive for what they do, especially heavy flamers.

Because Carnifex are decent but they always have to move, and moving models in Tyranid land can't get *any* rerolls of *any* kind that don't already have it baked into the unit or weapon profiles.

You are totally taking your rerolls for granted. If we could put a 74 point captain, and a 70 point Lieutenant in the middle of our Carnifex ball, and screen it with T3 5+ models that can receive orders, then yeah, i'd say they're too strong.

And seriously, 8 Carnifexes? How many sources of Synapse does this list have? that's what you should kill. Suddenly those Carnifex are going to be slower, and way more inaccurate.

This list will never be meta. If it became number 1, it would immediately be unseated by Tau commanders.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nids are brutal beyond description once dark reapers and guardsmen get patched. Heavy venom cannons are straight up unfair. It's just that even more unfair stuff is out there right now.

I totally disagree with this statement.

What kind of list are you facing that actually uses these things, that puts out more damage than any other meta list?

IT BEGINS!

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nids are brutal beyond description once dark reapers and guardsmen get patched. Heavy venom cannons are straight up unfair. It's just that even more unfair stuff is out there right now.

I totally disagree with this statement.

What kind of list are you facing that actually uses these things, that puts out more damage than any other meta list?

IT BEGINS!

I mean, not really, this list gets aced by Chaos, Eldar, Guard, general Imperium, Tau would handle it (3 damage shots, drones don't care!), Sisters would handle it (hello, scout melta spam + flamer city), i mean it's just not that great of a list. You could make the argument that it's tough for a general BA list to handle, but i'm still not sure i agree with that. Lascannons will still win the fight here due to Carnifex limited range.

 Marmatag wrote:

I mean, not really, this list gets aced by Chaos, Eldar, Guard, general Imperium, Tau would handle it (3 damage shots, drones don't care!), Sisters would handle it (hello, scout melta spam + flamer city), i mean it's just not that great of a list. You could make the argument that it's tough for a general BA list to handle, but i'm still not sure i agree with that. Lascannons will still win the fight here due to Carnifex limited range.

Don't worry. I was just joking around.

I think Guard has always been the foil for Nids though. I don't know if that makes it okay, but I don't think I've lost a game against Nids, like, ever. I can't really imagine a TAC list with any army that would really struggle against it. GK would probably be the hardest, at least of the armies I normally see, but with enough force weapons / psilencer shots, I'd think you'd make up for only wounding on 6s.

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I mean, not really, this list gets aced by Chaos, Eldar, Guard, general Imperium, Tau would handle it (3 damage shots, drones don't care!), Sisters would handle it (hello, scout melta spam + flamer city), i mean it's just not that great of a list. You could make the argument that it's tough for a general BA list to handle, but i'm still not sure i agree with that. Lascannons will still win the fight here due to Carnifex limited range.

Don't worry. I was just joking around.

I think Guard has always been the foil for Nids though. I don't know if that makes it okay, but I don't think I've lost a game against Nids, like, ever. I can't really imagine a TAC list with any army that would really struggle against it. GK would probably be the hardest, at least of the armies I normally see, but with enough force weapons / psilencer shots, I'd think you'd make up for only wounding on 6s.

LOL, gotcha.

Nids struggle with the current Imperial Guard. Their chaff is so cheap and their shooting is so potent.

But i should point out Carnifex are only T7. So your average strength 4 weapons wound on 5s, not 6s.

I feel like weapons are pretty ok.. but man, do bigger models die really, really fast. The games quickly becoming horde-hammer because 30 man units are much harder to kill overall than a 30 wound model in many cases. Screw your D6 damage lascannons, kill a single gaunt! I think bigger stuff needs a bit more survivability. But yes, mobility is also a pretty big issue; a lot of stuff can get T1 charges no problem. Overwatch is also pretttttyyyy crazy when you combine all the rerolls many armies have, and how many guns they have. Charging a 40 man cultist unit is questionable many times, lol

 Zid wrote:
I feel like weapons are pretty ok.. but man, do bigger models die really, really fast. The games quickly becoming horde-hammer because 30 man units are much harder to kill overall than a 30 wound model in many cases. Screw your D6 damage lascannons, kill a single gaunt! I think bigger stuff needs a bit more survivability. But yes, mobility is also a pretty big issue; a lot of stuff can get T1 charges no problem. Overwatch is also pretttttyyyy crazy when you combine all the rerolls many armies have, and how many guns they have. Charging a 40 man cultist unit is questionable many times, lol

Well to be fair,

it was mega flying robot monster fight in 7th of because of how powerful some MC's were.

If I put a unit on the field, I’d like for it to be able to do something before I remove it from the table. If I’m just going to put something on the table just to remove it a few minutes later, I will not be happy.

I will say that for the 1,000 pts games I”ve been playing, this hasn”t been a problem - and maybe that is where the issue is - the meta has settled on games that are just too big for IGOUGO sort of games.

 Stormonu wrote:
If I put a unit on the field, I’d like for it to be able to do something before I remove it from the table. If I’m just going to put something on the table just to remove it a few minutes later, I will not be happy.

I will say that for the 1,000 pts games I”ve been playing, this hasn”t been a problem - and maybe that is where the issue is - the meta has settled on games that are just too big for IGOUGO sort of games.

IGOUGO definitely has issues with durability scaling to focused fire. Threat range control is also a factor of this, but that ship sailed long ago.

Iron_Captain wrote:I general, it is good for things to die quickly, because that leads to faster games. Games of 40k already take a very long time, no need to increase that even further.

I swear, half this community thinks everything in the world makes the games too long.

Maybe you should kick it old school and play toy soldiers without dice at all?

 Marmatag wrote:
Horde models already die incredibly fast. The only issue is when they're shielding a gunline.

Tyranids and Orks aren't exactly crushing everyone and they're the canonical horde armies.

The problem isn't hordes. It's ONE army that can be both Gunline AND horde, and do both better than anyone else.

This, I 100% agree. My greentides lose 50-60 orks per turn against competitive lists, that's 300-400 points of cheap bodies that also do very little outside combat. I feel they should be even tougher

 Marmatag wrote:
Because Carnifex are decent but they always have to move, and moving models in Tyranid land can't get *any* rerolls of *any* kind that don't already have it baked into the unit or weapon profiles.

You are totally taking your rerolls for granted. If we could put a 74 point captain, and a 70 point Lieutenant in the middle of our Carnifex ball, and screen it with T3 5+ models that can receive orders, then yeah, i'd say they're too strong.

And seriously, 8 Carnifexes? How many sources of Synapse does this list have? that's what you should kill. Suddenly those Carnifex are going to be slower, and way more inaccurate.

This list will never be meta. If it became number 1, it would immediately be unseated by Tau commanders.

I think she's only got two synapse in the list. Maybe three. She basically doesn't worry about synapse with that list.

 Desubot wrote:

 Zid wrote:
I feel like weapons are pretty ok.. but man, do bigger models die really, really fast. The games quickly becoming horde-hammer because 30 man units are much harder to kill overall than a 30 wound model in many cases. Screw your D6 damage lascannons, kill a single gaunt! I think bigger stuff needs a bit more survivability. But yes, mobility is also a pretty big issue; a lot of stuff can get T1 charges no problem. Overwatch is also pretttttyyyy crazy when you combine all the rerolls many armies have, and how many guns they have. Charging a 40 man cultist unit is questionable many times, lol

Well to be fair,

it was mega flying robot monster fight in 7th of because of how powerful some MC's were.

:O I like mega robot monster fights! GOJIRA!

That said, they need to find a good balance. Seems like taking bigger models anymore is more of a liability than an advantage, especially when coupled with the "I can retreat whenever I please!" rules. No way to leave that Demon Prince in combat and keep him from getting blown off the board!

I also don't get why the IC rule was removed... I mean, character rules as they are is basically the same thing. Hell, that might even cut out the Aura hammer, giving the units they are attached to special rules like before. Not sure why they did that, but I didn't play 7th (but 6th did have a huge issue with deathstars,,, maybe thats why?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
If I put a unit on the field, I’d like for it to be able to do something before I remove it from the table. If I’m just going to put something on the table just to remove it a few minutes later, I will not be happy.

I will say that for the 1,000 pts games I”ve been playing, this hasn”t been a problem - and maybe that is where the issue is - the meta has settled on games that are just too big for IGOUGO sort of games.

IGOUGO definitely has issues with durability scaling to focused fire. Threat range control is also a factor of this, but that ship sailed long ago.

Yeah, they'd definitely have to significantly tweek the game for IGOUGO, especially in terms of the way models interact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Horde models already die incredibly fast. The only issue is when they're shielding a gunline.

Tyranids and Orks aren't exactly crushing everyone and they're the canonical horde armies.

The problem isn't hordes. It's ONE army that can be both Gunline AND horde, and do both better than anyone else.

This, I 100% agree. My greentides lose 50-60 orks per turn against competitive lists, that's 300-400 points of cheap bodies that also do very little outside combat. I feel they should be even tougher

But then look at Demons, where all the best units seem to be 30 man deepstriking blobs.. and I get that thats entirely due to the fact they can get the charge right after. But Death Guard and Chaos use large hordes as well. Tyranids gribbles have never been a "big" feature of the army, the gribbles were always mean't to tie you up until the big stuff arrived.

But I will say, IG hordes are definitely more effective. Is this because of the guns maybe? because they can overwatch a billion rerollable shots and kill an orc tide before it hits?

I feel this thread is a lot of complaining by players who field lots of Lords of War and expecting them to single handily destroy a whole army by themselves, and get mad once their opponent goes oh look papa smurf or oh look that Nurgle guy that will obliterate all my Marines if I let them get to close. So I’ll focus fire on them and then they die...

I’ve seen players not able to kill those units in shooting (a lot of players) and then get owned and now people want shooting damage to go down?

No keep it the way it is... Deploy better.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Because Carnifex are decent but they always have to move, and moving models in Tyranid land can't get *any* rerolls of *any* kind that don't already have it baked into the unit or weapon profiles.

You are totally taking your rerolls for granted. If we could put a 74 point captain, and a 70 point Lieutenant in the middle of our Carnifex ball, and screen it with T3 5+ models that can receive orders, then yeah, i'd say they're too strong.

And seriously, 8 Carnifexes? How many sources of Synapse does this list have? that's what you should kill. Suddenly those Carnifex are going to be slower, and way more inaccurate.

This list will never be meta. If it became number 1, it would immediately be unseated by Tau commanders.

I think she's only got two synapse in the list. Maybe three. She basically doesn't worry about synapse with that list.

Yes you do, you have to worry about instinctive behavior. Kill the synapse guys and all the Carnifex are at -1 to hit unless it's the closest model, and other debuffs.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Flamers definitely need some adjustment, they're ridiculously expensive for what they do, especially heavy flamers.

Exactly, we need Flamers at 4 pts and Heavy Flamers back at 10 pts

 daedalus wrote:
Honestly, for the points paid per wound, I kinda feel like everything that has more than one wound needs another one.

I kind of feel the same.

In a game against Eldar last week, I had 3 laspreds taken out turn one. There was some lucky rolling, but came away feeling that shouldn't have happened. I still won the game, my MVPs were 40-man cultist squads that could just sit on objectives and be redeployed when they lost models. The cultists advanced right back up to where they were and took the objective based on numbers, the Eldar couldn't kill them fast enough.

The idea that massed infantry has the edge on elite units / tanks makes me wonder why we bother with the cooler choices form the Codex. I would hate to have to track multiple wounds on every model on the board, but I'm also not down with success as a function of bodies.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Honestly, for the points paid per wound, I kinda feel like everything that has more than one wound needs another one.

I kind of feel the same.

In a game against Eldar last week, I had 3 laspreds taken out turn one. There was some lucky rolling, but came away feeling that shouldn't have happened. I still won the game, my MVPs were 40-man cultist squads that could just sit on objectives and be redeployed when they lost models. The cultists advanced right back up to where they were and took the objective based on numbers, the Eldar couldn't kill them fast enough.

The idea that massed infantry has the edge on elite units / tanks makes me wonder why we bother with the cooler choices form the Codex. I would hate to have to track multiple wounds on every model on the board, but I'm also not down with success as a function of bodies.

There's exceptions to the rule, but I generally agree and have had similar situations (though not the luxury of redeploying). I had a GMDK get lucky on overwatch and kill a Solitare and another Harlequin character (I forget the name) last Sunday when I played. Then I had a Bro Champ go down, but took out a few other characters with him. He lost major points on his turn by doing the only thing his army had going for him. It was pretty unfulfilling for both of us.

usmcmidn wrote:
I feel this thread is a lot of complaining by players who field lots of Lords of War and expecting them to single handily destroy a whole army by themselves, and get mad once their opponent goes oh look papa smurf or oh look that Nurgle guy that will obliterate all my Marines if I let them get to close. So I’ll focus fire on them and then they die...

I’ve seen players not able to kill those units in shooting (a lot of players) and then get owned and now people want shooting damage to go down?

No keep it the way it is... Deploy better.

I'm playing orks. And there is nothing i can do if i don't go first. Deploying better? It's impossible to completely hide a large squad or a vehicle and even if you're inside terrain, it doesn't do much. It's just a bad system where if i go first and roll that 2d6 for a charge after deepstrike, the opponent looses, if i don't go first and don't roll this 2d6, i loose. And the faction can't even play any other type of game.

 koooaei wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
I feel this thread is a lot of complaining by players who field lots of Lords of War and expecting them to single handily destroy a whole army by themselves, and get mad once their opponent goes oh look papa smurf or oh look that Nurgle guy that will obliterate all my Marines if I let them get to close. So I’ll focus fire on them and then they die...

I’ve seen players not able to kill those units in shooting (a lot of players) and then get owned and now people want shooting damage to go down?

No keep it the way it is... Deploy better.

I'm playing orks. And there is nothing i can do if i don't go first. Deploying better? It's impossible to completely hide a large squad or a vehicle and even if you're inside terrain, it doesn't do much. It's just a bad system where if i go first and roll that 2d6 for a charge after deepstrike, the opponent looses, if i don't go first and don't roll this 2d6, i loose. And the faction can't even play any other type of game.

Iv had to deal with a few knights and even once a lord of skulls. and didnt go first.

the knights are a pain, they move fast and beat on things pretty hard even if i could leave combat. the lord of skulls.. man i got stupid lucky. a single repulsor and a few hellblasters managed to get it hurt real bad then it charged my repulsor and i nabbed two las cannon hits on overwatch followed by it failing saves and dieing. but thats just stupid stupid stupid luck.

usmcmidn wrote:
I feel this thread is a lot of complaining by players who field lots of Lords of War and expecting them to single handily destroy a whole army by themselves

This