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 Dysartes wrote:

EricDominus wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-A lascannon or krak missile is actually a good weapon to use against a swarm of tiny things. You can apparently hit one so hard that 3-4 of the swarmlings die at once!

2) Read the rules properly before doing jokes about them. Excessive damage doesn't "spill" on other models and lost.

Read the thread properly before being snarky - as was clarified, if required, the OP was referring to things like Nurglings and Rippers, where a swarm base is made up of multiple smaller creatures, yet one AT weapon can somehow kill enough of them to eliminate the base.

People seem to have a hard time grasping that when I said “swarm,” I literally meant “swarm,” and not just any old horde of enemies.

That's why we capitalize when we used a defined term.

Some people just like to nitpick and suck all the fun away like a parasite

Back on Topic:

40 Cultists stasnd in a lin abreast, thump warspears and autoguns. As their line advancing Seargent Angrymarine cooly fires at the closet cultist. The shot hits dead center, but the cultist in unharmed. Instead there is a cry and spray of blood down the battlefield as a cultists well out of range dies from that same bolt shell.

Flustered Sgt. Angrymarine fires again and again the nearby cultist is unharmed but the rearmost cultist explodes, worse still, their corpse appears in front of the first cultist!

"Damn Warp." Seargent Angrymarine mumbles as he prepares to kill the 37 other cultists but shooting this first one.

Warhammer is the only universe where standing in the back of the massive charge is more dangerous than being in front

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Back on Topic:

40 Cultists stasnd in a lin abreast, thump warspears and autoguns. As their line advancing Seargent Angrymarine cooly fires at the closet cultist. The shot hits dead center, but the cultist in unharmed. Instead there is a cry and spray of blood down the battlefield as a cultists well out of range dies from that same bolt shell.

Flustered Sgt. Angrymarine fires again and again the nearby cultist is unharmed but the rearmost cultist explodes, worse still, their corpse appears in front of the first cultist!

"Damn Warp." Seargent Angrymarine mumbles as he prepares to kill the 37 other cultists but shooting this first one.

Warhammer is the only universe where standing in the back of the massive charge is more dangerous than being in front

Nature abhors a coward.

bibotot wrote:


A Chainsword is no more powerful than a kitchen knife.

Having 2 pistols is better than a Chainsword and a pistol.

Assuming the kitchen knife is also USER/0/1, then yes, but the chainsword gives you a bonus attack so on a 1 attack model it's effectively twice as powerful as a kitchen knife!

How is two pistols better than a chainsword and pistol? You have one less attack in combat every turn, while the extra pistol shot only happens in your own turn, so you have less attacks. Pistols would be better if you were permanently 12" away from the enemy and never in combat but... if you're doing that, then get a bolter instead, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You lose a single squad member and 100's of years of training and discipline are forgotten and you stab yourself in the face because of terror you aren't suppose to experience. moral is the single most stupid thing in this edition. I mean regardless of what faction and level of fear, losing models to moral is incredibly not fun (the game was made to be fun), it does nothing for game dynamics, it has no basis in realism. There is no point to it.

8th has been the most ill thought out and ridiculous edition so far. Love lots of things from it, but GW need to change a lot. 2nd was ridiculous in its complexity but it had the best of intentions, this edition is just DERPETY DERP DERP.

I think you forgot the comedy part. If you look at the 8th edition design interviews, the models don't commit suicide - they desert or stop fighting and find a nice hole to hide in.

It wasn't intended for comedy, the people that came up with this did it because they don't like long games, pure and simple. you can say they desert or stop fighting, but the only rational explanation is stabbing themselves in the face. 7th they stopped fighting and found a hole to hide in. They'd have to use humour to justify such a stupid rule. Maybe they have vortex grenades attached to string with a weight at the end, they fling it towards the enemy, so when they run away they fall into the warp, in doing so deterring fleeing. Now that's a realistic justification.

It's an abstract rule and you're putting your own specific definition to it that you personally don't like.

Most armies who are likely to break to morale and lose models, are from the "normal puny humanoids with basic training" camp, where getting scared and running away when a carnifex has just crushed all your squadmates into a bloody pulp is perfectly acceptable. In the case of space marines, when a carnifex has crushed your entire squad and you're the last guy left, then it's also acceptable for you to decide it's best to grab whats left of your half-dead brother and drag him off the battlefield in the hope of putting him in a dreadnought or something. Space Marines might be (relatively) fearless, but they aren't stupid or suicidal.

You wan't them to be totally immune to morale effects, which is not only totally breaking with the fluff, but also means that all the armies that rely on leadership manipulation would automatically lose against any space marine faction. The Imperium already have enough mary-sue advantages, they don't need any more.

A dreadnought that has been around since just after the Horus Heresy, can have enough -1 to hit stacked upon it that it misses, where as an Ork boy not only always hits on a 6, but gets a an additional shot.

So much for thousands of years of experience, should have just pulled her trigger harder and longer.

A natural 6 should always be a hit, regardless of the number of modifiers.

(This one is true in most formats, but not itc)

Your army has achieved their objectives of blowing up enemy outposts, slaying a warlord, and killing the first “unit” of enemies during the battle, or following whatever other crazy maelstrom of orders high command has sent down, racking up a huge lead in “victory points.” It has been costly though, and the army is decimated.

-If every soldier in the army falls, even at the last moment, it has all been for naught and the enemy claims a complete victory despite the key losses they took on objectives they needed to defend.

-On the other hand, a single scout hiding in some ruins in the back corner of his army’s original deployment zone, not interacting or resisting the enemy’s advance in the slightest, may claim a massive victory for his side should he live long enough!

The scout is claiming a moral victory and it works because he has the high ground.

 stonehorse wrote:
A dreadnought that has been around since just after the Horus Heresy, can have enough -1 to hit stacked upon it that it misses, where as an Ork boy not only always hits on a 6, but gets a an additional shot.

So much for thousands of years of experience, should have just pulled her trigger harder and longer.

A natural 6 should always be a hit, regardless of the number of modifiers.

"Mimimi, orks have a 2.7% higher chance to hit something than my SPEESSSS MUHREEENS in a completely unlikely scenario."

Some Murphey's rules:

Cruising toward combat...
If a human in full kit can run about 10 miles per hour, that means the maximum speed of Space Marine Bikes is about 22mph

Gunpowder is hard to come by in 41000 AE...
Most weapons in the Grimdark Future have an effective range under 100 meters, meaning that 21st century rifles have a significant range advantage over their 41st century counterparts...

He just keeps shouting 'don't lick the barrel' over and over...
Space Marine Commanders not only encourage their subordinates to shoot more accurately, but also convince their plasma weapons to explode less often

Wounding in Reverse
Due to the way attacks are resolved in Warhammer 40,00 you actually determine if the round was strong enough to damage the internal structure of the target, then if the round penetrated the armor, than if the round penetrated any surrounding shields or force fields. This means a lot of weapon shots are retroactively determined not to have penetrated after it is determined that it hit with sufficient force to cause major damage.

It's all the helium they swallow before battle
In game, Supersonic fighters are often unable to achieve enough altitude to put them beyond sword swinging range of men with jump packs.

Don't fire until you see the white of their eyes!
Like many miniature games, almost all field artillery is so short ranged that most can't be trusted to shoot beyond 150 meters and often have to be placed directly on the battlefield to have an effect.

An artillery piece on the table by itself with no spotter available firing blind at a target it has no line of sight to is just as accurate as that same artillery piece firing directly at a target over open sights.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Some Murphey's rules:

Cruising toward combat...
If a human in full kit can run about 10 miles per hour, that means the maximum speed of Space Marine Bikes is about 22mph

You have to remember that the rules cover a battle situation, so off-road over poor terrain and with obstacles... 22mph is probably about right.

Of course, this means that supersonic jets travel at what... 70mph? SO about as fast as your average truck.

Can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince flying at me because of "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist standing in front of it!

barboggo wrote:
Can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince flying at me because of "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist standing in front of it!

Can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince in front of you because of the "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist hiding on the other side of a shed behind you. Worse, can't shoot that huge winged daemon prince five feet from you because of the "swirling maelstrom" of one cultist hiding on the other side of a wall 24 foot and 11 inches away from a guy in your unit at the other end of a 20 foot skirmish line.

A tallyman, a biologous putrefier, a noxious blightbringer, a foul blightspawn, a plague surgeon and plague marine champion walk into a bar.
(for those unfamiliar with the models: all of them are plague marines which only differ in wargear)

The Ultramarine barkeeper leans over to them and asks them what they want to drink. He comes within 3" and not only get's a whiff of Death Guard No.7, but suddenly five of them heroically yell "Death to the False Emperor" and clobber the barkeeper to death. Just the plague marine champion is still sitting at the bar and has no clue what's going on.

Moral: Accountants, cooks, musicians, house cleaners and doctors are more heroic than the only guy in the legion who is allowed to use a powerfist.

While not a problem in 8th, I often find my DG characters outnumbering the my plague marines in certain situations - suddenly all the support characters run off to make heroic interventions, leaving the guys who actually brought knives to the knife fight behind.

That the people who wrote the 8th edition rulebook play RAI not RAW.

Ice_can wrote:
That the people who wrote the 8th edition rulebook play RAI not RAW.

Well seeing you can't play game RAW no surprise.

To be fair, the vast majority of RAW "problems" stem from people being overly anal with some wordings. Most of the time, it's perfectly clear how the game is supposed to work, since alternative interpretation lead to a broken game or obviously unintended side-effects.
Best example of this is the "What's an aura?" discussion.

The whole RAW vs RAI things comes from times when rules could be read in two or even three ways, that all could be played without breaking the game.
In 5th edition, just the ork codex had more RAW problems than the entire 8th edition. Actual RAW problems.

Give GW a break guys, they've only had FOUR DECADES to get it right. And you most certainly can play the game RAW. Only two situations where the RaW breaks this time around, so you can avoid them easily.

The main problem is people not liking what the RaW says, thus throwing a tantrum about RaI when the game doesn't go their way. I personally vehemently hate the idea of re-rolls before modifiers, it's stupid and unintuitive. Do I screech about it from the rooftops and demand that we play modifiers before re-rolls? Of course not, because I play games by their rules. That's the entire point of a board game.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Give GW a break guys, they've only had FOUR DECADES to get it right. And you most certainly can play the game RAW. Only two situations where the RaW breaks this time around, so you can avoid them easily.

The main problem is people not liking what the RaW says, thus throwing a tantrum about RaI when the game doesn't go their way. I personally vehemently hate the idea of re-rolls before modifiers, it's stupid and unintuitive. Do I screech about it from the rooftops and demand that we play modifiers before re-rolls? Of course not, because I play games by their rules. That's the entire point of a board game.

Damn it, I should have known BCB appears when you say "RAW" three times

But luckily he brought his signature, which I can use as an example:
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy´ - Technically right, while it's clear from context and examples that you can, since that's the whole point of the assault and pistol type
"minimum" ranges don't work, - Again, while GW failed to tell us to check minimum ranges, there are no rules needed to understand how it is supposed to work
Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll - One more issue where GW stumbled over not being able to create a proper modifier&re-roll framework, but there is little reason to contest that GW actually doesn't want to re-roll successful saves.
the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit - This is an actual issue, since there is no rule to handle the situation. Killing off one model first is valid RAI, as is spreading the wounds around 5th edition style. The main reason for this problem is lazy index writing, where they gave weapons that deal mortal wounds to their wielder to multi-wound models.
the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously - Another one of those. GW failed to implement a mechanism for hitting multiple units at once with a spell. Either provide rules, or don't provide spells that do this.
Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields - Considering it's Kharn and his axe used to kill him in previous editions... but yeah, the last sentence clearly states that GW didn't intend the rule hit Kharn himself, even if it has no effect RAW.
Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list - I actually found this one odd in your sig. IMO, this is intended and not unclear at all.
Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12" - Another one where we clearly know how it is supposed to work, except GW didn't use the same language on those rules (which is bad, but not unclear).
Spore Mines have an infinite range - Obviously unintended effect of a rule, but RAW works until GW fixes this mess.
Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything - For this rule to break you must assume that "Armor save" != "saving throw". I'd say not even RAW is unclear on this.
only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad - Another one of those where it's perfectly clear that you are supposed to be able to put your own models onto the pad, even if RAW says otherwise.

... I lost interest in continuing this.

So yes, GW has written thousands and thousands of pages of rules, one should think they should get better at it with practice. Still, amount of fethed up rules that are actually unclear and impact games regularly is close to zero.
My 5th edition ork codex had a "clear with opponent before battle"-list written inside the cover:
- Is a deff rolla hull or not?
- Where are the firing arcs or my battlewagon?
- KFF 4+ or 5+ cover?
- Can a nob have a big shoota?
- Can I call Thrakka's Waaagh! during my enemy's turn?
- What happens if a battlewagon is hit by warpstorm and can't turn?
- Do warbikers have 1 or 2 wounds?
- Can a battlewagon bought for a unit of nobz that was made troops by a warboss hold objectives?

All of those were genuinely unclear things that were not answered by RAW.

While GW can and should still get a lot better, they have improved by a lot already.

I see some people missed the point of the thread, so another bit to get back out of the dark caves of rule debates!

-In the history of war, morale has been known as a contagious “domino” effect. A soldier is much more likely to run when he sees his allies already doing so. Not true in the 41st millennium!
A soldier will only become concerned immediately after several squad mates die, taking no notice of the rest of his army being obliterated, and is much less likely to flee if several other squad mates take off first. Through casualties or abandonment, should that soldier become the last remaining squad member on the field, he will suddenly gain unshakable courage for the rest of the battle...or his life, whichever ends first.

-An interesting side note to morale; potentially fleeing soldiers seem to be very conscientious and aware of the situation. The soldier standing in an important spot or with special gear relevant to the battle situation will refuse to retreat until last!

-The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.

Nitpick: Deathwatch Veterans can.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.

Nitpick: Deathwatch Veterans can.

So that’s how the DW screens out potential recruits!

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-The qualifications for sergeants in marine armies are simple: Can you lead slightly better than the others, and can you attack specifically twice as fast in melee? (before given any weapons.)
There is no such thing as a marine who can only do one of those two things.

Nitpick: Deathwatch Veterans can.

So that’s how the DW screens out potential recruits!

Nah - we only hire sergeants. In DW, Everyone is a leader*!

*Leader of One. Leadership is best shown by following orders

Aaaaand we’re back! (Idea shamelessly stolen from Evan on Facebook.)

This just in: Local flying helldrake wants to charge an enemy fighter plane in the sky, but cannot because there are little crunchy infantrymen in front of it on the ground!

A Kill Team One, with the Take Prisoners scenario:

An Eldar warrior sneaks behind Seargent Brother Bolterfist and hits him with his blade, capturing the vulnerable commander and stuffing him in a giant sack. However, Only In Death Does Duty End and Brother Bolterfist turns around and slams his bolter into the Eldar's skull, forcing him into an identical sack. They then sit inside their respective sacks waiting to be found.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Aaaaand we’re back! (Idea shamelessly stolen from Evan on Facebook.)

This just in: Local flying helldrake wants to charge an enemy fighter plane in the sky, but cannot because there are little crunchy infantrymen in front of it on the ground!

Wow, that is pants on head dumb. Screening supersonic jet from being assaulted within ground based units.

Stay classy 40K!

 stonehorse wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Aaaaand we’re back! (Idea shamelessly stolen from Evan on Facebook.)

This just in: Local flying helldrake wants to charge an enemy fighter plane in the sky, but cannot because there are little crunchy infantrymen in front of it on the ground!

Wow, that is pants on head dumb. Screening supersonic jet from being assaulted within ground based units.

Stay classy 40K!

Flyers in general in 40k act kind of weird, this is sort of the newest addition to that weirdness. The inverse has been in place for a while, with two ground-bound units on opposite sides of a supersonic flyer's base being unable to charge each other.

like:
It's easier to hit a supersonic fighter plane while trying to fly after it on a jetpack with a sword than it is for the same guy to shoot at it with his pistol.
It's easier to kill an airplane with a tank mounted flamethrower [that has 0 degrees of gun elevation] than it is with an auto-tracking rapid-firing quad-mounted specialized AA gun.
It's easier to kill a supersonic fighter plane by having a guy fly after it with a jetpack and a big stick than to use an auto-tracking rapid-firing quad-mounted specialized AA gun, or a guided missile.
A VTOL gunship can engage a tank in close quarters combat. How are they fighting each other?
I'm 99% certain that most aircraft can probably not survive multiple repeated direct hits from medium and heavy AA guns and guided missiles, much less the generally absurd pounding they can take on the tabletop from AA guns.
etc.

Like, I'd bet that, of all the strange implications that occur when the abstraction breaks down, flyers probably generate the most of them.

I want to make a 'no one plays soup lists anymore because of Band of Brothers ... oh wait' comment, but GW having that poor of a grasp on how their own game works is more alarming than funny.