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I'm probably late about this matter but I just noticed something that looks a huge contradiction to me.

I don't own any codex yet since my armies still have to rely on the index, but a few days ago I was reading the SM codex when I noticed that characters can have jump packs. I was aware that biker ones were removed but I thought that the option of taking jump packs was gone as well since there are no HQs with jump packs in the GW catalogue, only the chaplain has an official model. Librarians for example can take jump packs but not a bike anymore and yet there are no models of librarians with jump packs. Captains on bike instead are still included in the codex but there's actually no official model while biker techmarines and apothecaries are also gone. The captain can take a storm shield while its box doesn't come with that bitz, etc....

Then I'm asking: why is ok for GW to kitbash a jump pack dude into a character while bikers should be modeled only as bikers?

The no model no rule concept doesn't seem to be applied to everything. Is that correct?

You are correct. However, expect that going forward this will change to 100%. Primaris, for example are exceptionally limited in wargear - namely the characters. You get one model, in one pose, with one (maaaaybe two) weapon options.

So yes, it hasn't been applied fully, but I do expect it will be going forward.

PS: For the record I think it's a completely gak decision and will negatively impact my enthusiasm to ever buy a new army with Games Workshop going forward.

Yes, it seems to be very inconsistently applied. There's at least one other example from the Marine codex as well: weapon options for dreadnoughts (the Venerable kit doesn't come with a missile launcher or multi-melta). On the flip side, they've removed rules for models that DO exist, such as the Heralds of Slaanesh on seeker/seeker chariot/exalted seeker chariot.

It doesn't make any sense to me.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Yes, it seems to be very inconsistently applied. There's at least one other example from the Marine codex as well: weapon options for dreadnoughts (the Venerable kit doesn't come with a missile launcher or multi-melta). On the flip side, they've removed rules for models that DO exist, such as the Heralds of Slaanesh on seeker/seeker chariot/exalted seeker chariot.

It doesn't make any sense to me.

It doesn't have to make sense, it was fallout from the ChapterHouse lawsuit. I am sure that GW think it is pretty unfortunate as well. It is certainly pretty inconvenient for GW's own studio.

Its a bummer, as Librarians on bikes have had some of the coolest conversions.

*Old man voice* "You kids don't even know, I remember the days where we used to convert techmarines on bikes, of all things! And Deathwing command techmarines, too!"

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Its a bummer, as Librarians on bikes have had some of the coolest conversions.

*Old man voice* "You kids don't even know, I remember the days where we used to convert techmarines on bikes, of all things! And Deathwing command techmarines, too!"

While we are on the old man rant...

Kids these days doing conversions in plastic! Back in my day if we wanted something other then stock monopose, we had to work in metal!

Ok, it's not perfect but why not just convert one yourself? Want a jump pack librarian, just take a librarian or make one, and stick a jump pack on him. Simples.

I believe there is more to it than no model no rules, but we'll have to wait and see.

Most of the stuff they have left in are barley convestions gitting a jumppack instead of a backpack is no real effort 90% of the time.
But they have also saidnindex entries that aren't replaced are still valid. so yeah for no single source of unit rules.

Rough Riders?!?!
NO MODEL NO RULES.

But what about Autogun Veterans? You just added them this edition, and you've not sold IG models with Autoguns, like... Ever.


Shut up.

Okay then, what about the basic IG Kit, that has loads of in Codex options you don't supply?
Yeah well you'll have to go buy Command Squad Boxes for that. But what if I want a Lascannon in my Command Squad, the Command Squad doesn't come with the bits for that.
So buy a heavy weapon team.
So if I want an Infantry Squad I have to buy a Command Squad, and if I want a Command Squad I have to buy a heavy weapons team, and if I want Veterans with Autoguns I can't have them, but if I buy the Rough Riders you used to sell I can't field them.
Yep.
So what about Veterans with Shotguns?
Buy Forgeworld.
But that's not how you work. Forgeworld units have their ow-
BUY FORGEWORLD. [But not the titans, okay?]
Okay. What about Power Sword on IG Sergeants?
Command Squad again.
Right. But they can't have Lasguns?
No.
Even though the box actually comes with ten lasguns?
NO.
So what about Demo Charges.
We don't sell those.
But you don't actually sell Special Weapon Squads.
Nope.
But they're in the Codex.
Yep.
So what do I use to represent them?
Just buy some Imperial Guard from our Website.
Okay. But on your website you have models that actually have Demo Charges, Like the Last Chancer Box set.
So?
So I could buy Demo Charge Guardsmen from your website and make a special Weapon squa-
[Gunshot]

Some oddities:
- In 7th, the DE Archon lost access to the Venom Blade, even though it was available elsewhere in the range and DE models were specifically designed to be interchangeable.
- However, the DE Haemonculus retained access to the Hexrifle, even though neither the new model nor the old model have access to it *and* the new model is monopose and not interchangeable without serious conversion work.
- In 8th, the DE Archon lost access to the Soul Trap in the Index, even though the 5th edition model is literally holding the thing.


But then, DE tend to get the short end of the stick in general. For example, on entering 7th, both Dark Eldar and Necrons had about 5 special characters with no models.

What was GW's response?

Necrons got a new model for each of their special characters.
Dark Eldar had all those special characters removed.

Yeah this is all kind of a mess. Lots of bewildering decisions...I'm told the ChapterHouse thing is the reason (as above) but I don't know why, exactly.

I mean, GW seems to produce net fewer models now than when I quit, and there were gaps then...like, you had a decade to get gak in gear, guys...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
So what about Demo Charges.

Ah, but you see Demo Charges aren't available for SW / Vet squads anymore - as of the Codex, anyways.

I just wish for at least consistency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone else annoyed they removed Biker HQ dudes and then we still have the White Scars one for sale?

The Ork kommandos have Tank Busta bombs modeled on their backpacks and have never had the option to take them....

That one always irked me.

There never was a Chaos-terminator model with Combiplasma that I'm aware of. But luckily we got to keep those.

 Infantryman wrote:
I'm told the ChapterHouse thing is the reason (as above) but I don't know why, exactly.

The ChapterHouse explanation doesn't make sense; since if that was the reason, Forgeworld wouldn't keep releasing rules for units which have no models.

It also wouldn't make any sense to retain some legacy options in the Indexes if having rules without models apparently needs to be avoided.

I think it was a knee jerk reaction and unfortunately the hobby as a whole suffers. There are places doing recasts of current stuff and other games/models/IPs that people use to proxy or better represent the models anyways. Some of the 8th Ed Codexes have been weakened due to this stance GW has taken. I understand why they have done it, but it does more harm to the hobby I think. And as pointed out they have contradicted the "No Models, No Rules" anyways.

GW has the basic loadouts for Eldar War Walkers with 2 Shuriken Cannons, but they don't sell a War Walker kit with 2. I'm sure not going to kitbash, because that's wrong and against the rules (and could never benefit them, by making people buy more models than they actually need) but then they make rules for models they don't sell. I'm confused.

I suppose at least for the jump pack dudes they sell those separately. I'd probably have gone down the route of sticking some guys on bikes if it was allowed though. Techmarines generally find it a bit tricky to fix a vehicle that's moving 3 times faster than them.

craggy wrote:
GW has the basic loadouts for Eldar War Walkers with 2 Shuriken Cannons, but they don't sell a War Walker kit with 2. I'm sure not going to kitbash, because that's wrong and against the rules (and could never benefit them, by making people buy more models than they actually need) but then they make rules for models they don't sell. I'm confused.

I suppose at least for the jump pack dudes they sell those separately. I'd probably have gone down the route of sticking some guys on bikes if it was allowed though. Techmarines generally find it a bit tricky to fix a vehicle that's moving 3 times faster than them.

You say kit bashing is against the rules and then in the TS Codex GW features a “converted sorcerer in terminator armor” which requires you to buy the CSM terminator lord and a box of scarab occult terminators and then use the aspiring sorcerer bits from the SOT. It is confusing how they seem to waffle back and forth.

If I would want to have a HQ-model on a bike or a jetpack, I'd convert one whenever I want.

I thought the Marine index had rules for characters on bikes... can I not run bike Librarians and Chaplains in my White Scars army?

 The Sentinel wrote:

craggy wrote:
GW has the basic loadouts for Eldar War Walkers with 2 Shuriken Cannons, but they don't sell a War Walker kit with 2. I'm sure not going to kitbash, because that's wrong and against the rules (and could never benefit them, by making people buy more models than they actually need) but then they make rules for models they don't sell. I'm confused.

I suppose at least for the jump pack dudes they sell those separately. I'd probably have gone down the route of sticking some guys on bikes if it was allowed though. Techmarines generally find it a bit tricky to fix a vehicle that's moving 3 times faster than them.

You say kit bashing is against the rules and then in the TS Codex GW features a “converted sorcerer in terminator armor” which requires you to buy the CSM terminator lord and a box of scarab occult terminators and then use the aspiring sorcerer bits from the SOT. It is confusing how they seem to waffle back and forth.

That one doesn't count, its a conversion to LOOK better, but the plain terminator sorcerer comes with all the parts needed to make a valid TS terminator sorcerer. he will just look somewhat off.

Also, you can make a completely reasonable terminator sorcerer out of just the scarab box. will cost you a squad member though.

GW was never against kitbashing to make models look unique or cool, only recently against things they don't have a base option of to begin with.
And even with that, they are inconsistant, for example grand master dreadknight.

 MacPhail wrote:
I thought the Marine index had rules for characters on bikes... can I not run bike Librarians and Chaplains in my White Scars army?

They are not in the codex, but are in the index. So you can continue to run them. The lack of presence in the codex is worrisome from a long term view, but for now you are good.

I went out of my way to convert all the HQs to have a version on bike, jump pack, TDA, and foot. I’d be pretty pissed if half those guys became unusable. And it’s not like I’m hitting 3rd party guys for bits. If I want to convert, I buy more GW boxes.

This whole thing was a major concern of mine, and I let them know in that survey they did a bit ago. I hope they come to their senses, this whole thing is them shooting themselves in the foot hobby-wise. Also from a fluff POV it makes no sense.

Another possibility for the inconsistency is that the units removed were ones they don't plan on doing any time soon, while the ones still in are separate kits we haven't seen yet.

I admit that's just speculation.


@Nevelon: I agree with you about conversions, and I typically by GW for my conversion needs as well. I remember saying as much myself in their survey.

 Elbows wrote:
You are correct. However, expect that going forward this will change to 100%. Primaris, for example are exceptionally limited in wargear - namely the characters. You get one model, in one pose, with one (maaaaybe two) weapon options.

So yes, it hasn't been applied fully, but I do expect it will be going forward.

I wouldn't be so sure since primaris got basically an entire army, and since they're SM they will probably get some other releases in the next few years. I don't think xenos would receive that many boxes of new stuff, they will probably use the same kits for infantries, elites and vehicles for another 10+ years. Limiting options and removing kitbashing about new kits could make sense, even if I strongly disapprove that, but what about existing kits that are likely to be in the catalogue for years, if not decades?

 Nevelon wrote:
While we are on the old man rant...

Kids these days doing conversions in plastic! Back in my day if we wanted something other then stock monopose, we had to work in metal!

What old man rant? If I want to convert my SoB to something other than stock monopose I still have to work with metal.


Seraphims kept inferno pistols despite no models, but the hand flamer models work for inferno pistols because nobody knows or care about the precise look for any of those.

I understand the reason for 'no model, no rules' is GW trying to protect their copyright from third party companies filling holes in the model line. But I think this is the wrong way to go about it and their rules withdrawals actually harm the hobby and respect for GW. It would have been better to release the models and conversion parts for existing rules so people didn't feel the need to go third party.

craftworld_uk wrote:
I understand the reason for 'no model, no rules' is GW trying to protect their copyright from third party companies filling holes in the model line.

But that makes no sense as a theory - GW are still releasing rules for units with no models (whether in Indexes, with units like the Dreadknight Grand Master, or through Forgeworld); and releasing rules + models together doesn't stop third party companies from copying GW's art/model designs anyway.

At best the current situation prevents 3rd parties from getting a relatively insignificant number of sales during the period between GW releasing rules and releasing corresponding models.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ork kommandos have Tank Busta bombs modeled on their backpacks and have never had the option to take them....

That one always irked me.

Tank busta bombs can also be found in the boyz and then nobz box. Allowing them as options would actually go a long way toward solving some major ork problems.

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah this is all kind of a mess. Lots of bewildering decisions...I'm told the ChapterHouse thing is the reason (as above) but I don't know why, exactly.

I mean, GW seems to produce net fewer models now than when I quit, and there were gaps then...like, you had a decade to get gak in gear, guys...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
So what about Demo Charges.

Ah, but you see Demo Charges aren't available for SW / Vet squads anymore - as of the Codex, anyways.

That's the point. The Demo Charge option was removed because it's a no model no rules issue.
Except there are models. There's just no rules now. Just because.

Except you can use them, because you can use the Index Rules, so what was the point of removing them from the Codex?

GAARRR?!?!?!?!...