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So I ran a bit of a monte-carlo simulation on the big spider.



The blip at the end is because there's a very long tail to the distribution, and that's how many wounds a castellan has so I truncated it there. That's a ~1.3% chance of 1-shotting it, BTW, it's less than it looks.

dapperbandit wrote:
Is Separatek a weird spin on Canoptek? Maybe they don't want it using the strategem to shoot and/or charge after advancing.
Or perhaps they came up with a new Dynasty; as it's in an unfamiliar paint scheme it's possible

I reckon it's probably the patented forgeworld pattern designation, like how they have the cerastus and acastus pattern knights. Seraptek is presumably the name they're gonna use to differentiate titanic Canoptek units from normal Canoptek units.

momerathe wrote:
So I ran a bit of a monte-carlo simulation on the big spider.



The blip at the end is because there's a very long tail to the distribution, and that's how many wounds a castellan has so I truncated it there. That's a ~1.3% chance of 1-shotting it, BTW, it's less than it looks.

Similar results when tossed into http://www.dice-hammer.com/#!/damage

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 16.89 16.89 13.78 13.78 13.78 10.67 7.56 7.56
(line 1 is toughness with a 5++, line 2 is average wounds caused)

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect

I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?

I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...

~400point model

It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.

At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect

I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?

I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...

~400point model

It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.

At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.

Each pack of 3 Destroyers without stratagem:
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 7.78 6.22 6.22 4.67 3.11 3.11 3.11 3.11
3x Destroyers With Stratagem:
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 10.37 9.48 9.48 8.00 5.93 5.93 5.93 5.93
(line 1 is toughness with a 5++, line 2 is average wounds caused)

Based on that, a unit of 6 Destroyers using the stratagem will cause 11 wounds on average to a T8 5++ unit.

Standard mathhammer caveat applies - remember you will do less than average damage 50% of the time.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect

I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?

I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...

~400point model

It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.

At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.

Ah yes, that's true. Now c'mon and give him a 3++ too )

Would be nice with some sort of synergy, to make him viable together with things like destroyers.

Or perhaps a 6" 5++ for canopteks to revive the scarab swarm, make the spyder survivable and synergize nicely with the tomb sentinel/stalker? And give him some CC capabilities to make it worthwhile stearing him forwards.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect

I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?

I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...

~400point model

It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.

At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.

Thanks for the clarification.

I agree the whole usefulness of this thing depends on its defensive abilities plus point costs.
T7/8 with 5++ and no QS for~500points is going to be a very big „NO“ for me.

I'm gonna say it now.
The thing isn't gonna have QS. Its a knight. It just looks Necron. Being immune to high damage weaponry via QS is painting a target on this thing's forehead, and is gonna make it cost 1000 points by itself.

There is no conceivable way it can be balanced with QS, a decent armor save, and a decent toughness. Unless its made of paper like the rest of our vehicles for some reason.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I'm gonna say it now.
The thing isn't gonna have QS. Its a knight. It just looks Necron. Being immune to high damage weaponry via QS is painting a target on this thing's forehead, and is gonna make it cost 1000 points by itself.

There is no conceivable way it can be balanced with QS, a decent armor save, and a decent toughness. Unless its made of paper like the rest of our vehicles for some reason.

I agree that I don't think it'll have it, but not that it can't be balanced.

I took a gauss pylon against 6 AM tanks once, and although went first and popped a tank a turn, it still took him only two rounds of full shooting to bring it down, using only Dmg2 and DmgD3 turret weapons and heavy bolters. (He only brought low-damage weapons against me knowing I might bring QS vehicles. Even now, long after 7th a necron player finds few friends :( )

QS would only marginally help against that.

I agree the meta has shifted towards knights and necron players not even playing any more, but Low dmg weapons in proportionally higher frequency would still pose a threat to it.

 Draco765 wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect

I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?

I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...

~400point model

It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.

At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.

Each pack of 3 Destroyers without stratagem:
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 7.78 6.22 6.22 4.67 3.11 3.11 3.11 3.11
3x Destroyers With Stratagem:
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 10.37 9.48 9.48 8.00 5.93 5.93 5.93 5.93
(line 1 is toughness with a 5++, line 2 is average wounds caused)

Based on that, a unit of 6 Destroyers using the stratagem will cause 11 wounds on average to a T8 5++ unit.

Yes, I meant an equivalent number of points of Destroyers will easily out shoot this thing. Even at 300 with a single unit they out shoot it, and I almost guarantee it will be much more than that. My guess is it will land in the 500-550 point range. It's utility and defensive stats are what will likely make or break it, and it will need to be pretty amazing as it's at least easy to hide your destroyers in deep strike until the best opportunity presents itself.

Edit: Of course there is nothing saying you can't take this and destroyers together, but that is a pretty large chunk of a 2k list.

Destroyers and/or extermination protocols might get nerfed in the upcoming FAQ round. The singularity generators are obviously not intended for taking out knights. Just wait for the complete rules before you judge the construct.

Yeah, we haven't seen the other configurations yet.
The singularity generator might not even be intended to kill other Lords of War units.
In fact, the Heavy Construct might not be intended to fight LoW at all. It is entirely possible they are going to leave that role to Pylons.

I agree, all we have is a weapon profile and speculation. Way too many details to know before any conclusion can be made. Until we get more info though, wild speculation is all we have, so might as well have fun with it

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I agree, all we have is a weapon profile and speculation. Way too many details to know before any conclusion can be made. Until we get more info though, wild speculation is all we have, so might as well have fun with it

Oh absolutely.

It'll be interesting to see what direction the other weapon will go.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

dapperbandit wrote:


Also RE: Praetorians, I always go for the Voidblades, to bury enemies in S5 AP-3 attacks. They are oddly one of our best units for AA because they can charge flyers, where the -3 really hurts since the majority of flyers lack an invulnerable save. Also, everybody, including many Necron players, forget about A Purpose Unshakeable. They can't fail morale, ever, so they are in some ways more resilient than other elites.

Good call, this pretty much made up my mind. My local meta is still kinda flyer heavy, so this was something that I overlooked. I'll get some Lychguard at a later date when I have more options. Thank you all for your help.

I think there's still a case to be made for Rods due to the shooting profile being nice for shooting one squad and then charging another.

torblind wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I agree, all we have is a weapon profile and speculation. Way too many details to know before any conclusion can be made. Until we get more info though, wild speculation is all we have, so might as well have fun with it

Oh absolutely.

It'll be interesting to see what direction the other weapon will go.

If I had to guess, since it's also asthetically similar to another weapon that's known for mortal wounds (synaptic disintigrator), I'd say something along the lines of the rift cannon on the dark talon, except more range, and possibly more shots.

So ever since bringing Tesseract Vaults I'm having a hard to fielding anything else. They wipe the floor with marines, which dominate my meta, and are relatively straightforward to play.

I also am just a sucker for fun gimmicky lists. Any other enjoyable (potentially cheesy) lists people would reccomend?

dapperbandit wrote:
Is Separatek a weird spin on Canoptek? Maybe they don't want it using the strategem to shoot and/or charge after advancing.
Or perhaps they came up with a new Dynasty; as it's in an unfamiliar paint scheme it's possible

I'm pretty sure the color scheme is Maynarkh, which is the Forge World dynasty that the Necron characters come from.

 p5freak wrote:
Destroyers and/or extermination protocols might get nerfed in the upcoming FAQ round. The singularity generators are obviously not intended for taking out knights. Just wait for the complete rules before you judge the construct.

Umm if high rate of fire S8 Dd6 with mortal wounds isn't intended to take out knights what is? Does weapon need to have D3d6 or something to be knight dealing weapon? Generally I have to deal with knights using low rate high damage or high rate low damage weapons(which often are also wounding on 5+ giving better save to knight).

Incidentally single one of those seems to be almost same as castellan's volcano lance vs knights...Guess volcano lance isn't designated knight killing weapon either.

tneva82 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Destroyers and/or extermination protocols might get nerfed in the upcoming FAQ round. The singularity generators are obviously not intended for taking out knights. Just wait for the complete rules before you judge the construct.

Umm if high rate of fire S8 Dd6 with mortal wounds isn't intended to take out knights what is? Does weapon need to have D3d6 or something to be knight dealing weapon? Generally I have to deal with knights using low rate high damage or high rate low damage weapons(which often are also wounding on 5+ giving better save to knight).

Incidentally single one of those seems to be almost same as castellan's volcano lance vs knights...Guess volcano lance isn't designated knight killing weapon either.

I feel like people around here expect too much of this model. It's supposed to be a knight equivalent, yet people are disappointed it can "only" almost halfway kill a knight in one round. A knight won't reliably kill another knight in a single round of shooting, so why would this?

And if we compare it to a knight, these weapons together are like a gatling cannon with more strength, ap and damage, which I feel is quite strong. And we don't even know its defensive capabilities yet, let alone any other abilities it will probably have.

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:
I feel like people around here expect too much of this model. It's supposed to be a knight equivalent, yet people are disappointed it can "only" almost halfway kill a knight in one round. A knight won't reliably kill another knight in a single round of shooting, so why would this?

And if we compare it to a knight, these weapons together are like a gatling cannon with more strength, ap and damage, which I feel is quite strong. And we don't even know its defensive capabilities yet, let alone any other abilities it will probably have.

Yeah. I mean above was calculation showing 10 wounds and spare vs knight for pair(so about 5 and spare for single). Castellan's volcano lance does 6 and spare so about wound difference. Sure it's not volcano lance equilavent but also it's more reliable(more dice). Of course depends on price etc how good model will be but stat wise that seems to me quite nice knight killer(and better than anything orks can hope to have and not much IG has that's better except shadowsword. Funny. I went "oh nice one against knights" seeing profiles and then I read it's not titan killer Perception differences!

Also IMO game doesn't benefit if everything is one shotting another. Too much alpha striking. One reason I like rules for adeptus titanicus is actually that things DON'T get just insta vaporized instantly. 40k has been upping lethality up to ridiculous levels by throwing in offensive boosts on top of offensive boosts and leaving defence lagging driving things toward extremes.

MACRO guns are designed to kill TITANIC units, because they do double damage. A gun which ignores, or has a negative modifier to inv saves, would also be nice to kill knights.

 p5freak wrote:
MACRO guns are designed to kill TITANIC units, because they do double damage. A gun which ignores, or has a negative modifier to inv saves, would also be nice to kill knights.

So basically only titans are then designed to kill knights...

Of course you are talking about guns that are mounted on chassises to whom knights are mostly minor annoyance and good target practice...

tneva82 wrote:

So basically only titans are then designed to kill knights...

Yes, but as you know, everything in this edition can wound everything. Those singularity generators can kill a knight, but they are not designed for that job.

 p5freak wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

So basically only titans are then designed to kill knights...

Yes, but as you know, everything in this edition can wound everything. Those singularity generators can kill a knight, but they are not designed for that job.

So basically nothing in 40k outside apoc is designed to kill a knight...No knight is equipped with anti-knight weapon, shadowsword isn't designed to kill knights etc etc etc etc.

Macro weapons are not designed to kill knights but titans. War on whole new level. Knights are ants to the targets macro weapons are designed to kill.

Yeah the new Forgeworld model is not too bad at killing Knights. Though it really shouldn't be it's main job anyways. There absolutely should be some good anti-tank options in the main Codex, and while I think that the Doomsday Ark is ok at it (though unreliable for sure), the increase in Invuln saves being tacked onto big models kind of detracts from this. An odd decision for sure by GW.

For me, the concern is more that we will end up paying close to castellan points costs with nowhere near the survivability or extra capability that a castellan can have. My point is simply that if that's the case, it adds nothing to our playbook in terms of competitive play.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
For me, the concern is more that we will end up paying close to castellan points costs with nowhere near the survivability or extra capability that a castellan can have. My point is simply that if that's the case, it adds nothing to our playbook in terms of competitive play.

Well I'm not going to open my wrists with just current info. Which is basically it's knight sized model with basically rapid fire lascannon that traded blip of S to blip of AP(not best of trades but it also shoots 6x as much and causes MW's). So far nothing shown gives me bad vibes.

Well except it's resin so GW is unlikely to let be good. Even if it would be good but not broken GW would likely give it 300% point hike on next CA.

And that's exactly why I'm wary. FW has a terrible track record of making knight level models competitive this edition. Not to mention GW's apparent belief that Necrons are fine.