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torblind wrote:

How would you build a tournament list around the Deceiver there days

I have had some success with Mephrit silver tide bringing warriors into RF range turn 1, but what else could one to mix things up.

Sword and board lychguard? Anrakyr? Even shifting sideways in own deployment zone could have advantages

C'tan work very well with the Deceiver, the 9" bubble smite can be insane if you manage to get two or even three off in the first turn you're really doing some damage. Tesseract Vaults are are pretty nice with the Deceiver if you are playing against someone who is trying to avoid your Vault(s). A single Vault also makes it easier to put the right powers on the right models since with the Deceiver, the Nightbringer and a Vault you have 8 powers, which means you can take two powers twice. Doing a suicide run with C'tan is pretty fun against armies based on aura synergy, not only do they have to deal with the massive damage of your aura powers they also have to deal with you exploding.

A Ghost Ark can unload it's contents which can charge in the same turn whether an HQ or 10 or even a measly 10-man Warrior unit meant to tie up tanks that aren't properly bubbled up.

Sword and board Lychguard are never good, Warscythes pack a punch and can work if you're bringing a metric ton of Destroyers to take heat off them. Anrakyr brings too little value to transport with the Deceiver IMO, I'd rather bring another unit of Lychguard.

The traditional thing was to bring Wraiths and Scarabs along, those still aren't terrible choices, but I'm not too hooked on them since the FLY nerf.

Doctoralex wrote:
I got a 2v2 tourney coming up this weekend. Me and my buddy are going over each faction and kind of speculating what we can expect.

However, there is one army neither of us has any experience with, nor do I see them in any battle-reports online.

Ynarri.

Can you guys tell me what their strengths/weaknesses are? What kind of tricks do we need to be weary of? What are their key units?

When a unit dies within 7" of a non-vehicle Ynnari unit it gets to move, shoot, charge or fight. There's an HQ choice that has a psychic power that allows a unit to do it. Avoid killing units near Ynnari units, just whittle them down, they don't get back up .

Played a round vs Ynnari with a Sautekh double Tesseract Vault List. Scored a thousand pts worth of casualties and my opponent surrendered.

I'm not sure how bad I feel, the game was dumb and I laughed at how bad the game was, my opponent definitely wasn't having fun though, but he was bringing just as competitive an army as I was. Still felt bad though, not much of a game, more a one-sided slaughter, definitely showed the potential power of a multi-Vault list, but I've seen how bad Vaults do against list that play defensively and just hang back.

So Ynnari are like the opposite of necrons? Instead of wiping them out at once, you have to grind them down slowly?
Which ones are Ynnari units? Aren't they just a faction, where everything in the list could be Ynnari, or are there specific things to look out for?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So Ynnari are like the opposite of necrons? Instead of wiping them out at once, you have to grind them down slowly?
Which ones are Ynnari units? Aren't they just a faction, where everything in the list could be Ynnari, or are there specific things to look out for?

Ynnari are in the same index as Necrons, if you want all the details you might as well read them yourself. Aeldari units can give up their Craftworld/Cult/Kabal trait to get the Soulburst ability, but as long as they have a Craftworld/Kabal Detachment they can still use the Craftworld/Kabal Stratagems on the Ynnari units.

Ynnari units with lots of damage output or high mobility are scary, Wraithflamers used to be insane, now it's mostly Dark Reapers and Shining Spears I think. Ynnari aren't really that much stronger than Codex Craftworlds or Codex Drukhari it seems, playing around their strengths is probably a lot easier than playing around -1 to hit or 6+ FNP. But if you let those Dark Reapers get multiple turns of shooting twice with their full number of models off you're going to get hurt real bad. Killing Yvraine or the Dark Reapers seems absolutely essential, but they can do some movement shenanigans after shooting so they can be really hard to get rid off depending on terrain. Getting rid of the Doom Farseer and the Jinx Warlock are also really important, especially if you have any big important units. Getting to shoot Dark Reapers before they shoot is only going to be a thing against someone who doesn't know what they're doing I think. Maybe my opponent thought I wouldn't "waste" Dd6 weapons on them and would let him trigger Soulburst by killing a Ravager.

 vict0988 wrote:
[

Sword and board Lychguard are never good, Warscythes pack a punch and can work if you're bringing a metric ton of Destroyers to take heat off them. Anrakyr brings too little value to transport with the Deceiver IMO, I'd rather bring another unit of Lychguard.

I was thinking about using them in 1500 points Battalion in conjunction with Cryptek (Veil) + Zandrekh and Vargard to bring a 10 man squad into the enemies face and I figured that the Sword and Board ones are preferable due to their 4+ invul. save since they will be rather exposed after deleting their target in the first turn.

With the DISPERSION FIELD AMPLIFICATION-stratagem they even get a 3+ invul for the entire enemy shooting phase plus the MW on 6s and there will most likely only be characters in the same area, so they are pretty much the only thing that can be targeted if done right. For T7 targets, there is always the DISRUPTION FIELDS-stratagem.

It's gimmicky and expensive, but it sounds like a fun thing to do at 1,5k points.

BertBert wrote:

It's gimmicky and expensive, but it sounds like a fun thing to do at 1,5k points.

It is fun, I used that type of list against Grey Knights and we had a good game. I wouldn't bring it to a tournament unless I was looking for a pity prize.

TBH, plenty of Necron units are ok for casual play or narrative play. We just struggle in competitive play.

 DV8 wrote:
Hey guys, I attended a narrative event called Astronomi-con in Toronto this past weekend. 5 casual games against some great looking armies.

Click this sentence to check out my reports and photos!

Amazing work. Wish GW would take notes from your work and make those designs official, they are everything I wished this army would look like.

Had an amusing game with this rather bad list vs a Tyranid horde:

Novokh Battallion:

Overlord
Cryptek w/veil

5x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Immortals

Deceiver
10x Scythe Guard

6x Wraith
6x Destroyers

Monolith


I went first and used the Deceiver to move the Monolith up, which Dimensional Corridor-ed the Lychguard for an easy T1 charge.

The Cryptek Veiled the Destroyers in next to the Monolith, and the combined fire from both melted 20 Genestealers.

The Lychguard blended a unit of Gaunts and consolidated into 6x Hive Guard.

The bugs spent their T1 dealing with the Lychguard in their midst.

On my turn 2 the Monolith and Destroyers continued to splat bugs, while the Wraith went in as the second wave.

The Tyranids never really recovered from the turn 1 gut punch which left them on the back foot while I was covering 5 of 6 objectives.

The list worked brilliantly in this game, but could quite easily fall on it's face when going second.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Had an amusing game with this rather bad list vs a Tyranid horde:

Novokh Battallion:

Overlord
Cryptek w/veil

5x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Immortals

Deceiver
10x Scythe Guard

6x Wraith
6x Destroyers

Monolith


I went first and used the Deceiver to move the Monolith up, which Dimensional Corridor-ed the Lychguard for an easy T1 charge.

The Cryptek Veiled the Destroyers in next to the Monolith, and the combined fire from both melted 20 Genestealers.

The Lychguard blended a unit of Gaunts and consolidated into 6x Hive Guard.

The bugs spent their T1 dealing with the Lychguard in their midst.

On my turn 2 the Monolith and Destroyers continued to splat bugs, while the Wraith went in as the second wave.

The Tyranids never really recovered from the turn 1 gut punch which left them on the back foot while I was covering 5 of 6 objectives.

The list worked brilliantly in this game, but could quite easily fall on it's face when going second.

Great, I'm tempted to try this exact gimmick against a Tyranid friend of mine, might steal that list for later

Pyrothem wrote:

 DV8 wrote:
Hey guys, I attended a narrative event called Astronomi-con in Toronto this past weekend. 5 casual games against some great looking armies.

Click this sentence to check out my reports and photos!

Amazing work. Wish GW would take notes from your work and make those designs official, they are everything I wished this army would look like.

Thank you! For sure! Honestly I am not a fan of a huge portion of the Necron range, and I don't understand the design methodology behind it.

torblind wrote:


Great, I'm tempted to try this exact gimmick against a Tyranid friend of mine, might steal that list for later

It should at least be fun. I recommend charging small bugs with destroyers when the opportunity presents itself. They'll kill half a dozen and shrug off the return attacks, and if you can lock the bugs in CC you can't be shot. In your turn you can fall back and shoot thanks to fly.


While the Monolith is still quite bad, it does offer tremendous flexibility once its on the board. With the dimensional corridor strat I had the option of sending the destroyers anywhere within 13" of the monolith (~32" diameter circle) to get shots. Had the Lychguard survived past turn 1 there would have been a ~38" diameter circle centered on the monolith that they could have reliably charged things in. My 5x Immortal "grot squads" could use it to grab any objectives within ~15.5" of the 'lith (~36" diameter circle). If CA2018 gives them a decent point cost reduction I'd be tempted to use 2 Monoliths which could provide excellent board control.


Edit:

Here's a very silly list that can hit ridiculously hard if it gets first turn:

Zandrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/veil

10x Scytheguard
20x Flayed Ones
Deceiver

5x Destroyers
3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs

Monolith


-Deceiver moves himself, the Monolith, and Zandrekh to within 12" of the enemy.

-The Lychguard Dimaensional Corridor for a turn 1 charge.
-Obyron Ghostwalks the Flayed ones to Zandrekh for a T1 charge
-The Cryptek Veils the Destroyers for much shooting.

So the whole army (except 6 Scarabs) teleports into the opponents face turn 1.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

It should at least be fun. I recommend charging small bugs with destroyers when the opportunity presents itself. They'll kill half a dozen and shrug off the return attacks, and if you can lock the bugs in CC you can't be shot. In your turn you can fall back and shoot thanks to fly.

How are you locking 24 gaunts in CC with your 6 destroyers ?

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Here's a very silly list that can hit ridiculously hard if it gets first turn:

Zandrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/veil

10x Scytheguard
20x Flayed Ones
Deceiver

5x Destroyers
3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs

Monolith


-Deceiver moves himself, the Monolith, and Zandrekh to within 12" of the enemy.

-The Lychguard Dimaensional Corridor for a turn 1 charge.
-Obyron Ghostwalks the Flayed ones to Zandrekh for a T1 charge
-The Cryptek Veils the Destroyers for much shooting.

So the whole army (except 6 Scarabs) teleports into the opponents face turn 1.

Big downside is your list only really works if you roll a 3 on the D3. The deceiver and other units must stay more than 12" away from enemy models. The lychguard must be setup wholly within 3" of the monolith, which means they are 9.1" away from enemy models. Turn 1 charge is only 28% successful. Obyron ghostwalk works fine though, the flayed ones would be 5.1" from the enemy. But they are mediocre, not worth the points. Another downside is if nemesor would lose a wound. RAW, the lychguard would suffer a MW on 2+ AND obyron would also suffer a MW on 2+, if they are within 3" of nemesor.

So, you need a 3 on your D3 and the lychguard would need to roll a 9 to charge T1 for your list to wor,k and you would attack 90 horrors, 90 cultists, or whatever chaff there is.

 p5freak wrote:

How are you locking 24 gaunts in CC with your 6 destroyers ?

One way would be(if possible) charge unit A but pile into unit B(but not charge that) so that one model is unable to move out thus preventing unit from falling back. Trickier now that you can't move over enemy in assault phase and can't declare them as charge target as obviously trapped one will be taken as casualty.

Personally I hate this kind of gaming but ah well assault armies are often dependant on this. Wish GW would balance assault armies while removing this kind of gaming

 p5freak wrote:


How are you locking 24 gaunts in CC with your 6 destroyers ?


Big downside is your list only really works if you roll a 3 on the D3. The deceiver and other units must stay more than 12" away from enemy models. The lychguard must be setup wholly within 3" of the monolith, which means they are 9.1" away from enemy models. Turn 1 charge is only 28% successful. Obyron ghostwalk works fine though, the flayed ones would be 5.1" from the enemy. But they are mediocre, not worth the points. Another downside is if nemesor would lose a wound. RAW, the lychguard would suffer a MW on 2+ AND obyron would also suffer a MW on 2+, if they are within 3" of nemesor.

So, you need a 3 on your D3 and the lychguard would need to roll a 9 to charge T1 for your list to wor,k and you would attack 90 horrors, 90 cultists, or whatever chaff there is.

Locking units in CC: After making your attacks, you consolidate in such a way that 1 of the enemy models is surrounded and cannot fall back. You only need to lock one model to prevent a whole unit from falling back. Your opponent may be able to prevent this with careful casualty removal. It's a very fiddly technique, but it's always worth keeping an eye out for the opportunity.

The deceiver moves himself + D3 units, so a 3+ is required to take 2 units with him (I think you can still use a CP to reroll this for a 8/9 chance). Failing that, the cryptek can veil Zandrekh, then Obyron can bring the Flayed Ones, leaving the Destroyers to their own devices.

As per the new FAQ you can now move after exiting the Monolith, so the back of the Lychguards bases will be 8" from the front of the Lith at the end of the movement phase. If the monolith was 12" from the enemy that leaves them with a 3" charge.

If you go first it is two guaranteed first turn charges.

As for screens; it has to be a good screen, and well positioned. This attack can come from anywhere along the opponents battle line. You have a Monolith and destroyers to clear the screens. The two assault units will be inches away from said screens, so if they are cleared in the shooting phase you can charge things deployed close behind them.

Also, Zandrekh is a very small model, so your opponent needs to make sure they leave absolutely no gaps behind their lines or they'll get Flayed Ones in the bum.

In addition, you maybe able to use the aforementioned trick to lock screening units in combat and prevent you from being shot. Zandrekh + Obryon allow you to leave combat and charge again in the same turn, so if you do lock a screen (or get tar-pitted) you can go after something else in your turn.

But yes, this list could be heavily neutered by good screening. Although your opponent does then have a horde of angry robots with Cryptek buffs right in their face.

Ultimately the list is bad because if you go second the whole trick will be telegraphed a turn in advance, and the monolith being destroyed stops it in it's tracks.



Edit: Some further thoughts: With Zandrekh, Obyron, a Veil-tek, and a powerful CC unit, you only need a gap big enough for two bases to be 9" away from enemy models in order to launch a first turn assault. In my experience such gaps are very common in battle lines trying to defend themselves from deep strike shenanigans. It's not the combo the list is going for, but is a nice sneaky fallback option for when you go second or get screened out.

True, the lychguard can now move after being set up from the monolith. Still, an extremely expensive way to get turn 1 charges. Monolith, cryptek, obyron and nemesor are ~800(!) points. As for lócking a single model up with destroyers, that seems very unlikely, FLY doesnt ignore models anymore in the charge/fight phase.

Yeah fly doesn't help anymore. It's just a trick many units can use to their advantage when the opportunity presents itself. I've done it before with Destroyers against 5 man marine scout units that have advance deployed. It's very easy in that scenario.


Other thoughts on possible teleport shenanigans:

On any given turn you can Dimensional Corridor Zandrekh out of a monolith (average ~12" with an advance), then Ghostwalk Obyron and a CC unit 6" from Zan, then charge an average of 8" (7" charge to within an inch).

12+6+8= 26

So with all those pieces in play you can charge at anything within a 58" diameter circle centered on the Monolith.

The only requirement being that you have 1CP and Obyron is within 6" of the CC unit you want. You could pull a unit out of assault and use it to charge something on the other side of the board. Then do it again next turn!

I feel like all my lists in the foreseeable future will contain Zan + Oby, a Veil-tek, Monolith, and deceiver for maximum teleporting action. It might not be good, but it will be interesting.

If they get a massive points drop or a good invulnerable save (maybe Q-shields) I could see a Two Monolith list working. Popping units between them and being a large block of wounds to chew through. Remember that melee armies love to lock units in combat to leapfrog and shield from fire on your turn, Dimensional Corridor stops that strategy cold.: )

Pyrothem wrote:
If they get a massive points drop or a good invulnerable save (maybe Q-shields) I could see a Two Monolith list working. Popping units between them and being a large block of wounds to chew through. Remember that melee armies love to lock units in combat to leapfrog and shield from fire on your turn, Dimensional Corridor stops that strategy cold.: )

Brrrrrrruuuuuhhhhhhhhh
If they dropped Monoliths to 340 points, and gave them QS....that'd be worth considering...

Monolith could get an inv sv, but thats it. No QS, large units dont get that. And btw, you cant dimensional corridor friendly models when they are within 1" of enemy models.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:
If they get a massive points drop or a good invulnerable save (maybe Q-shields) I could see a Two Monolith list working. Popping units between them and being a large block of wounds to chew through. Remember that melee armies love to lock units in combat to leapfrog and shield from fire on your turn, Dimensional Corridor stops that strategy cold.: )

Brrrrrrruuuuuhhhhhhhhh
If they dropped Monoliths to 340 points, and gave them QS....that'd be worth considering...

Yeah I'd take that. Either a drop to 340 and QS or leave them as they are points-wise and give them QS and a 2+ or 4++.

I don't think Necrons are a million miles from viable at a higher level, but they need lots of little changes to most units rather than any big sweeping ones.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah fly doesn't help anymore. It's just a trick many units can use to their advantage when the opportunity presents itself. I've done it before with Destroyers against 5 man marine scout units that have advance deployed. It's very easy in that scenario.


Other thoughts on possible teleport shenanigans:

On any given turn you can Dimensional Corridor Zandrekh out of a monolith (average ~12" with an advance), then Ghostwalk Obyron and a CC unit 6" from Zan, then charge an average of 8" (7" charge to within an inch).

12+6+8= 26

Is that the T1 charge distance above mentioned? Because if that's all don't count on it. If enemy doesn't want you to get T1 charges 26" threat range is quite easily avoidable. Gun lines will just shrug it off. At least h2h armies might have to consider will deploying bit further off or giving you T1 charge be worse

Maybe drop the monolith to roughly the price of two leman russes? Trading damage output for teleporting gimmicks and (albeit worthless) deep strike

torblind wrote:
Maybe drop the monolith to roughly the price of two leman russes? Trading damage output for teleporting gimmicks and (albeit worthless) deep strike

It has the firepower of a single Russ and it's durability is only equal to that of two Russes if it gets to heal for multiple turns. It doesn't have an option to fire at half rate of fire in order to move twice, DS has just been nerfed so I don't really feel the Monolith is superior to the Russ in terms of mobility. It cannot teleport people, those are Stratagems, Russes can also benefit from Stratagems. Monolith Stratagems are better than Russ Stratagems, but they're not better than Extermination Protocols. Russes get objec sec. Russes generate more CP per point invested. Dropping them to the price of two Russes is the least GW can do.

I had this vague recollection that the new Necron MC was due to land this Christmas... was that just wishful thinking?

tneva82 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah fly doesn't help anymore. It's just a trick many units can use to their advantage when the opportunity presents itself. I've done it before with Destroyers against 5 man marine scout units that have advance deployed. It's very easy in that scenario.


Other thoughts on possible teleport shenanigans:

On any given turn you can Dimensional Corridor Zandrekh out of a monolith (average ~12" with an advance), then Ghostwalk Obyron and a CC unit 6" from Zan, then charge an average of 8" (7" charge to within an inch).

12+6+8= 26

Is that the T1 charge distance above mentioned? Because if that's all don't count on it. If enemy doesn't want you to get T1 charges 26" threat range is quite easily avoidable. Gun lines will just shrug it off. At least h2h armies might have to consider will deploying bit further off or giving you T1 charge be worse

No,I wasn't suggesting that as a turn one charge distance. It would be if you just started the Monolith at the edge of your deployment zone, but I think it needs to be advanced deployed with the Deceivers Grand Illusion ability. Doing that puts the 'lith 12" from the enemy which makes charging out of it with the dimensional corridor strat easy.

The 26" distance for Dimansional Corridor > Zandrekh > Obyron > assault unit that I described in that quote is something you could do in later turns, after you have already made a guaranteed T1 charge with Grand Illusion. Or something you could do if you go second and people move back from the Grand Illusioned Monolith (in the unlikely event that they don't just destroy it).


As for changes to the Monoliths rules; Quantum Shielding seems very unlikely, I don't think Chapter Approved will change rules to that extent. I think point reductions are the most we can hope for, and possibly an exception that lets the Emergency Invasion Beam strat work on turn 1. The only thing in the Codex that really needs it's rules changing is the Tesla Destructor, a buff to that could fix three of our worst units: Annihilation Barge, Night Scythe, and Doom Scythe.

I have played the Gauss pylon (also with T8/3+) only once in 8th (where's the fun, really), against AM.

Even with 5++, 5 LRBT variants brough tit down 17 wounds in his first turn of shooting, using only Dmg2 and D3 weapons and heavy bolters.

I don't know how average that is, but his rolls weren't overly particularly.

Not sure how readily available D2-D3 weapons are for others, but QS might not be that big of a deal perhaps. QS would likely shift them to use their lascannons on our destroyers and tomb blades instead.

QS might have a psychological impact though.

sieGermans wrote:I had this vague recollection that the new Necron MC was due to land this Christmas... was that just wishful thinking?

Thats what i was told by the FW guys at the european warhammer fest this year. Christmas is still 10 weeks away, though. Warhammer community had a preview of it some days ago, saying its coming soon.

Boiling down the Monolith's needs to the basics:

A) It's too expensive
B) It's utility as a transport is questionable
C) Its not very survivable

The Monolith is a prime target for points changes so A) should be addressed. They've already started to open up utility so it works better with the rules. That's B)

We don't know about C) but you'd have to assume it might be addressed by improving it's save characteristic to 2+, giving it an invulnerable save, raising its Toughness or giving it QS.

Given that they literally refer to it in the datasheet as a Floating Fortress, I'd personally like T9 and a 2+ save. T9 would mean 4's to wound with Lascannons which I think is appropriate.

As a bonus, I'd quite like it if the Portal of Exile, which is essentially the Eternity Gate in reverse, mirrored that ability so it triggered on charge moves ending within 3" of the Monolith.

We're getting a bit into wishlisting. Probably should take that to the Proposed rules section, there is a thread for it.

Otherwise, until adjusted, mine will gather dust.
I got a game vs Eldar tonight. Should be interesting stuff. Probably semi-casual, so I might try branching out a little bit, run stuff i dont normally use.

Try not using destroyers With the new lack of turn 1 deep strike with them and probably increase in points. get out of the habit of an auto include while it doesn't matter

That and will confused your opponent expecting to fight all the destroyers