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 p5freak wrote:
I just realized that you can combine talent for annihilation and extermination protocols, if you have mephrit destroyers. 18 shots, re-rolling all failed hit rolls, maybe getting even more 6s, which generate more shots, which can also be re-rolled.

Rerolls combine very nicely with exploding 6es.

I had the great misfortune to play against Novokh Wraiths once. They were accompanied by a Warlord Comand Barge with the Novokh exploding 6es aura in CC.

The wraiths would then charge, reroll all hits, any 6es gave more hits. rerolling those hits too. It was massive!

I've been following the discussion very closely and I have to say I really like the work you guys are putting in this. Cheers to everyone for such a nice read and very good ideas/ thoughts.

Besides that, I've started a trend with the my list building. Well, I have 3 Arks ( I use the same model for both variants) and up to this point I was pretty sure I'd only ever play 3x Doomsday Ark. But, I started making this battalion every time I made lists the last week.



which I'll mostly likely support with 2 DDAs and C'tan Deceiver.

So for example a 2k points list with that core would be something like:



So, essentially I want to make sure I get it right, because rules HAVE changed and I'm not sure I got it right, because I'm biased from previous editions. So, is it possible to stick my Lord and Cryptek in the Ghost ark and create a pretty huge fuckin bubble for my warriors to benefit from Fearless, 5++, rerolls and improved RP?

AKA, if I stick the buffing HQ's in a transport, does the transport then become the beacon of the aura, effectively improving the range of the bubble or is that older editions thinking?

Also, I'm up for any comments on that list!

 Odrankt wrote:

elook wrote:
A question regarding The Deceiver's Grand Illusion. Can units and The Deceiver still move/advance after using Grand Illusion, just not charge?

Yes. The only thing you can't do is charge during your 1st turn.

However, if you move and advance your GI’ed characters to within 3” of enemy models, they can Heroic Intervention themselves into combat and attack normally that turn.

sieGermans wrote:

 Odrankt wrote:

elook wrote:
A question regarding The Deceiver's Grand Illusion. Can units and The Deceiver still move/advance after using Grand Illusion, just not charge?

Yes. The only thing you can't do is charge during your 1st turn.

However, if you move and advance your GI’ed characters to within 3” of enemy models, they can Heroic Intervention themselves into combat and attack normally that turn.

This does not work, as you can only use Heroic Intervention after the enemy has finish their charges. And they cant do this on a turn they cant charge.

moonsmite wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 Odrankt wrote:

elook wrote:
A question regarding The Deceiver's Grand Illusion. Can units and The Deceiver still move/advance after using Grand Illusion, just not charge?

Yes. The only thing you can't do is charge during your 1st turn.

However, if you move and advance your GI’ed characters to within 3” of enemy models, they can Heroic Intervention themselves into combat and attack normally that turn.

This does not work, as you can only use Heroic Intervention after the enemy has finish their charges. And they cant do this on a turn they cant charge.

Furthermore you can never Heroically Intervene in your own turn. But it opens up for possiblities in his turn, certainly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 necr0n wrote:
I've been following the discussion very closely and I have to say I really like the work you guys are putting in this. Cheers to everyone for such a nice read and very good ideas/ thoughts.

Besides that, I've started a trend with the my list building. Well, I have 3 Arks ( I use the same model for both variants) and up to this point I was pretty sure I'd only ever play 3x Doomsday Ark. But, I started making this battalion every time I made lists the last week.

Spoiler:

Cryptek (Chronometron)
Lord ( Hyperphase sword)

20 Warriors
20 Warriors
5 - 10 Immortals (Tesla)

Ghost Ark

which I'll mostly likely support with 2 DDAs and C'tan Deceiver.

So for example a 2k points list with that core would be something like:

Spoiler:

Cryptek (Chrono)
Lord (Staff of light)

7 Tesla Immortals
20 Warriors
20 Warriors

Ghost Ark

C'tan shard of the Deceiver

6 Wraiths

6 Destroyers

Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark

I really don't know which dynasty I should go for with this list

So, essentially I want to make sure I get it right, because rules HAVE changed and I'm not sure I got it right, because I'm biased from previous editions. So, is it possible to stick my Lord and Cryptek in the Ghost ark and create a pretty huge fuckin bubble for my warriors to benefit from Fearless, 5++, rerolls and improved RP?

AKA, if I stick the buffing HQ's in a transport, does the transport then become the beacon of the aura, effectively improving the range of the bubble or is that older editions thinking?

Also, I'm up for any comments on that list!

Character auras don't work when they are in a transport. But it is a nice way to bring the HQ's to within reach of your forward deployed Warriors.

I did something similar once, but had 10 warriors as my 3rd option and stuck those in the ghost ark. And I supported that with a fast tomb blade wing (outrider with 2x6 TBs + destroyer lord + scrabs)

50 Mephrit warriors in RF range, do quite some AT heavy lifting, at least plucking off, but more importantly his tanks don't really have that many tanks to shoot at at your side (of course the Ghost Ark is gonna get it)

Not competitive, sure, but still fun. (And better now with point drops)

Discodoggy wrote:
So far I haven't had a ton of fun playing with my Necrons. I've basically been playing "I'm gonna try and shoot you before you assault me". Here's what I have been using for the most part:

DDA
20 Warriors
10 Immortals
5 Destroyers
20 scarabs
AB
Night Scythe
Doom Scythe
Lord and 2 Crypteks

I have these models painted but haven't used them much:
3 Wraiths
3 Spiders

I'm looking to finish collecting/painting my Necron army before summer. I was thinking of getting some Tomb Blades and another DDA as my final additions, but realized that there are some models that I haven't even considered.

I was wondering what people thought of these units, and how I could work them in with what I have:
C'tan Shards
Lychguard
Preatorians

They might help make the battles a little more interesting, but do I really want go in the melee direction with Necrons? Any insight would be appreciated.

I would get a sixth Destroyer for sure. Lychguard and Praetorians are among our weakest choices, C'tan can be cool in the right lists.

Only way i know to make lychguard work without being cost prohibitive is with the deceiver and a night scythe.

GI the Night Scythe up. Lychguard 'teleport' onto the battlefield from the scythe, disembarking 3, moving 5, make a 4 inch charge.

The thing with the Deceiver/Night Scythe strategy is that it rapidly becomes more and more expensive.

Deceiver is 225
Lychguard are 280 I believe,
135 for a Night Scythe

The bear minimum to get one unit into combat turn one and it's more expensive than a full battalion of immortals. That's before you bolt on more Lychguard or another Night Scythe for survivability and the whole thing becomes 1000 points or more.

Which isn't to say it could be worth it in certain matchups, it can wreak havoc on castles and I think Lychguard with Scythes are still one of our most point efficient units for killing Knights.

dapperbandit wrote:
The thing with the Deceiver/Night Scythe strategy is that it rapidly becomes more and more expensive.

Deceiver is 225
Lychguard are 280 I believe,
135 for a Night Scythe

The bear minimum to get one unit into combat turn one and it's more expensive than a full battalion of immortals. That's before you bolt on more Lychguard or another Night Scythe for survivability and the whole thing becomes 1000 points or more.

Which isn't to say it could be worth it in certain matchups, it can wreak havoc on castles and I think Lychguard with Scythes are still one of our most point efficient units for killing Knights.

Eh, forget the 2nd scythe, you can just use the strategem to ensure they get out safely.
The deceiver with cosmic fire would be brutal against a castle.
The scythe is the only real dead weight. Certainly more efficient than the monolith, or Zandrekh/Oby combo

 iGuy91 wrote:

dapperbandit wrote:
The thing with the Deceiver/Night Scythe strategy is that it rapidly becomes more and more expensive.

Deceiver is 225
Lychguard are 280 I believe,
135 for a Night Scythe

The bear minimum to get one unit into combat turn one and it's more expensive than a full battalion of immortals. That's before you bolt on more Lychguard or another Night Scythe for survivability and the whole thing becomes 1000 points or more.

Which isn't to say it could be worth it in certain matchups, it can wreak havoc on castles and I think Lychguard with Scythes are still one of our most point efficient units for killing Knights.

Eh, forget the 2nd scythe, you can just use the strategem to ensure they get out safely.
The deceiver with cosmic fire would be brutal against a castle.
The scythe is the only real dead weight. Certainly more efficient than the monolith, or Zandrekh/Oby combo

Did we ever get an official okay to use invasion beams as if they are disembarking from the get go, or is it beam in from reserves, then treated as disembarking?

The FAQ updated wording has the "counts as having disembarked from a transport" only after they have been setup, and since they are being setup from reserves they are still restricted to turn two, even with the stratagem.

I've read some rules lawyering about using emergency invasion beams turn one. Not sure how credible it is, personally I detest RAI/RAW debates but I do like to play legally.

But as you say, a Night Scythe is a good way to crash land some Lychguard up close, bearing in mind you're going to be spending 1/2CP if you've taken two units of Lychguard

Personally dont believe they should be able to. that said, with all the debate around it, if someone wanted to do it to me i wouldn't stop it. but same time I avoid using the tactic as dont want to play incorrectly

They are really strict on deploying models from off the board turn 1, to the level that I'd expect a very clear wording if it were to be allowed.

If you consider how long ago the beta rule about deep striking came in, and only how recently we received any wording changes by FAQ at all for Night Scythes/Monoliths and how ambiguous that wording remains, I think it's likely that if the wording isn't there it's because it's neglected not deliberately omitted

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Outside Daemons and Imperial Guard which survive the same.

Prepared positions and take cover would be used on the guard, so it's still worth it there. Sure demons wouldn't care, well except for the 60 S 5 shots anyway lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Outside Daemons and Imperial Guard which survive the same.

Prepared positions and take cover would be used on the guard, so it's still worth it there. Sure demons wouldn't care, well except for the 60 S 5 shots anyway lol.

Technically at that point, using solar pulse can also help tesla carve up guard turn 1 by removing a squad you want dead's cover bonus.

dapperbandit wrote:
If you consider how long ago the beta rule about deep striking came in, and only how recently we received any wording changes by FAQ at all for Night Scythes/Monoliths and how ambiguous that wording remains, I think it's likely that if the wording isn't there it's because it's neglected not deliberately omitted

On he other hand, none of the other wordings have been updated to reflect the turn 1 limitation on their deep strike ability.

Consequently one probably should argue that the same applies to night scythes and monoliths. The turn 1 limitation is always there unless explicitly stated otherwise.

A freshfaced user can be expected to read the FAQ and understand the don't-deep-strike-turn1 ruling. He can not be expected to assess when wordings were created and how that can reflect the authors intent.

What are you guys even talking about? The last Big FAQ explicity said to treat the Monolith and Scythe as normal disembarking, much like any other transport. I don't see where the wording is ambiguous.

I feel like acting like the "treat as disembarking" doesn't apply to the entire action is being a bit ridiculous.

To quote the exact wording for reference:
‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this
model and more than 1" from any enemy models;
the unit that has just been set up counts as having
disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’



Side note, I finally acquired two full squads of Tesla Immortals after a year of only Gauss. Awesome.

Let’s not YMDC here.

On the prior point of Heroic Intervention the point regarding it having to be on the opponent’s turn is a good one, and what I was intending.

 Werekill wrote:
What are you guys even talking about? The last Big FAQ explicity said to treat the Monolith and Scythe as normal disembarking, much like any other transport. I don't see where the wording is ambiguous.

Monoliths and Night Scythes are not like any other transports, they are in fact not transports at all. Even if your local TO okays "having disembarked" T1 with invasion beams, there is no reason why it would be okay to use the emergency invasion beams Stratagem turn 1, so the strategy is still dead if you go second, the best knowledge you can have of who is going to go first or second is 84%, in anything except CA2018 it's much more uncertain and you'll be several hundred pts down for very little durability.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Werekill wrote:
What are you guys even talking about? The last Big FAQ explicity said to treat the Monolith and Scythe as normal disembarking, much like any other transport. I don't see where the wording is ambiguous.

Monoliths and Night Scythes are not like any other transports, they are in fact not transports at all. Even if your local TO okays "having disembarked" T1 with invasion beams, there is no reason why it would be okay to use the emergency invasion beams Stratagem turn 1, so the strategy is still dead if you go second, the best knowledge you can have of who is going to go first or second is 84%, in anything except CA2018 it's much more uncertain and you'll be several hundred pts down for very little durability.

Yeah they wouldn't get to be placed in the first place because of the beta rules being in effect, and thus they never get to be treated as disembarking from a transport. Treating them as disembarking took care of another problem, it has the excellent effect of letting them move that movement phase, which this mechanic was sorely missing.

torblind wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Werekill wrote:
What are you guys even talking about? The last Big FAQ explicity said to treat the Monolith and Scythe as normal disembarking, much like any other transport. I don't see where the wording is ambiguous.

Monoliths and Night Scythes are not like any other transports, they are in fact not transports at all. Even if your local TO okays "having disembarked" T1 with invasion beams, there is no reason why it would be okay to use the emergency invasion beams Stratagem turn 1, so the strategy is still dead if you go second, the best knowledge you can have of who is going to go first or second is 84%, in anything except CA2018 it's much more uncertain and you'll be several hundred pts down for very little durability.

Yeah they wouldn't get to be placed in the first place because of the beta rules being in effect, and thus they never get to be treated as disembarking from a transport. Treating them as disembarking took care of another problem, it has the excellent effect of letting them move that movement phase, which this mechanic was sorely missing.

GW could just have let them do it at the end of the Movement phase, wouldn't be any stronger than Valkyries for the Night Scythes or Drop Pods for the Monoliths. Instead we get this garbo where it is essentially a worthless rule unless you are willing to invest CP to make it not horrible. The Monolith is already DSing more than 12" away, it's like it was meant to have them arrive more than 9" away. Instead they write this confusing mess of counting as having disembarked after actually arriving. I'll point out another thing it's good for, you can't use Stratagems to fire at units coming out from a Tomb World, I guess that's nice.

 iGuy91 wrote:



Eh, forget the 2nd scythe, you can just use the strategem to ensure they get out safely.
The deceiver with cosmic fire would be brutal against a castle.
The scythe is the only real dead weight. Certainly more efficient than the monolith, or Zandrekh/Oby combo

I've had the pleasure/horror of seeing a perfect storm play out with this scenario. It was against a T'au + Primaris alliance, and I got first turn.

I placed the Deceiver as close as possible to the primaris player's castle and managed to roll a 6 on my advance. He was now stood in a just small enough gap next to a cluster of characters, surrounded by a whole load of hellblasters, aggressors and intercessors. I used the stratagem to use a second power and the stars just aligned. Double cosmic fire, in the heart of his castle.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure he killed something along the lines of 600 points. My dice were also super hot, it was a massacre.

 Werekill wrote:
What are you guys even talking about? The last Big FAQ explicity said to treat the Monolith and Scythe as normal disembarking, much like any other transport. I don't see where the wording is ambiguous.

I feel like acting like the "treat as disembarking" doesn't apply to the entire action is being a bit ridiculous.

To quote the exact wording for reference:
‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this
model and more than 1" from any enemy models;
the unit that has just been set up counts as having
disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’

Side note, I finally acquired two full squads of Tesla Immortals after a year of only Gauss. Awesome.

As worded, the FAQ follows this order of operations:
1. Setup a unit on the table.
2. That unit can now be considered "disembarked"

It does not explicitly say that the models are treated as Embarked, then they are setup on the table. The unit is in one of the many loosely defined "reserve" locations, and subject to the effectively no "reserves" turn 1.

A similar move can be done with other tricks. i.e. Deceiver + Monolith/1cp Dimensional Corridor + units hiding on the table. You could even hope to roll 2+ to also tag along some Immortals/warriors for shooting at any screens.

As for the Immortals, as soon as 8th hit, I converted all of my Gauss to Tesla as I still had the bits around.
Got the new Green Plastic Immortals from the Kill Team box, those I will make into Gauss, just to have only 5 of them.

I think it's fairly clear to me that the RAI is for the monolith and night scythe to work exactly like transports, but if you think differently, no worries.

I still believe that the intent is for the set up to completely count as disembarking. It just doesn't make sense otherwise with the wording to me.

 Werekill wrote:
I think it's fairly clear to me that the RAI is for the monolith and night scythe to work exactly like transports, but if you think differently, no worries.

I still believe that the intent is for the set up to completely count as disembarking. It just doesn't make sense otherwise with the wording to me.

It does make sense, the new wording let's them move after coming out, this was sorely needed and fixed with that change.

I'm inclined to think that you can disembark from our "transports" turn 1 due to the FAQ, but it's ambiguous and shouldn't be taken for granted.

It's also kind of irrelevant as Lychguard from a Grand Illusioned Mono/Scythe still requires you to go first to be any good. If you go second the Scythe will be shot down, the Lychguard will then be either shot, charged, backed away from, screened, or the Scythe will be surrounded so they can't disembark.

NZ + VO + Veil carrier = ~350pts and all but guarantees the Lychguard get to charge.

Deceiver + Night Scythe = 360pts and needs to go first to work.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm inclined to think that you can disembark from our "transports" turn 1 due to the FAQ, but it's ambiguous and shouldn't be taken for granted.

agreed

the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes - emphasis mine.

all rules includes those that consider arrival on the table

you set them up same time as the vehicle in deployment just like a transport, the exception is they are not transports so need this ruling to do so (it would have been so much easier to make them actual <TRANSPORT> but I can see why .. because capacity is a thing.

 Werekill wrote:
I think it's fairly clear to me that the RAI is for the monolith and night scythe to work exactly like transports, but if you think differently, no worries.

I still believe that the intent is for the set up to completely count as disembarking. It just doesn't make sense otherwise with the wording to me.

If that was the intent, then there should have been a different order of operations.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm inclined to think that you can disembark from our "transports" turn 1 due to the FAQ, but it's ambiguous and shouldn't be taken for granted.

agreed

the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes - emphasis mine.

all rules includes those that consider arrival on the table

you set them up same time as the vehicle in deployment just like a transport, the exception is they are not transports so need this ruling to do so (it would have been so much easier to make them actual <TRANSPORT> but I can see why .. because capacity is a thing.

Except that you do not set them up in the vehicle, they are set up in the Tomb World, which puts them into "reserves." It does not say "transport" in the new wording at all.

You are giving a unit a "treated as" ability before it is even set up. The wording applies the "treated as" AFTER it has been setup.

 Draco765 wrote:


Except that you do not set them up in the vehicle, they are set up in the Tomb World, which puts them into "reserves."

because you can't put something into either as they do not have the transport keyword. the FAQ clarifies that you treat them as disembarking because you have the option to 'transport' as many units as you choose to risk.

the treat them as disembarking tells you to do just that ... follow ALL the rules as you would if disembarking a unit.

it can't be any clearer.