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 vict0988 wrote:
I've ran 60 Immortals in I don't know how many games and I lose maybe 3 models/game to morale. Immortal Pride is worse than Hype Strat unless you are running Warriors. If your opponent tries to push hard for the Morale value you can re-roll or auto pass for CP, your opponent will have no reason to try their luck if you are Fearless. Imotekh is also our toughest HQ (unless you use Relic + WL trait on a D-Lord), it makes perfect sense to make him your WL.

Agreed. With silver tide immortal pride is an auto take, but not with immortals. With immortal pride is you are forcing your opponent to kill the entire squad, maybe overshooting them. Without immortal pride he can leave 1 or 2 alive (if the unit has 10), to force you to spend 2 CP, or lose them to morale.

So with Spasse Marines getting a 2.0 shot in the arm: offense power upped and P Marines getting more wounds.

Do we have an idea on how to mitigate the coming wave?

Pyrothem wrote:
So with Spasse Marines getting a 2.0 shot in the arm: offense power upped and P Marines getting more wounds.

Do we have an idea on how to mitigate the coming wave?

Tbh, it kinda looks like you just have to double down on destroyers and doomsday Arks, as well as tripointing wraiths in assault effectively. Nephrekh might be mandatory to ensure your destroyers can actually survive T1 and be at their optimal target from the 1CP deep strike stratagem now that T1 drop pods are a thing as well as the devastator doctrine making a huge bunch of weapons gain extra AP.

Yeah with all the extra AP and Damage filling their ranks Wrathes may have to find a way into lists. I don't think Destroyers will, even with a Nephrekh drop with Aspecks Scan they will be blown off the board with ease.

Pyrothem wrote:
So with Spasse Marines getting a 2.0 shot in the arm: offense power upped and P Marines getting more wounds.

Do we have an idea on how to mitigate the coming wave?

Hope that we'll get steroids soon after.
With our mediocre damage output, defenses and buffs fighting SM suddenly seems a hell lot harder. You'll pretty much need to fill your lists with several units of destroyers, wraiths and vehicles.

I just watched Tabletop Tactics' battle report with the new Ultramarines vs Necrons that was uploaded yesterday, and it may be the most severe roflstomp I have ever seen on the channel.

The necron list wasn't super competitive, but by no means casual, having 30 timmortals, 6 wraiths and destroyers, 2 DDAs, scarabs for screening and a triarch stalker, as well as OL+Cryptek+Lord for HQs.

The SM had first turn and just deleted units left and right, whereas the Necrons did very little in return, and this is essentially how the game went on throughout. I am quite dejected about our prospects, things are simply not looking good.

I believe GW has overdone buffing SM. All factions will suffer, until they get their new codices. Top5 lists in future tournaments will be SM only.

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:
I just watched Tabletop Tactics' battle report with the new Ultramarines vs Necrons that was uploaded yesterday, and it may be the most severe roflstomp I have ever seen on the channel.

The necron list wasn't super competitive, but by no means casual, having 30 timmortals, 6 wraiths and destroyers, 2 DDAs, scarabs for screening and a triarch stalker, as well as OL+Cryptek+Lord for HQs.

The SM had first turn and just deleted units left and right, whereas the Necrons did very little in return, and this is essentially how the game went on throughout. I am quite dejected about our prospects, things are simply not looking good.

I dunno, the necron player lose all his Destroyer with an error (Destroyers not in cryptek 5++ aura) and some luck for the rerolls of the grav guns. In general the Necron player make some mistakes and have bad rolls.

On the other hand, the necron list is indeed not that bad (maybe too much scarabs, but with the new drop pods, it made sense) while the SM list seems a collection of things that were good in other editions piled together and it manage to destroy ~450 points of necron in no time (with heavy CP burn, but still). The first turn of the necron is hilariously bad, or sad, or both.

When the SM players will crunch this book and go for optimized lists, it will be scary. Finger crossed for the same amount of work on a new necron codex, like a monolith dropping turn one and disembarking, but i'm pretty sure we will not have this

Yeah that game was painful to watch. Much as I love Bone, he doesn't seem to do well using Necrons.

I think part of that is relatively limited Necron Army they have. I've seen them use a single Doom Scythe before, and a Monolith, but never tomb blades. They also seem utterly reluctant to mix Dynasty Codes in different detachments so they don't make the most of what they have.

It's just a fact that DDAs are swingy in shots and damage but he moved them when he didn't need to and you could question his targetting.

dapperbandit wrote:
Yeah that game was painful to watch. Much as I love Bone, he doesn't seem to do well using Necrons.

I think part of that is relatively limited Necron Army they have. I've seen them use a single Doom Scythe before, and a Monolith, but never tomb blades. They also seem utterly reluctant to mix Dynasty Codes in different detachments so they don't make the most of what they have.

It's just a fact that DDAs are swingy in shots and damage but he moved them when he didn't need to and you could question his targetting.

I think they wanted to show the new book off from a good side, they could have picked Imperial Soup and gak all over them most likely.

Yeah I've always thought Bone struggles with necrons. It was a mixture of mistakes, poor deployment and bad dice. New marines are strong, but that match shouldn't be so heavily in favour of marines.

But in Bone's defense, Chronometron being a 3" aura is gak.

Yeah, the 3" range and the high price is why I don't bother taking chronos anymore. Canoptek Cloaks are cheaper and they serve as great Veil of Darkness delivery systems.

I tend to run my cryptek with neither, since its kitbashed and not modelled with neither the cloak nor a chronometron.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen any list where the cryptek doesn't have either a chrono or cloak. Is the general consensus that crypteks shouldn't be taken naked?

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:
I tend to run my cryptek with neither, since its kitbashed and not modelled with neither the cloak nor a chronometron.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen any list where the cryptek doesn't have either a chrono or cloak. Is the general consensus that crypteks shouldn't be taken naked?

I'm pretty sure you have to take at least one. There is no "naked" cryptek.
Edit : Oh wow you can take it naked. Huh. I guess I need to find something to call a chronometron to put on my kit bashed cryptek. It does have a glowing ball thing on the back of its head, so I guess that can be it.

Yeah, they come with the staff only, then may take either chrono or cloak.

Mine has two coils protruding from its back, so if I have the points I'll just say they're the things generating the chronometron field

Wait wait...who said we re getting 2.0 dexes? As far as I know SM are for now the only ones because they are the poster boys

I don’t think anyone is expecting a 2.0. I reckon the SM 2.0 was meant to:

1. Reconcile Primaris into the general SM
2. Fix/Nerf Imperial Soup
3. Sell more models via Chapter Tactics, Guilliman tweak/nerf

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Wait wait...who said we re getting 2.0 dexes? As far as I know SM are for now the only ones because they are the poster boys

The new codex SM isnt 2.0, not officially, its just a new SM codex. Only CSM have gotten a 2.0 codex so far.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Wait wait...who said we re getting 2.0 dexes? As far as I know SM are for now the only ones because they are the poster boys

Simple logic. You think they are going to stop producing codexes forever? What next? You expect 8th ed be the final edition with no updates? GW always claims that too. They claimed 6th would be the ultimate ruleset. And 7th.

GW always does new rounds in eternal loop. And why not? It's "print me some money" button. Chaos got new codex. Marines got new codex. Dark angels will be soonish be getting new codex. And eventually every codecx will be redone whether in 8th ed or in 9th ed(which will be coming next or year after that most likely with codex compatibility). And eventually even those will be redone.

It's GW's eternal loop. GW has done nothing to indicate they have stopped that. If anything AOS has it revved up a notch.

And again there's very simple reason for it. Every time they release codex it not only gives them instant sales(how many necron players would rather not continue to play rather than buy new one?) and models as rules change making new unit good and attracting new players. If GW would not rerelease necron codex ever they would basically settle for trickle sales for necrons.

It's not question of whether others do or not. It's just question of when. 2020? 2021?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Wait wait...who said we re getting 2.0 dexes? As far as I know SM are for now the only ones because they are the poster boys

The new codex SM isnt 2.0, not officially, its just a new SM codex. Only CSM have gotten a 2.0 codex so far.

Yeah well officially 40k rulebook is just a rulebook and not 8 edition. GW doesn't number things. It's replacement for previous codex/rulebook. It's GW style. And hey even chaos codex doesn't refer itself as 2.0 codex.

They labelled the Chaos Codex II.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines <- that's the title in the shop.

There is a small second edition icon on it though, just fyi (no malicious intent, you may have missed it as I did until I bought it)

What kind of changes to the new and improved Marine dex would you suggest? In what way will the meta shift?

Aggressors using Tactical Doctrine will be now be adding -1AP to their barrel of dice attacks making them even deadlier.

Also quite possible people will start using drop pods to deliver alpha strikes turn one as Space Marines can now do this (though I believe jump pack infantry and Primaris models can't be carried by drop pods)

schaff/hordes and T8 parks in the back seems to have been a thing with 8th over all.

Necrons on the other hand seemed more geared towards elitish infantry, with plenty of S6/S7 weaponry with -1 and -2 AP, but not as easy access to S8 and above. (Any price efficient S8+ weaponry has been auto incldes almost, DDAs, Scyhtes), and destroyers have the stratagem to make their S6 fantastic anyway.

The new SM codex has perhaps brought elite infantry back in the meta again, only sucks that we can't really handle them anyway. Or they eat us up before we get to do anything.

Maybe a pseudo Silvertide will be a good solution going forward. Hordes are already a thing and Mephrit would be devastating at the close range that the SM like to operate in.

Maybe trying the warrior blocks might be something to look into again. Keeping Warriors with the shieldtek 5++ would mitigate anything over -1 ap. Keeping a defense stance and hiding a chunk of warriors from being wiped(easier said then done) we may be able to out last them.

I think trying to out damage Space Marines now is impossible so we need to switch to out lasting them. I don't think we are going to get a new book till next year at the soonest so I guess trying out different lists till something sticks.

If we get a new book this side of 2021, I will eat my hat.

More realistically, I expect it will be a Fall 2022 release at the soonest.

Pyrothem wrote:
Maybe trying the warrior blocks might be something to look into again. Keeping Warriors with the shieldtek 5++ would mitigate anything over -1 ap. Keeping a defense stance and hiding a chunk of warriors from being wiped(easier said then done) we may be able to out last them.

I think trying to out damage Space Marines now is impossible so we need to switch to out lasting them. I don't think we are going to get a new book till next year at the soonest so I guess trying out different lists till something sticks.

You can't outlast them. Necrons aren't durable whatsoever outside a couple niche units.

Yeah, for the durable army they aren't really that durable.
Warriors need their 3+ back, Chronos and technomancer need to have longer range and immortals need either 2W or T5.
Blanket FNP is a bad idea, imo. That would just turn necrons into Deathguard, and if I wanted to play Death Guard I'll go play Death Guard.
RP needs to be supported more. In the 3rd ed book the army was practically built around WBB, with various rules and items directly buffing it. This edition...not so much.

Some ideas -

-Monolith provides rerolls to all units, similar to how the GA works

-Increase technomancer to 6"

-Give spyders technomancer, or something similar

-Make the resurrection orb actually worth something. A 35 point one use item that provides a mere reroll is just sad. If you are going to make it provide rerolls, at least remove the 1 use limit.

-Wiped squads can roll for RP, but only if there is a unit of the same type within 6" and may not receive buffs no rerolls, as the unit technically no longer exists. Any model that fails its roll in this case is permanently removed as a casualty. Models that succeed join the closest unit of the same type within this 6"