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Umm that was pretty much what i was going for(btw i never did 3+/5++ obviously). Before 3+ was generally useful with odd 5++ to intercept odd lascannon/dread fist. Now with -2 becoming norm(poor immortals) was thinking is there point for 5++ as standard.

Bigger issue than cost is imo losing ignore cover(price was same before anyway. 5 pts for 5++, 5pts for 3+ and ignore cover.

Either way i'm expecting to rol for 5's at best.

I never took ignore cover personally anyway. Just the +1 save. But I guess I am the less common dude that swears by gaus blasters, which need it less and I can always solar pulse in a pinch. Either way I am not sure the 5++ is worth it, I usually find my bikes are getting hit by volume more then high AP. Even when it's both I rarely encounter higher then -2, so I still have a 5+ but I do often encounter loads of ap- and having that 3+ or 2+ in cover is huge.

Well there's enough cover here that the 2+ saves becomes rather hard to deal. And solar pulse costs CP plus ensures other units can't do it.

tneva82 wrote:
Well there's enough cover here that the 2+ saves becomes rather hard to deal. And solar pulse costs CP plus ensures other units can't do it.

Well then you have your answer. I have no idea what gun your running, which makes a pretty big difference too. Like I said, I run gauss blasters on my TB's. I get enough ap- on my immortals. You need to get closer but with a 14" move and fly it isn't an issue plus I can assault to tie something up and if I play it right I can wrap the target pretty easily since TB's hit like a pillow in melee but are tougher then $2 steak.

How does necrons stands against SM 2.0 ? Have you found it to be an uphill, a difficult battle ? Or more or less the same as before?

 godardc wrote:
How does necrons stands against SM 2.0 ? Have you found it to be an uphill, a difficult battle ? Or more or less the same as before?

No way same as before. They got tons of new buffs with zero debuffs and also point drops so they took HUGE up. And it shows already in tournaments with top-4 more and more held by either ultramarines or even more likely iron hands. Hate to sound pessimistic but necrons are totally screwed against iron hands. Their vehicles are ridiculously tough even without considering leviathan(which you just need to accept you are not going to kill. Consider this: Pylon and three doomsday ark barely equal their REPAIR RATE. So you need more than pylon and 3 doomsday ark to cause more damage in average than he repairs in a turn!!!) the vehicles are going to be resisting your fire. Destroyers? With average damage of 1.3333 per wound past save they aren't doing enough. They can sport -2 to hit flyers which fire tons of S5 fire to make mess of your infantry. Thunderfire cannons fire out of LOS more infantry killing stuff. And good luck dealing with say tripple executioner repulsor list. Pylon and 3 dda will just about kill one a turn.

Expect to see armies like the 5++ bubble guy and -1 damage bubble supporting triple executioners. Or triple flyers. And invictor suits with long range guns are looking to be rather popular.

And in case you are hoping to play mission...Keep in mind this gunline is not actually static as it can move and shoot at will...So they can move around to get those objectives as well.

ATM marines 2.0 are looking to be way above others.

 godardc wrote:
How does necrons stands against SM 2.0 ? Have you found it to be an uphill, a difficult battle ? Or more or less the same as before?

Had a tough game vs new marines running a leafblower tank castle (x2 Sicarian Punishers, x2 Redemptors, a Deredeo, hellblasters, intercessors, Chapter Master)...stayed in the heavy doctrine all game (was using the Raven Guard Cover Tactic, and the Salamanders Re-roll to hit/wound tactic). I deployed pretty evenly, and seized the initiative, and had to capitalize on reducing his firepower so I could survive long enough to get a big point lead.

I noted that our infantry are so darn squishy....and AP-2 heavy bolters made it painfully obvious. I had 20 warriors, and 2x10 immortals.They were all dead by the bottom of turn 3.
I also noted that the perma-cover from Raven Guard made tesla feel nearly useless. Everything had a 2+ save, constantly. It was obnoxious.

I still managed to pull out a win by playing objectives and using doomsday arks at extreme range to pick off tanks, and my wraiths successfully suicide charged the castle just to tie 50% of it up for a turn.

MVPs....were probably my 2x4 scarabs zooming around with Nephrehk to grab objectives all game, assisting me greatly in scoring domination on a gamble, which was worth 3+d3, x2 points, resulting in 12 points, causing an immediate concession. As the score was roughly 22 to 4

There are some matchups where Tesla becomes excruciatingly ineffective. Custodes with that -1 to hit relic comes to mind

New ravenguard is also nasty. 2+ armour and -1 to hit when they are in cover. Bloody hell. And solar pulse negates just the save bonus, not the -1. And necron's arent' exactly getting close fast...

seeing 3+ and 5++ used in the same sentence, what exactly do people mean by these notations, I thought I knew but not so certain now, I assume that 3+ and 3++, for example, don't mean the same thing. I thought they did.

X+ is armor.

X++ is Invulnerable.

X+++ is FNP.

FNP= ignore wounds

It's short hand by older players but not called feel no pain anymore.

And our poor vehicles are going to get massacred by imperial fists. Heavy bolters with d2 and exploding 6's, assault cannons with d2 etc. Meanwhile they will also do numbers on our infantry with easily 100 shots with exploding 6's. Ugh.

Kill power in 40k is getting ridiculous. Starts to be that warriors should be 3+ and immortals t5 or w2 or both to keep up

Getting? Kill power in 40k was ludicrous form the start of 8th and somehow has managed to derail further. I called this during the summer of 8th dropping.
-Hike points so new standard increases from 1850 to 2000. Check

-Increase Damage output across the board so games appear faster. Check

-Slowly but steadily drop points back to 7th edition standard so folks are playing with massive armies. Check

-Profit

But in order to keep the game exciting they have to continue to add bloat lol. So now the game is this unwieldy mess reduced to who stacked more filth in their list.

The game already needs a reset, desperately. Personally I think they royally dropped the ball with free relics and stratagems. There is no objective way to balance those tings, in a game that is already incredibly difficult to balance.

Strats should have been released with the seasonal chapter approved and been universal. Change them up each year to alter the meta and keep the game fresh and evolving. Everyone should have access to the same pool of them. Instead we still only have 3 basic strats, but about 500+ "unique" snowflake strats. It's stupid. CP's should have also been handled better, you should get them on a sliding scale from detachments based on points invested. You spend 200 on a battalion you get 3, you spend 500, you get 5 etc. This helps prevent whoring out cheap factions as CP batteries and lets armies like custodes play from a single battalion.

There's no denying we need a buff across the board. Even a Psychic Awakening book is only going to be a stopgap because so much of our army needs fixing. best we can hope for in PA is Imotekh and Flayed Ones combo in plastic (which I'm all about tbf)

I am pretty confident we'll be getting a new book next year though. We have too much finecast to fix with just a PA book and they want rid of it asap.

IanVanCheese wrote:
There's no denying we need a buff across the board. Even a Psychic Awakening book is only going to be a stopgap because so much of our army needs fixing. best we can hope for in PA is Imotekh and Flayed Ones combo in plastic (which I'm all about tbf)

I am pretty confident we'll be getting a new book next year though. We have too much finecast to fix with just a PA book and they want rid of it asap.

I'm not quite that confident. If the rumours are true, we can expect a Psychic Awakening book every month for the next five month. That leave little room for other releases/books imho.

Seeing how PA is quite underwhelming for Drukhari, i fear that PA will not be enough, and that we will not see a codex mark 2 soon.

PA is a stop-gap - a way to release new stuff and give it rules without having to redo a whole codex. It won't stop them redoing codexes, it just means other armies get stuff in the interim too.

Hopefully anyway...

IanVanCheese wrote:
There's no denying we need a buff across the board. Even a Psychic Awakening book is only going to be a stopgap because so much of our army needs fixing. best we can hope for in PA is Imotekh and Flayed Ones combo in plastic (which I'm all about tbf)

I am pretty confident we'll be getting a new book next year though. We have too much finecast to fix with just a PA book and they want rid of it asap.

One issue necrons have is all this lethality increase makes necron rules more and more irrelevant. Rp? Useless(and with that crypteks and ghost arks). Living metal? Nope. Quantum shielding also losing with all new d2 spam's.

Finecast removal has been theorised for years but at the current rate we are looking at 12th edition codex for that

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
There's no denying we need a buff across the board. Even a Psychic Awakening book is only going to be a stopgap because so much of our army needs fixing. best we can hope for in PA is Imotekh and Flayed Ones combo in plastic (which I'm all about tbf)

I am pretty confident we'll be getting a new book next year though. We have too much finecast to fix with just a PA book and they want rid of it asap.

One issue necrons have is all this lethality increase makes necron rules more and more irrelevant. Rp? Useless(and with that crypteks and ghost arks). Living metal? Nope. Quantum shielding also losing with all new d2 spam's.

Finecast removal has been theorised for years but at the current rate we are looking at 12th edition codex for that

Yeah Quantum Shielding isn't what it once was. I think it'll get changed to -1 damage next time around ala wave serpents. We need changes to our survivability rules though, agreed. My theory on Crypteks is that they'll gain similar abilities to chaplains. 6 options, all throwbacks to the old customisation options they had. RP will get some sort of buff (Res orbs work on dead units is my guess).

That's not strictly true. People have chosen volume fire every edition of the game. And it has been the go to method for dealing with things like knights etc. since they have invulns. If anything our quantum shielding went UP in value since folks will probably be ditching the damage two with the iron stone in the meta.

I honestly can say I hope they don't change quantum shielding, it's one of the most unique and flavorful rules in the game. That said, they could tie it to the degradation table. On full power it could be as is now plus reduce damage, mid way just as is now and lowest bracket it's gone. This would make living metal more interesting as well, since it would be self repairing and bringing full shields back online slowly.

The biggest issue with our tanks is the garbage armor save and toughness. Why would solid living alien metal be low toughness and armor lol?

That and tesla needs a rework. The lack of AP makes it silly. At least make it ignore cover verse armor 3+ or better or something, it's electricity after all.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Yeah Quantum Shielding isn't what it once was. I think it'll get changed to -1 damage next time around ala wave serpents. We need changes to our survivability rules though, agreed. My theory on Crypteks is that they'll gain similar abilities to chaplains. 6 options, all throwbacks to the old customisation options they had. RP will get some sort of buff (Res orbs work on dead units is my guess).

I hope you are right

I fear that Necron are not a top seller and are not high on the redoing/reworking priority list for GW. The consistency of GW designing non working special rules (RP, Tomb World comes to mind, but the spyder's scarab regeneration is hilariously bad), or plain absence of rule, does not make me very optimistic about the amount of work they are ready to give some factions.

The space marine rework may be a once-in-edition one. It seems they worked a lot on this one. On the other hand, the last CSM book is supposedly a 2nd edition (it's even labelled on the book), and it's rather disappointing.

If we get a new book like the CSM one, we're toasted for the rest of the edition. But to be fair, as we have no new units (like shadowspear) i don't know why they would do a new codex in the first place.

 Red Corsair wrote:
That's not strictly true. People have chosen volume fire every edition of the game. And it has been the go to method for dealing with things like knights etc. since they have invulns. If anything our quantum shielding went UP in value since folks will probably be ditching the damage two with the iron stone in the meta.

I honestly can say I hope they don't change quantum shielding, it's one of the most unique and flavorful rules in the game. That said, they could tie it to the degradation table. On full power it could be as is now plus reduce damage, mid way just as is now and lowest bracket it's gone. This would make living metal more interesting as well, since it would be self repairing and bringing full shields back online slowly.

The biggest issue with our tanks is the garbage armor save and toughness. Why would solid living alien metal be low toughness and armor lol?

That and tesla needs a rework. The lack of AP makes it silly. At least make it ignore cover verse armor 3+ or better or something, it's electricity after all.

Any buff to Tesla will come with the added change that it'll be unmodified 6s explode. It's been that way for everything recently. It's both a nerf and a buff, but it does negate the current MWBD shenanigans that we use. Tbh, I doubt tesla will be buffed at all, they'll buff our other infantry/weapons first.

I agree that QS is cool and unique, I hope it stays as is. I just doubt it will. I wouldn't mind our QS vehicles staying weak if the non-QS ones got a lot tougher. The monolith is a joke atm. I genuinely don't think they'd see much play if you halved their points. They need a total rework.

One issue with monolith is that if you have just 1 or 2 portal it'" basically inferior transport method. To have benefit from it you would need several. But no cheap portals. And monolith needs ds which leaves little room for guys inside...

It should be slow, but nearly unkillable. I always thought it should regen back to full wounds at the start of the turn if you didn't finish it It's essentially a solid brick of living metal.

It's more realistic to expect an invuln and maybe a 2+ save though

Honestly we need wargear tweaks most. Warscythes for example should have a mortal wound mechanic, they used to ignore invulns lol. Better armor saves. longer ranges etc.

It needs to be able to deepstrike anywhere without impunity.
The reason why it had deepstrike protection is because the devs knew back then that if it didn't, then it won't be able to land anywhere because of its size.

Then it lost it in 5th ed because the new devs didn't realize that, so now we are stuck with a support vehicle that's too slow to move on the table and too big to deepstrike. Its just bad design, and GW needs to get their gak together and think things through for more than 10 seconds.

Being able to land anywhere (but still not get dudes out until the turn after) or as is, but dudes can disembark at once would be great.

Agree that it needs a 2+/5++ at a minimum. Also better weapons and a better version of the portal of exile. Living metal needs to go to D3 as standard for all vehicles too.

So not asking much, but it is one of the most underpowered units in the game currently (along with the Obelisk).

It's an obvious victim of 8th edition beta rules as well.

The clunky wording preventing the Monolith from dropping units off the turn it arrives would have been somewhat mitigated by it's ability to deep strike turn one. Now of course it can't, so unless it starts on the table (or gets destroyed Turn 2) you can't get troops out of it till Turn 3. The Codex version of it I believe is barely different from the Index datasheet.

It exists with a design philosophy remains wildly behind the pace of this edition.

dapperbandit wrote:
It's an obvious victim of 8th edition beta rules as well.

The clunky wording preventing the Monolith from dropping units off the turn it arrives would have been somewhat mitigated by it's ability to deep strike turn one. Now of course it can't, so unless it starts on the table (or gets destroyed Turn 2) you can't get troops out of it till Turn 3. The Codex version of it I believe is barely different from the Index datasheet.

It exists with a design philosophy remains wildly behind the pace of this edition.

This is a really good point. You should email this in for Spring FAQ consideration.

So I've just come back after a long-ish hiatus of not following 40k, and my god do the new marines looked roided to gak and back.

How are necrons fairing now that marines have better versions of our gauss rifles, and imperial fists have inbuilt tesla on all their bolters?
Is it even worth playing any xenos race bar flying eldar

Its not just xenos, its any faction, except eldar flyer spam.