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IanVanCheese wrote:
I'd like to see them get a buff once they've killed something. Call it Blood Frenzy, give them extra move or attacks or something after they munch a unit.

That'd be interesting, but not very good. Their main issue is that initial charge-so buffing themselves AFTER they get their charge off wouldn't do much to solve their issue.

And, knowing, GW, they'd probably do something useless like this:

"After a FLAYED ONES Unit wipes an enemy unit in close combat, roll a d6 and apply the following effect to the unit:

1: Satiated
The unit's move drops to 4".

2-3: Nothing
The unit is unaffected.

4-5: Hungry For More
The unit's move increases to 6".

6: Bloodhungry
The unit's move increases to 6" and gains +2" on advance rolls."

 JNAProductions wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'd like to see them get a buff once they've killed something. Call it Blood Frenzy, give them extra move or attacks or something after they munch a unit.

That'd be interesting, but not very good. Their main issue is that initial charge-so buffing themselves AFTER they get their charge off wouldn't do much to solve their issue.

And, knowing, GW, they'd probably do something useless like this:

"After a FLAYED ONES Unit wipes an enemy unit in close combat, roll a d6 and apply the following effect to the unit:

1: Satiated
The unit's move drops to 4".

2-3: Nothing
The unit is unaffected.

4-5: Hungry For More
The unit's move increases to 6".

6: Bloodhungry
The unit's move increases to 6" and gains +2" on advance rolls."

Yeah no I meant that alongside some other buffs. I honestly think fixing the monolith fixes half of our other units. We need a delivery system. The Monolith should, and used to be that delivery system. If they could reliably attack out of it, then a buff for them once they've killed something would just be some nice flavour and something your opponent would have to consider. Feeding them a cheap screen might not be so sensible if it sent them into uber mode afterwards.

How about giving them a 5+++ if they wipe a unit out, to represent them going into a blood frenzy?

torblind wrote:
Slayer-Fan123: You're a grown man, you know better than to do a personal feud on an online forum. It's the internet for god's sake. Settle that gak in private with the dude.

Jancoran: You sure are full of yourself.

This is a tactics forum. Having spent the better part of the last two pages talking about yourself, what you are and what you are not, how about you talk about how to deploy Flayed Ones in the right order, and in what way, to make the best of them. It'd be genuinely interesting to discuss. Just rise above the smear, there are people up here that act normal if you just give them a chance.

He comes in and tells us we are using Flayed Ones wrong, and then proceeds with an essay on what to do.

Here's the kicker: we've discussed literally everything he posted and Flayed Ones don't work. He hasn't given us anything new to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also he still hasn't given any proof he defeated the "3rd greatest Marine player ever" with Grey Knights. Surely someone that famous would collaborate with his story. Instead he just posts garbage and we don't need it in the thread.

Groan. Been trying deathmarks just for fun as a) I like the models b) I like the paintwork c) the tournaments and games I play are not hard core to the teeth cut throat events so not everything has to be super competive.

And even then they just flat out SUCKS. Damage output is soooooo weak. Well today they got little bit use though not sure how useful that was in practice but was able to at least wall away lychguard getting threatetened by grandmaster if he tries. Thing is not sure he would have done that either...

Damn it's been depressing run with them. With primaris marines around even basic marines are basically invulnerable to these guys. Especially if they go to terrain.

Best use has been bullet magnets as opponents have been spending silly amount of guns at them

Only thing you can do is run Mephrit for a little extra AP on the Guns. That's about it.

Yeah. And I have had too much good success with Nephrek to give up on that one so :-/ (btw I like nephrek. One local necron player claimed it's the most competive dynasty and while I have seen sautekh mostly certainly giving good fight for 2nd best. That auto 6" has been sooooooo nice to have and stratagem comes in handy when facing somebody going first with plenty of indirect guns to blow up destroyers).

Really depressing how bad they are even at casual enviroment. Knew they were bad but figured maybe they aren't that bad. Baaaaaah! Even lychguard and annihilatorbarge has proven to have SOME utility in this casual enviroment but deathmarks are depressingly bad.

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. And I have had too much good success with Nephrek to give up on that one so :-/ (btw I like nephrek. One local necron player claimed it's the most competive dynasty and while I have seen sautekh mostly certainly giving good fight for 2nd best. That auto 6" has been sooooooo nice to have and stratagem comes in handy when facing somebody going first with plenty of indirect guns to blow up destroyers).

Really depressing how bad they are even at casual enviroment. Knew they were bad but figured maybe they aren't that bad. Baaaaaah! Even lychguard and annihilatorbarge has proven to have SOME utility in this casual enviroment but deathmarks are depressingly bad.

I've done a Mephrit Vanguard with Overlord + Veil, 20 Warriors, and 3 ×10 Deathmarks. It was pretty meh.

I used mine 10 mephrit deathmarks with talent for annihilation to try to kill a Tau cadre fireblade. They failed.
It was unlucky but still ...

Can always just reduce your CP pool and take an Aux Detachment. You then can run what ever main Detachment you like and still have a Mephrit Deathmark team.
I am doing the Novakh Wraith team like that will good success.

 Red Corsair wrote:
You really do love the smell of your own farts don't you? you have yourself convinced that if others would only humor you and take a whiff they might too. Only problem is... they are farts, and nobody likes the smell of those.

I have never seen someone this belligerently move a conversations focus on a whim to where ever they feel like. You have no point mate, your just trying to be confrontational while being vague.

I literally stated the importance of everyone being on the same page, and you decided to tilt on me like I was one of your windmills. I already made the mistake of playing your game a little, I won't be wasting my energy any more though by taking your bate and fencing with you aimlessly as you move goal posts

Have fun crushing folks with your flayed ones

Have a good one, but if your really fired up I think there's a windmill in the sisters thread if your interested in spinning your wheels more, but I'm adding you to my ignore list.

Word soup.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

torblind wrote:
Slayer-Fan123: You're a grown man, you know better than to do a personal feud on an online forum. It's the internet for god's sake. Settle that gak in private with the dude.

Jancoran: You sure are full of yourself.

This is a tactics forum. Having spent the better part of the last two pages talking about yourself, what you are and what you are not, how about you talk about how to deploy Flayed Ones in the right order, and in what way, to make the best of them. It'd be genuinely interesting to discuss. Just rise above the smear, there are people up here that act normal if you just give them a chance.

He comes in and tells us we are using Flayed Ones wrong, and then proceeds with an essay on what to do.

Here's the kicker: we've discussed literally everything he posted and Flayed Ones don't work. He hasn't given us anything new to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also he still hasn't given any proof he defeated the "3rd greatest Marine player ever" with Grey Knights. Surely someone that famous would collaborate with his story. Instead he just posts garbage and we don't need it in the thread.

Wait. I answered the question PUT TO ME. In detail. Because it was DEMANDED... and you complain.

I told you what my meta is like... BECAUSE... it was demanded by the same attitude. You complain.

I have boat loads of batreps. But you know that. Ive posted them. You've commented. Attached is the game against Jason Rider I mentioned at TSHFT for example. We drove to the event TOGETHER, since you mention him. Maybe take a look at the other table numbers. Look who you see...Since that game Ive ganked his IG (with Tau) and his Iron Hands (with Grey Knights)

You're entirely unreasonable. You demand answers and then complain that you got them. It's absurd.

When someone is THIS unreasoning, there's no meeting their demands.

You can do up to 50 wounds with Flayed Ones against T4... and you act like that's nothing. Well... Okay then. 340 points isnt cheap so you better have a plan since you can get 7wraiths for that which get 21 ATTACKS. If that's really what you want? Honestly, its just math. If you get there... assuming full str in all cases... are you going to like 21 attacks... or 50 WOUNDS? Mmmm.

It's why I like them better. They require more planning but I mean... It's not like I was doing anything else with my time at the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:


Really depressing how bad they are even at casual enviroment. Knew they were bad but figured maybe they aren't that bad. Baaaaaah! Even lychguard and annihilatorbarge has proven to have SOME utility in this casual enviroment but deathmarks are depressingly bad.

They arent great, but they are pretty cool at blotting out combos. And enemy combo drops. They drop in custodes, and before the character can show up next to them, deathmarks cut them off. Thats kind of fun. As you say, they are tough to take because of their cost, but force multipliers in enemy armies are just too good to leave unmolested. The utility of snipers is only acheivable otherwise by planes (maybe) and psyker powers you dont have. So... tough decision to field them, for sure.

 Draco765 wrote:
Can always just reduce your CP pool and take an Aux Detachment. You then can run what ever main Detachment you like and still have a Mephrit Deathmark team.
I am doing the Novakh Wraith team like that will good success.

Of course then you don't have the extra AP so kind of defeats the purpose Of course stratagem would be usable but is that stratagem REALLY worth the CP...

 Jancoran wrote:
You can do up to 50 wounds with Flayed Ones against T4... and you act like that's nothing. Well... Okay then. 340 points isnt cheap so you better have a plan since you can get 7wraiths for that which get 21 ATTACKS. If that's really what you want? Honestly, its just math. If you get there... assuming full str in all cases... are you going to like 21 attacks... or 50 WOUNDS? Mmmm.

You clearly don't understand math if you think potential damage means anything, my 10 Immortals can do 60 WOUNDS! Immortals can do everything Flayed Ones can, except they don't need to charge and can do stuff as range as well as charging and tying things up.

10 Immortals fire 20 shots, get 30 hits with MWBD at S5, another 8 S4 hits in melee. 28 wounds.

9 Flayed Ones make 27 attacks, 18 hits, 14 wounds.

20 Flayed Ones make 60 attacks, 40 hits, 30 wounds. Great, well done, you've managed to get just over the damage my Immortals do by paying just over double the pts. Wait, no, that's garbage. You might be more of a chef than a food scientist, you can make things work on the table but your knowledge of the math is clearly lacking if you think Flayed Ones are theoretically anything but garbo.

On average you need to kill 14/20 Flayed Ones and the rest of them flee, kill 8 Immortals and the rest of them flee. 14*2=28, 8*3=24. So against AP-0 there is almost no difference in durability despite you paying double. You can spend another 2 CP on top of having less CP in your list because you are spending pts on elites instead of troops and you'll be running out of CP very quick, of course, you might not care because your Flayed Ones can't even fight twice because they are in Sautekh. Using a Night Scythe is silly when you can Veil of Darkness Zahndrekh right into your opponent's face with much less risk. Drukhari/GSC will pay 4/3 CP to instantly destroy Zahndrekh after popping the Night Scythe, Obyron should have told him not to use such a dangerous mode of transport. Now Obyron is just a souped-up Lord.

I've had my first test with your ObyZahn FO list and it went expectedly horribly against a competitive Triptide list, I played it badly and my opponent failed to make any mistakes for me to exploit. I don't think I have any weaker lists, maybe one or two of my double Monolith lists have been worse, but I'll give it another couple of tries and see if I can make it work. I'm still leaning towards black magic or AI making the list work for you. My table had no ruins on one side of the table and I chose to deploy my army on the side with a lot of ruins so I didn't get shot T1 with my opponent going first, normally this set-up would be an easy victory with my opponent doing nothing T1 and all his drones being out in the open. I moved my Night Scythe up and it got destroyed T2 along with my TBs, Zahndrekh could either play safe or play aggressive, played him aggressive used 2 CP to try and get him back to life at the end of the phase, he stayed dead. I failed my 9" charge with the Flayed Ones but still nearly died from Overwatch. I had killed less than 200 pts, but I did misuse my Scarabs, I should have been far more aggressive with them. Instead, they took and objective and tried outflanking my opponent, no time for such shananigans when the list is such a massive glass hammer.

Yeah how do you get 50 wounds against T4?

At best I have an expected 43 wounds against 6+, if I give them +1 to hit and hit reroll and exploding 6s with novokh. Arguably that makes 50 not unlikely, but its still off.

And at that point you need to suicide-VoD them in with your Novokh warlord, and make the 8" charge.

But on their own, dropping in from the skies? it's half that, at 25 dead orks. 33 if Novokh.

torblind wrote:
Yeah how do you get 50 wounds against T4?

At best I have an expected 43 wounds against 6+, if I give them +1 to hit and hit reroll and exploding 6s with novokh. Arguably that makes 50 not unlikely, but its still off.

And at that point you need to suicide-VoD them in with your Novokh warlord, and make the 8" charge.

But on their own, dropping in from the skies? it's half that, at 25 dead orks. 33 if Novokh.

Well 20 guys attack 60 times so that's potential 60 wounds.

Of course if you are silly enough to use maximum potential then same point of immortals can cause 132 wounds. From 24" distance. Take that flayed ones! And if you take potential as measure of good grots are pretty much ultimate killer point for point. 3 pts per damage caused! Yey! Awesome!

tneva82 wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:
Can always just reduce your CP pool and take an Aux Detachment. You then can run what ever main Detachment you like and still have a Mephrit Deathmark team.
I am doing the Novakh Wraith team like that will good success.

Of course then you don't have the extra AP so kind of defeats the purpose Of course stratagem would be usable but is that stratagem REALLY worth the CP...

The Auxiliary Detachment still gets to use the Dynasty Code you give the unit, so Mephrit still has the -1AP at half range. Novokh gets the Reroll misses on first round of melee, etc.

It is the Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment, to get that single LOW, that does not gain codes.

Speaking of Flayed Ones and melee potential, is there any place for Kutlakh in the current meta? Maybe not from a competitive scene but even casually assuming GW doesn't touch his massive 200pt price tag, what's the best way to get any mileage out of him?

The only thing that comes to mind is maybe 20 - 40 footslogging FO with Kutlakh and a Chronotek using the Nephrekh trait. Essentially a very poor man's Kraken Genestealers but what do you guys think or have at least experienced?

Isn't kutlak dynasty locked to maynark so nephret fo wouldn't get his aura?

tneva82 wrote:
Isn't kutlak dynasty locked to maynark so nephret fo wouldn't get his aura?

The FO can be Maynarkh as well. Until FW issue a dynastic code for Maynarkh itself according to the Necron Codex you can still use the 5 listed as a proxy.

The crucial thing is the fact the word MAYNARKH is printed on the datasheet, meaning that although you can take Kutlakh and some Maynarkh FO and use Nephrekhs trait you won't be able to use the Nephrekh stratagem and warlord trait.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Speaking of Flayed Ones and melee potential, is there any place for Kutlakh in the current meta? Maybe not from a competitive scene but even casually assuming GW doesn't touch his massive 200pt price tag, what's the best way to get any mileage out of him?

The only thing that comes to mind is maybe 20 - 40 footslogging FO with Kutlakh and a Chronotek using the Nephrekh trait. Essentially a very poor man's Kraken Genestealers but what do you guys think or have at least experienced?

Some people have made Lychguard spam work with him, like going 4/1 at tournament type of stuff and one guy did win a tournament with Kutlakh, I thought he was terrible but he's probably at least as good as any other way of running Lychguard. Flayed Ones are stronger against less heavily armoured units with higher quality attacks, which is basically just Drukhari, Harlequins and some Nid/GSC units. I would recommend you run Flayed Ones as Novokh in DS or not at all. Either 5 for small missions or 20 to maximize benefit from fighting twice and to extend Aura ranges. The meta isn't going to be kind to your Flayed Ones, warscythes and dispersion shields are both good options against SM because they pack the AP for dealing with 2+ or 3+ and warscythes have more than D1 which is great for killing Primaris/Aggressors/Centurions, the 4++ is good for withstanding many of the high-AP heavy weapons that most Marines have in some capacity for that T1 Devastator Doctrine.

tneva82 wrote:
Isn't kutlak dynasty locked to maynark so nephret fo wouldn't get his aura?

When you play Maynarkh you get to pick a Dynasty Code to benefit from, so no Dynasty WL trait or Strat, but you still get a Code of your choice.

GW removed this option from some of the FW AM but that's because they kind of sort of had something similar before codex AM, it still made those FW AM Regiments utter trash though. The same could happen to Maynarkh but I really doubt it since as I said Maynarkh have exactly 0 such abilities.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
You can do up to 50 wounds with Flayed Ones against T4... and you act like that's nothing. Well... Okay then. 340 points isnt cheap so you better have a plan since you can get 7wraiths for that which get 21 ATTACKS. If that's really what you want? Honestly, its just math. If you get there... assuming full str in all cases... are you going to like 21 attacks... or 50 WOUNDS? Mmmm.

You clearly don't understand math if you think potential damage means anything, my 10 Immortals can do 60 WOUNDS! Immortals can do everything Flayed Ones can, except they don't need to charge and can do stuff as range as well as charging and tying things up.

10 Immortals fire 20 shots, get 30 hits with MWBD at S5, another 8 S4 hits in melee. 28 wounds.

9 Flayed Ones make 27 attacks, 18 hits, 14 wounds.

20 Flayed Ones make 60 attacks, 40 hits, 30 wounds. Great, well done, you've managed to get just over the damage my Immortals do by paying just over double the pts. Wait, no, that's garbage. You might be more of a chef than a food scientist, you can make things work on the table but your knowledge of the math is clearly lacking if you think Flayed Ones are theoretically anything but garbo.

On average you need to kill 14/20 Flayed Ones and the rest of them flee, kill 8 Immortals and the rest of them flee. 14*2=28, 8*3=24. So against AP-0 there is almost no difference in durability despite you paying double. You can spend another 2 CP on top of having less CP in your list because you are spending pts on elites instead of troops and you'll be running out of CP very quick, of course, you might not care because your Flayed Ones can't even fight twice because they are in Sautekh. Using a Night Scythe is silly when you can Veil of Darkness Zahndrekh right into your opponent's face with much less risk. Drukhari/GSC will pay 4/3 CP to instantly destroy Zahndrekh after popping the Night Scythe, Obyron should have told him not to use such a dangerous mode of transport. Now Obyron is just a souped-up Lord.

I've had my first test with your ObyZahn FO list and it went expectedly horribly against a competitive Triptide list, I played it badly and my opponent failed to make any mistakes for me to exploit. I don't think I have any weaker lists, maybe one or two of my double Monolith lists have been worse, but I'll give it another couple of tries and see if I can make it work. I'm still leaning towards black magic or AI making the list work for you. My table had no ruins on one side of the table and I chose to deploy my army on the side with a lot of ruins so I didn't get shot T1 with my opponent going first, normally this set-up would be an easy victory with my opponent doing nothing T1 and all his drones being out in the open. I moved my Night Scythe up and it got destroyed T2 along with my TBs, Zahndrekh could either play safe or play aggressive, played him aggressive used 2 CP to try and get him back to life at the end of the phase, he stayed dead. I failed my 9" charge with the Flayed Ones but still nearly died from Overwatch. I had killed less than 200 pts, but I did misuse my Scarabs, I should have been far more aggressive with them. Instead, they took and objective and tried outflanking my opponent, no time for such shananigans when the list is such a massive glass hammer.

No. They can make 80 attacks. And actually...if you got crazy lucky... 90? I didnt even count it as 90 because thats not the build IM using.

If yer hitting on 2's and you're re-rolling wounds, do that math on 80 attacks. Pretty sweet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

I've had my first test with your ObyZahn FO list and it went expectedly horribly against a competitive Triptide list, I played it badly and my opponent failed to make any mistakes for me to exploit. I don't think I have any weaker lists, maybe one or two of my double Monolith lists have been worse, but I'll give it another couple of tries and see if I can make it work. I'm still leaning towards black magic or AI making the list work for you. My table had no ruins on one side of the table and I chose to deploy my army on the side with a lot of ruins so I didn't get shot T1 with my opponent going first, normally this set-up would be an easy victory with my opponent doing nothing T1 and all his drones being out in the open. I moved my Night Scythe up and it got destroyed T2 along with my TBs, Zahndrekh could either play safe or play aggressive, played him aggressive used 2 CP to try and get him back to life at the end of the phase, he stayed dead. I failed my 9" charge with the Flayed Ones but still nearly died from Overwatch. I had killed less than 200 pts, but I did misuse my Scarabs, I should have been far more aggressive with them. Instead, they took and objective and tried outflanking my opponent, no time for such shananigans when the list is such a massive glass hammer.

My list doesnt use Oberon currently. But Sorry to hear it went poorly. Triple Tide is awesome against EVERYTHING so there's no shame in losing to that. I did tell you this wont win NOVA.

I would have gone the other way on deployment. The thing is you want to be able to move TO cover. Remember you have Prepared Positions so cover isnt REALLY an issue turn one. But being able to move into it and get obscured is. Deployemtn order obviously matters too and I made a big deal out of that in my write up. Some better balance on the table terrain might also help but I wasnt there to see that.

No shame in that loss though. Triple Tide is insane against everything.

How do you get them to 4 attacks each? Anrakyr? How do you get him nearby, lacking as he does a dynastic code?

And 80 attacks that hit on 2+ rerolling gets you 77-78 hits, that's true. Which translates to about 58 wounds against a T4 target. Which is, against PMEQs, 19.44 wounds after saves.

So, on average, your 507 point Death Blob kills one max squad of Intercessors. If they all get in range. And don't lose anyone to Overwatch. And have all their buffs up. And the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands.

 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get them to 4 attacks each? Anrakyr? How do you get him nearby, lacking as he does a dynastic code?

And 80 attacks that hit on 2+ rerolling gets you 77-78 hits, that's true. Which translates to about 58 wounds against a T4 target. Which is, against PMEQs, 19.44 wounds after saves.

So, on average, your 507 point Death Blob kills one max squad of Intercessors. If they all get in range. And don't lose anyone to Overwatch. And have all their buffs up. And the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands.

As compared to just 21 Wraith attacks. Yes. I posted my list earlier in the discussion. And yup: a ton of wounds. Plus locking more stuff up. Also important to note.

I described at great length how I do it. The Flayed Ones are 340. You'd have had characters anyways. Lets not inflate numbers here.

Intercessors are now common but certainly not the only problrm. Orks and Tau are doing extremely well. We know Aeldari have become vicious with Psychic Awakening. You'll see lots of things. But Intercessors ILLUSTRATE how important it is to make sure you have an answer and can knock a unit silly. 20 Marine wounds is no joke! Blast a few dead from a couple squads, then bring the Coup De Grace.

14 points is still way too high. 10ish is probably about right. Compare them to Ork Kommandos at 8pts per model. While the FO are more survivable, the Kommandos are more capable at doing the job and no one really considers them OP.

 Jancoran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get them to 4 attacks each? Anrakyr? How do you get him nearby, lacking as he does a dynastic code?

And 80 attacks that hit on 2+ rerolling gets you 77-78 hits, that's true. Which translates to about 58 wounds against a T4 target. Which is, against PMEQs, 19.44 wounds after saves.

So, on average, your 507 point Death Blob kills one max squad of Intercessors. If they all get in range. And don't lose anyone to Overwatch. And have all their buffs up. And the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands.

As compared to just 21 Wraith attacks. Yes. I posted my list earlier in the discussion. And yup: a ton of wounds. Plus locking more stuff up. Also important to note.

I described at great length how I do it. The Flayed Ones are 340. You'd have had characters anyways. Lets not inflate numbers here.

Intercessors are now common but certainly not the only problrm. Orks and Tau are doing extremely well. We know Aeldari have become vicious with Psychic Awakening. You'll see lots of things. But Intercessors ILLUSTRATE how important it is to make sure you have an answer and can knock a unit silly. 20 Marine wounds is no joke! Blast a few dead from a couple squads, then bring the Coup De Grace.

You didn't describe anything new we haven't discussed already, forgetting unit interactions to boot.

Also from earlier, if you were REALLY this good and friends with these top people they'd collaborate your stories you're conjuring up. Your "battle reports" are glorified essays and nothing more than that. They're not proof of anything you've done.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get them to 4 attacks each? Anrakyr? How do you get him nearby, lacking as he does a dynastic code?

And 80 attacks that hit on 2+ rerolling gets you 77-78 hits, that's true. Which translates to about 58 wounds against a T4 target. Which is, against PMEQs, 19.44 wounds after saves.

So, on average, your 507 point Death Blob kills one max squad of Intercessors. If they all get in range. And don't lose anyone to Overwatch. And have all their buffs up. And the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands.

As compared to just 21 Wraith attacks. Yes. I posted my list earlier in the discussion. And yup: a ton of wounds. Plus locking more stuff up. Also important to note.

I described at great length how I do it. The Flayed Ones are 340. You'd have had characters anyways. Lets not inflate numbers here.

Intercessors are now common but certainly not the only problrm. Orks and Tau are doing extremely well. We know Aeldari have become vicious with Psychic Awakening. You'll see lots of things. But Intercessors ILLUSTRATE how important it is to make sure you have an answer and can knock a unit silly. 20 Marine wounds is no joke! Blast a few dead from a couple squads, then bring the Coup De Grace.

You didn't describe anything new we haven't discussed already, forgetting unit interactions to boot.

Also from earlier, if you were REALLY this good and friends with these top people they'd collaborate your stories you're conjuring up. Your "battle reports" are glorified essays and nothing more than that. They're not proof of anything you've done.

Broken record. "Nothing new" isnt an argument.

Also, no one cares what you THINK is proof. I just visually illustrated it for you. They're not all friends. No, they probably dont give a crap about this silly vindetta you have. Literally no one cares. Do you understand? No one.

So drop it and if you have something interesting to say about Necrons, start doing it. Stop badgering me. Ive been more than accomodating, answered every question. Move on.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
14 points is still way too high. 10ish is probably about right. Compare them to Ork Kommandos at 8pts per model. While the FO are more survivable, the Kommandos are more capable at doing the job and no one really considers them OP.

Lots of things are "too high". Lots of things also cant do 50 wounds. Wraiths certainly cant. So on the whole, given your choices within the codex, and that is the codex we have, the unit fills the niche of damage dealing melee unit pretty well.

If you want perfect, play checkers in Heaven. That's as close as you'll find. Down here, we have Flayed Ones or Wraiths more or less.

I mean while we're at it why not compare Lychguard?

They have all the same transport issues as Flayed Ones but can instantly kill Primaris on 2s to wound if you use the +1 strength strategem on the warscythe variant.

 Jancoran wrote:


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 Maelstrom808 wrote:
14 points is still way too high. 10ish is probably about right. Compare them to Ork Kommandos at 8pts per model. While the FO are more survivable, the Kommandos are more capable at doing the job and no one really considers them OP.

Lots of things are "too high". Lots of things also cant do 50 wounds. Wraiths certainly cant. So on the whole, given your choices within the codex, and that is the codex we have, the unit fills the niche of damage dealing melee unit pretty well.

If you want perfect, play checkers in Heaven. That's as close as you'll find. Down here, we have Flayed Ones or Wraiths more or less.

Just so I have this straight, we shouldn't try and balance their points cost because "whelp, we have what they gave us"?

I like Flayed Ones, enough that I have been hunting down the original metal models to get a couple of full squads together. They are still massively over-costed against units with comparable capability. I'm not saying use them or don't, I'm always for making lists that work for you vs what the masses say you should take.

They brought Flayed Ones to 10 points in Kill Team. No rules adjustment. And they are just OK nothing to really get excited about. So even with a 58% point drop they are still just a meh. It is the rules and stats of the unit that is lacking.

 Jancoran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get them to 4 attacks each? Anrakyr? How do you get him nearby, lacking as he does a dynastic code?

And 80 attacks that hit on 2+ rerolling gets you 77-78 hits, that's true. Which translates to about 58 wounds against a T4 target. Which is, against PMEQs, 19.44 wounds after saves.

So, on average, your 507 point Death Blob kills one max squad of Intercessors. If they all get in range. And don't lose anyone to Overwatch. And have all their buffs up. And the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands.

As compared to just 21 Wraith attacks. Yes. I posted my list earlier in the discussion. And yup: a ton of wounds. Plus locking more stuff up. Also important to note.

I described at great length how I do it. The Flayed Ones are 340. You'd have had characters anyways. Lets not inflate numbers here.

Intercessors are now common but certainly not the only problrm. Orks and Tau are doing extremely well. We know Aeldari have become vicious with Psychic Awakening. You'll see lots of things. But Intercessors ILLUSTRATE how important it is to make sure you have an answer and can knock a unit silly. 20 Marine wounds is no joke! Blast a few dead from a couple squads, then bring the Coup De Grace.

A ton of wounds? One max squad of Intercessors or two min squads (assuming everything goes right and, for the two min squads, you allocate attacks just right) for a whopping 170 points killed?

The numbers might look impressive in a vacuum, but that's... That's not very impressive when you actually look at it.

Edit: For 500 points, you get an Overlord with Warscythe, and 37 Warriors (in squads of 17 and 20). They put out...

20 BS 2+ shots
16.67 hits
8.33 wounds
4.17 failed saves

17 BS 3+ shots
11.33 hits
5.67 wounds
2.83 failed saves

7 wounds at 24". Put them in Rapid Fire four double damage-more if Mephrit. In fact, let's check the Mephrit Rapid Fire math!

56 hits
28 wounds
18.67 failed saves

So slightly cheaper amounts of Warriors do just about as much damage in a larger range band.