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Pyrothem wrote:
They brought Flayed Ones to 10 points in Kill Team. No rules adjustment. And they are just OK nothing to really get excited about. So even with a 58% point drop they are still just a meh. It is the rules and stats of the unit that is lacking.

If FO went to 10ppm I would actually start running 2* 10 man units as chaff around my (usual) Stalker, and see if we can wriggle for a Brigade at that point.

Elites have been stopping that for a very long time.... [At least in my own opinion]

We have one dude on the Flayed Ones yay team, and literally everyone else on the other side.

I think this debate has run it's course. Let's just move on.

What's on everyone's dream list for CA2019?

dapperbandit wrote:
I mean while we're at it why not compare Lychguard?

They have all the same transport issues as Flayed Ones but can instantly kill Primaris on 2s to wound if you use the +1 strength strategem on the warscythe variant.

This entire conversation was borne of the Wraithguard vs. Flayed one issue. THAT is why we aren't comparing anything else. We could. But we aren't. So I'm fine with that discussion if you want to have it. But Flayed Ones create enormous wound pools. Wraiths do not. That was the point being made here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


Just so I have this straight, we shouldn't try and balance their points cost because "whelp, we have what they gave us"?
.

Pretending I said "we shouldnt try to balance their points cost" so you can attack me for it? Mmmm... Not very cool.

No one told you you shouldn't try. You just have no power to do so. And until you do? Yeah. It's what you have. The world of "should" doesn't exist. We are here, now, and this is the situation.

There is a rumor a new Illuminor szeras model may be released. Its supposed to have a 80mm base. I dont believe that, a 80mm base is pretty big. The model itself would have to be twice as big as the current szeras.

https://youtu.be/GuMUAoQF6ZI?t=362

For 528 points, you get 11 Wraiths. Naked, but that's how they're typically best run. That gives us...

33 attacks
22 hits
14.67 wounds
9.78 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece

Or, as compared to 507 points of Flayed Ones plus Anrakyr, they're within a percent of each other. The Wraiths are SLIGHTLY more expensive, but also faster and more durable.

Except I forgot to factor in rerolls to hit, which gives us instead...

33 attacks
29.33 hits
19.56 wounds
13.04 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece

Making them significantly better than Flayed Ones at PMEQs, TEQs, and anything else multi-wound. They suffer a bit against single-wound models, dealing only about 2/3rds the damage, but with their greatly increased odds of making it, seems a worthy trade-off.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

I like Flayed Ones, enough that I have been hunting down the original metal models to get a couple of full squads together. They are still massively over-costed against units with comparable capability. I'm not saying use them or don't, I'm always for making lists that work for you vs what the masses say you should take.

You should like Flayed Ones because they are very good. Glad to hear you're looking for them.

Necrons aren't really a melee army, as if that needed to be said, but as I told one of my newer players who has learned very quickly and plays Necrons, If you have no counterpunch against, say, RavenGuard, it's going to be a very tough game for you. If you have no way to swallow up the enormous shooting that some armies can muster, you could be victimized by the huge amount of Stratategms some armies can bring to bear. If you do not have a way to board control (ergo I use THREE units to board control), then you can have some problems against some forces. There are a multiplicity of reasons to like the Flayed Ones, that go beyind its ability to do 50 wounds.

Lycheguard are usually pointed at entirely different targets than Flayed Ones. they can get to 30 attacks the same way, hitting 20 times, wounding about 13 times (kill an entire Primaris Squad also) but they aren't able to do the other things the Flayed Ones do (take on single wound targets better, more board control, locking up more units). As elite (2 wound) killers they are roughly equal to Flayed Ones and less expensive. At doing anything else the Flayed Ones are good at, they are worse. They also lose the deployment options. Now there again you can sort of General around that but it just means less options. To be fair they are tougher than Flayed Ones as well, although that difference may or may not come to matter given We'll be Back rolls. But it's true. Way tougher and that is not nothing. I'd definitely take Lycheguard for a melee element if points are just too tight to take the Flayed Ones. They are right in the same category of good to me even though they are different and more limited (essentially you have to use a Plane or Monolith to get them there in mooost cases, but you can also walk them for maxcimum buff shenanigans depending on the board you get, aggression of the foe etc...)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
For 528 points, you get 11 Wraiths. Naked, but that's how they're typically best run. That gives us...

33 attacks
22 hits
14.67 wounds
9.78 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece

Or, as compared to 507 points of Flayed Ones plus Anrakyr, they're within a percent of each other. The Wraiths are SLIGHTLY more expensive, but also faster and more durable.

Except I forgot to factor in rerolls to hit, which gives us instead...

33 attacks
29.33 hits
19.56 wounds
13.04 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece

Making them significantly better than Flayed Ones at PMEQs, TEQs, and anything else multi-wound. They suffer a bit against single-wound models, dealing only about 2/3rds the damage, but with their greatly increased odds of making it, seems a worthy trade-off.

Again... Comparing incomparable things

Flayed ones are 340. Not 507. 11 Wraiths are 528. So. Maybe you should try again.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

I like Flayed Ones, enough that I have been hunting down the original metal models to get a couple of full squads together. They are still massively over-costed against units with comparable capability. I'm not saying use them or don't, I'm always for making lists that work for you vs what the masses say you should take.

You should like Flayed Ones because they are very good. Glad to hear you're looking for them.

Necrons aren't really a melee army, as if that needed to be said, but as I told one of my newer players who has learned very quickly and plays Necrons, If you have no counterpunch against, say, RavenGuard, it's going to be a very tough game for you. If you have no way to swallow up the enormous shooting that some armies can muster, you could be victimized by the huge amount of Stratategms some armies can bring to bear. If you do not have a way to board control (ergo I use THREE units to board control), then you can have some problems against some forces. There are a multiplicity of reasons to like the Flayed Ones, that go beyind its ability to do 50 wounds.

Lycheguard are usually pointed at entirely different targets than Flayed Ones. they can get to 30 attacks the same way, hitting 20 times, wounding about 13 times (kill an entire Primaris Squad also) but they aren't able to do the other things the Flayed Ones do (take on single wound targets better, more board control, locking up more units). As elite (2 wound) killers they are roughly equal to Flayed Ones and less expensive. At doing anything else the Flayed Ones are good at, they are worse. They also lose the deployment options. Now there again you can sort of General around that but it just means less options. To be fair they are tougher than Flayed Ones as well, although that difference may or may not come to matter given We'll be Back rolls. But it's true. Way tougher and that is not nothing. I'd definitely take Lycheguard for a melee element if points are just too tight to take the Flayed Ones. They are right in the same category of good to me even though they are different and more limited (essentially you have to use a Plane or Monolith to get them there in mooost cases, but you can also walk them for maxcimum buff shenanigans depending on the board you get, aggression of the foe etc...)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
For 528 points, you get 11 Wraiths. Naked, but that's how they're typically best run. That gives us...

33 attacks
22 hits
14.67 wounds
9.78 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece

Or, as compared to 507 points of Flayed Ones plus Anrakyr, they're within a percent of each other. The Wraiths are SLIGHTLY more expensive, but also faster and more durable.

Except I forgot to factor in rerolls to hit, which gives us instead...

33 attacks
29.33 hits
19.56 wounds
13.04 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece

Making them significantly better than Flayed Ones at PMEQs, TEQs, and anything else multi-wound. They suffer a bit against single-wound models, dealing only about 2/3rds the damage, but with their greatly increased odds of making it, seems a worthy trade-off.

Again... Comparing incomparable things

Flayed ones are 340. Not 507. 11 Wraiths are 528. So. Maybe you should try again.

I think he's including the cost of Anrakyr the traveller, since your maths reiies on the extra attacks he brings.

 p5freak wrote:
There is a rumor a new Illuminor szeras model may be released. Its supposed to have a 80mm base. I dont believe that, a 80mm base is pretty big. The model itself would have to be twice as big as the current szeras.

https://youtu.be/GuMUAoQF6ZI?t=362

Odd choice for the first of our HQ's to upgrade from Finecast, but I'm down for him getting a serious buff. Guessing he'll get a hefty rules upgrade to go with it.

Anrakyr costs points.

And you want a mean comparison?

6 Wraiths is 288 points. They move 12"+1d6", then charge 2d6". Average threat range of 22.5", but can be increased with a CP reroll or two if needed. They can very possibly get a T1 charge, survive the counterpunch, and charge again T2. No outside buffing characters needed.

20 Flayed Ones is 340 points. They cannot charge T1, because they're either in Deep Strike or too slow to make it across the field. Meaning they don't do damage till T2. They also die way easier.

Wraiths have just over a 1/4 chance of making it 25" T1 with Adaptive Subroutines. Flayed Ones have a similar chance of making the charge from Deep Strike. So, if you assume they charge T2, the Wraiths can get a T1 charge. Only the Wraiths have TWO chances to CP a low roll, meaning they can have better odds.

IanVanCheese wrote:

I think he's including the cost of Anrakyr the traveller, since your maths reiies on the extra attacks he brings.
0

He's cheating. ALL units are what they are. You dont get more of them to make your comparisons. So. You compare 340 points of Flayed ones to 340 in Wraithguard. We can assume the ehnanigans are o nthem of course. But those shenanigans are not part of the unit. So lets lay off the moving goal posts here..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:




And you want a mean comparison?
.

Well...a FAIR comparison is you know...assumed to be the order of the day, friend. Lol. I already pointed out that you can get 7 or so Wraiths for the same cost. Which is fair to say.

Okay.

7 Wraiths have 21 attacks.
18.67 hits
12.44 wounds
8.30 unsaved D2 wounds against MEQs

20 Flayed Ones have 60 attacks
53.33 hits
40 wounds
13.33 unsaved D1 wounds against MEQs

They do significantly better against one-wound Marines, but suck in comparison to the more common Primaris.

 JNAProductions wrote:


6 Wraiths is 288 points. They move 12"+1d6", then charge 2d6". Average threat range of 22.5", but can be increased with a CP reroll or two if needed. They can very possibly get a T1 charge, survive the counterpunch, and charge again T2. No outside buffing characters needed.

20 Flayed Ones is 340 points. They cannot charge T1, because they're either in Deep Strike or too slow to make it across the field. Meaning they don't do damage till T2. They also die way easier.

Wraiths have just over a 1/4 chance of making it 25" T1 with Adaptive Subroutines. Flayed Ones have a similar chance of making the charge from Deep Strike. So, if you assume they charge T2, the Wraiths can get a T1 charge. Only the Wraiths have TWO chances to CP a low roll, meaning they can have better odds.

You are forgetting what I told you at the beginngin or you chose to ignore it. Let me repeat it: At their job, the Flayed Ones do it better (meaning melee wound productions.

A ALSO clearly told you that the reasons people like Wraiths are the other things they do ASIDE from killing. And you've made my point there as well.

I didn't really need the math lesson. A turn one charge is essentially almost never happening but sure. POSSIBLE. Probable? Depends on how little the enemy knows. Also depends on turn one. So... probably not an advantage I would claim here. But still cool. Yes.

Also, 7 Wraiths aren't going to kill 10 Primaris. They just aren't. Assuming they will survive to see another round is also problematic.

Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?

Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)

Edit: I suppose you could say that the opponent will just deploy far back in their DZ if you have Wraiths... Which is an advantage for you. You can claim more board control then. Whereas Flayed Ones in Deep Strike will have the opponent actively looking to claim more board control.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?

Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)

It is incorrect, as pointed out to you.

 Jancoran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?

Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)

It is incorrect.

How? How is it wrong? Show me the numbers.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?

Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)

It is incorrect.

How? How is it wrong? Show me the numbers.

You seem capable.

Your turn one charge scenario is pretty implausible. You're giving yourself 29 out of 33 hits. Not going to happen, so there's that. You will have 7, not 11 Wraiths for 340. Etc...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay.

7 Wraiths have 21 attacks.
18.67 hits
12.44 wounds
8.30 unsaved D2 wounds against MEQs

20 Flayed Ones have 60 attacks
53.33 hits
40 wounds
13.33 unsaved D1 wounds against MEQs

They do significantly better against one-wound Marines, but suck in comparison to the more common Primaris.

This is the math, under your parameters. 7 Wraiths versus 20 Flayed Ones.

29/33 hits is an 8/9 hit rate, WS 3+ with rerolls.

And why is it any more implausible than getting Flayed Ones MWBD, a successful charge, and in range of Anrakyr?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay.

7 Wraiths have 21 attacks.
18.67 hits
12.44 wounds
8.30 unsaved D2 wounds against MEQs

20 Flayed Ones have 60 attacks
53.33 hits
40 wounds
13.33 unsaved D1 wounds against MEQs

They do significantly better against one-wound Marines, but suck in comparison to the more common Primaris.

This is the math, under your parameters. 7 Wraiths versus 20 Flayed Ones.

29/33 hits is an 8/9 hit rate, WS 3+ with rerolls.

And why is it any more implausible than getting Flayed Ones MWBD, a successful charge, and in range of Anrakyr?

Well you clearly havent been paying attention to what I've been telling you. Le sigh.

Okay sir. For the one hundredth time, the Flayed Ones are actually getting 80 attacks in our example. Posted my list. Explained that. Don't know what you're missing here. You can actually get them to 90 in theory but as i said, that isnt how MY list works.

Second: you're saying they charge turn 1. Anrakyr cant grant them +1 to attacks in turn one, because they have to be within 3" when the attacks happen. He wont be if you are charging turn one. Only his My Will be Done is granted at start of turn 1.

Third: 7 Wraiths therefore get 21 attacks, hitting on 2's.

Adjust your math accordingly. After you do, get back to me. You will find that the Flayed Ones are messing those Primaris up. If you're up against far more conventional enemies, it's even better.

I don't mind having this discussion but you can't ignore your own rules here. You're positing the greatness of the turn one charge. Okay fine, we look at it. Represent it correctly. If turn 2, its even more unlikely that the Wraiths will have the support as you've made clear you're advancing turn one, so you're only hope is the Veil of Darknes to bring Anrakyr in, which is also fine but in your view, every cost of running the unit is a cost you count! So by YOUR rules that's more expense yet! I don't agree, so I'd be fine with the Veil being in the list to do just this. Only trouble is you have to trail back UP TO 6.01 inches... And that does limit your attacks potentially. We'd have to see the field to decide that but it;s got to be considered.

You've made clear the enemy doesn't foresee it, and you have made clear that the halo in front has been cleared. No problem there. Not probably. Just possible. Also you'd need two units of Wraiths to get to 7, so there are actually two charges to make. oops...

So I get the point you wish to make. Just be fair about it.


This is why I stressed in the writeup the deployment. It's important to give your forces time to clear the landing zone and control the board.

If you want to compare 7 Wraiths (336 points) to 20 Flayed Ones (340 points) why should you include Anrakyr?

I never assumed Anrakyr for the Wraiths-in fact, he can't even buff them. They're no Infantry.

They do not hit on 2s, they hit on 3+ rerolling. Novokh code, but no MWBD.

The ONLY buffs the Wraiths got are Adaptive Subroutines and potentially CP Rerolls.

Edit: 6 Wraiths are 18 attacks.
16 hits.
10.67 wounds
7.11 unsaved wounds.

They STILL outperform Flayed Ones at 85% the cost.

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you want to compare 7 Wraiths (336 points) to 20 Flayed Ones (340 points)

I didn't include him. Lol.

Then how are you getting 80 attacks on 20 3-attack models?

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you want to compare 7 Wraiths (336 points) to 20 Flayed Ones (340 points) why should you include Anrakyr?

I never assumed Anrakyr for the Wraiths-in fact, he can't even buff them. They're no Infantry.

They do not hit on 2s, they hit on 3+ rerolling. Novokh code, but no MWBD.

The ONLY buffs the Wraiths got are Adaptive Subroutines and potentially CP Rerolls.

Edit: 6 Wraiths are 18 attacks.
16 hits.
10.67 wounds
7.11 unsaved wounds.

They STILL outperform Flayed Ones at 85% the cost.

Here again, You can see that the Flayed Ones killed it. It's not complicated.

80 attacks. 67 hits. 50 wounds. 16.67 unsaved wounds. 340 points.

7 Wraiths (lets be fair and pretend they ALL make it, both charges!): 21 attacks. 17.5 hits. 11.67 wounds. 9.72 unsaved. 336 points.

Very fair comparison. You lose a TON of wounds with the Wraiths, as you can see. You don't have Re-animation without Stratagems. You don't REALLY have a reliable way to avoid damage from the shooting beforehand (as I suspect you will always be in the open for at least a round, charge or no charge). You are more affected BY damage before/after you charge because one Wraith is more than 3 times the cost of Flayed Ones and multiwound damage weapons are literally EVERYWHERE.

Dunno where you got the 85% from, but it's obviously wrong. The fun with Wraiths is that against an elite target (tanks, primaris,whatever) they gain... 2.77 TOTAL wounds! MAYBE one extra Primris? Maybe? So the Flayed Ones are better. They take down the same targets, are tied in melee afterwards and are way better at taking down other types and recovering their fighting strength. Cover more board. Deploy more ways.

16.67 vs. 9.72. It matters. Often.

How do you get 80 Attacks? Flayed Ones are 3 attacks. If you're using a Stratagem I forgot, please, remind me.

And the 85% is 6 Wraiths compared to 20 Flayed Ones.

Did you miss that Flayed Ones dropped from 4 to 3 attacks ages ago?

I enjoy reading through the different styles of CC necrons have at their disposal. But I really need to say, claiming which one is better is seriously irrelevant. There are too many conditions on what your opponent has, how they've deployed and what army they're running.

There are also the factors on what you want to achieve when getting into CC. Are you trying to kill the unit? Trap them? Limit their movement?

For my playstyle, when looking at our 3 CC units, Lychguard, Flayed Ones and Wraiths, I will opt for Wraiths when list building for tournaments.

Marines are at the top of the food chain now. So my priority and expectancy is that I will play against them. Ideally I want something small and efficient at wiping out units of 5 Primaris, or at least wrapping the remaining models. Wraiths have the great ability of falling out of combat and charging other units which I believe is something to be highly considered. This ability imo is one of the best things Wraiths have at causing a big concern for your opponent.

Currently, Marines have very effective ways of countering Deep Strike, or even just placing scouts behind ruins with more than an inch from the wall. It's a problem for any Deep Strike that has nothing to buff the charge distance. Wraiths don't care about that. They just Advance and Charge.

Point changes will change a lot of things ofcourse, but for now Wraiths are definitely my go-to unit.

 p5freak wrote:
There is a rumor a new Illuminor szeras model may be released. Its supposed to have a 80mm base. I dont believe that, a 80mm base is pretty big. The model itself would have to be twice as big as the current szeras.

https://youtu.be/GuMUAoQF6ZI?t=362

This is pretty exciting if true. It suggests (as the YouTuber mentioned) the ruleset would be updated to reflect a fairly significant HQ presence.

I’d love having 200-300 pt HQ options.

torblind wrote:
Did you miss that Flayed Ones dropped from 4 to 3 attacks ages ago?

It's still being randomly dropped as a benefit by the one person that doesn't know what they're talking about. It's also clear they don't know what they're talking about simply because of forgetting super basic interactions in the army (The Traveler can't travel) and not actually bringing in anything new for discussion we haven't gone over since we got the codex.

 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get 80 Attacks? Flayed Ones are 3 attacks. If you're using a Stratagem I forgot, please, remind me.

And the 85% is 6 Wraiths compared to 20 Flayed Ones.

Just add him to your ignore list already. The guy clearly does not want to discuss things honestly, he keeps re-framing the debate every time he is required to explain his reasoning with facts. It's like trying to get a straight answer from a politician lol.

elook wrote:
I enjoy reading through the different styles of CC necrons have at their disposal. But I really need to say, claiming which one is better is seriously irrelevant. There are too many conditions on what your opponent has, how they've deployed and what army they're running.

There are also the factors on what you want to achieve when getting into CC. Are you trying to kill the unit? Trap them? Limit their movement?

For my playstyle, when looking at our 3 CC units, Lychguard, Flayed Ones and Wraiths, I will opt for Wraiths when list building for tournaments.

For me I want cc unit that can do T1 charge(nephrek wraiths have been adept at that with max advance and charge) and then force enemy to deal with them or they will be tagging tanks etc. Wraiths have been okayish on this style. Fairly reliable T1 charge and ability to bypass screens etc makes tagging tanks easier. And they seem to attract reasonable number of firepower as long as there's no leman russ punisher type of thing out there(guess which tank I will usually try to blow up first!) to go through the 3++ by sheer numbers.

Lychguard has been 2nd choice as with WL trait and veil they can do it but they have been failing more of T1 charges and 4++ and W2 makes them less survivable. Plus eats up warlord, his trait and relic giving also often enough easy slay the warlord. Also lot less killy than the wraith.

Flayed ones fail on lack of T1 charge and lack of reliable charge before T3 after sitting out there for a turn.

Not as competive as more guns either way but sometimes I want to try change of pace when I play game that's not as competive as die hard tournaments. Been having surprising amount of success in these semi competive games.

Warco article is up : Pretorian point drop (20 with Rod and 22 with Voidblades) :
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/chapter-approved-points-updates-to-look-out-forgw-homepage-post-1/

They are very cheap now. Maybe enough to field them just for the bodies that will be tough to shift

Shaelinith wrote:
Warco article is up : Pretorian point drop (20 with Rod and 22 with Voidblades) :
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/chapter-approved-points-updates-to-look-out-forgw-homepage-post-1/

They are very cheap now. Maybe enough to field them just for the bodies that will be tough to shift

20 pts is bang on the money. certainly worth considering. Excited to see what else we get, article says "thorough revisions". Nothing will fix our issues, but some stopgaps will be appreciated even if it just adds a bit more variety in what we can bring.