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I hope GW rounds pts off on expensive models so they cost 570 instead of 567. I'm getting a lot more optimistic after learning CSM are 11 pts/model, that seems very fair with how much they are missing from SM. A roughly 20% reduction on Triarch Praetorians and a pts distinction between the clearly better and clearly worse weapon option is amazing. I don't think I'll proxy mine as void blades anymore.

I wanted nerfs, but I'm happy we're probably not getting many of those since SM are as powerful as they are. Maybe Teslamortals or Imotekh is getting nerfed, it'll be interesting to see. If the Vault gets a reduction I could see myself taking it with the 180 pt Deceiver. Wishlist below:

 Jancoran wrote:

torblind wrote:
Did you miss that Flayed Ones dropped from 4 to 3 attacks ages ago?

As explained, there's two ways to add to their attacks. Both Anrakyr (Lord of the Pyrrhian Legions) and Big Z (Transient Madness) can add to attacks. Both. I pointed out that I wasn't doing it that way but that meant up to 5 attacks a guy.

And now you're caught up, so Slayer-Fan can stop being a jerk. Or not.

That's gak, you can't count a 1/3 chance of getting +1 attack as them just having +1 attack. Didn't you also say your new list doesn't use Obyron? Do you still use Sautekh Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh?

Not to mention with transient madness the flayed ones are coming from deep strike(that or you are even worse off footslogging and being bombarded) so aren't easily in range. And in any case not on the turn they come and next round they are dead.

So sure if opponent plays like total idiot

tneva82 wrote:
Not to mention with transient madness the flayed ones are coming from deep strike(that or you are even worse off footslogging and being bombarded) so aren't easily in range. And in any case not on the turn they come and next round they are dead.

So sure if opponent plays like total idiot

I covered that in my entry. But as for HOW they got that many attacks, it isn't really a big surprise.

The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.

Those are obvious things.

Having said how obvious those things are, I have still answered the question. You ABSOLUTELY can do this, while he tries to stop you. I cannot sit here and play the stupid "well Centurions must be bad because I can wipe them out with X" game. That's just wasting everyones time.

So please don't start with the "if your opponent is an idiot" thing because by THAT measure, every "cool unit" is doomed. Lol. Someone will "see it and kill it" if you're to be believed.

The reality is that Slayer-Fan was just flat wrong. He reads the rules for drek if he thinks that there's "just no way" you can get 4 attacks on Flayed Ones. Hell, you can get 5.

And if you think that people are going to be given the fredom to ignore EVERYTHING else in favor of the Flayed Ones, you can assume that. My Destroyers and Tomb blades are fine with it. So are the fast moving Swarms. I mean... Right?

All I've done is outlinie how i do it. I outlined WHAT it CAN do. I have thrown all the necessary disclaimers on it. Necrons aren't winning the next NOVA with this or any build. That's just life.

But given that you still want to play Necrons... this is vey far from the worst you can do. Flayed Ones are really efficient at pumping out wounds. More efficient than Wraiths. I showed you that the Wraiths really only shine when facing multi-wound models, but that they also lose that ability a lot faster than Flayed Ones. It's not their fault. it's just that there is a huge multi-damage meta going on now I see it CONSTANTLY in competitvie play: Vanguard veterans, Executioner tanks, Tau Riptides, Heavy versions of weapons, stratagems that cause it, native d6 weapons have totally proliferated i nMarine lists because they should, and the list goes on.

So here again GIVEN you want a melee aspect to the list AT ALL... and we're going to assume that... Then the Flayed Ones do it well. it will be a turn 2 or even 3 play. That's okay. contracry to popular beief you dont always have to kill everything round 1 to win.Sometimes its just holding the field long enough. Thats why the board control is the focus of the list I posted.

It's not the only way to win of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

That's gak, you can't count a 1/3 chance of getting +1 attack as them just having +1 attack. Didn't you also say your new list doesn't use Obyron? Do you still use Sautekh Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh?

I don't use Obyron currently. I have though.

This discussion has vacillated between both characters that can do it, so understand that. and it isnt 1/3. You can re-roll that die. 2 of the 3 are good for the charge phase so its no lose really. The 80 was a number I pointed out because you can do it either way (and actually you can do more than 80).

Anrakyr is the most reliable way but Big Z does it also. and they could BOTH do it. For some reason, Slayer-Fan and others have forgotten that. Which is cool. While stating emphatically that it cant be done. Hilarious.

 Jancoran wrote:

The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.

So. You just have to march them for couple turns being bombarded and opponent not bother to shoot them to death. Yeah aint' happening.

Alternatively come out of deepstrike, succeed in 28% charge and NEXT turn get the +1A 33% times.

Lol. The mere fact you are relying on 33% buff tells everything people need to know. You don't rely on tactics or playing good. Just rolling good.

If you footslog opponent can easily kill those slow soft targets with spare guns. If you deep strike you can't even use that buff. Or are you cheating by using the +1A roll after deep strikers have come?

Your suggestions just plain suck and are wrong. But go ahead. Go and win tournaments with flayed ones if you are so sure. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can't do that you just prove you are all mouth and no ability to back it up

tneva82 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.

So. You just have to march them for couple turns being bombarded and opponent not bother to shoot them to death. Yeah aint' happening.

Alternatively come out of deepstrike, succeed in 28% charge and NEXT turn get the +1A 33% times.

Lol. The mere fact you are relying on 33% buff tells everything people need to know. You don't rely on tactics or playing good. Just rolling good.

If you footslog opponent can easily kill those slow soft targets with spare guns. If you deep strike you can't even use that buff. Or are you cheating by using the +1A roll after deep strikers have come?

This was about the comparisons between Wraiths and Flayed Ones. Not the enemy and what they are armed with. Lol.

This was really simple. IF you are GOING to have a melee element... the most efficient one IS the Flayed Ones. If you are. That was THE point. All this other stuff is window dressing, man.

What happens or doesnt happen in your pretend game is all good and well. I explained HOW to use them. I explained when you'd DS, when you wouldn't. I've answered all I can without a board in front of us.

Making this about anything beyond the comparison between Wraiths and Flayed Ones, which is the central point of the whole discussion isn't on me. No one is "relying" on anything. I'm telling you how to do it. Anrakyr is a more sure method so use him if you want to it makes no difference to me. My point was really simple: The Flayed Ones can do amazing damage and provide amaxing board control in comparison to any other tool you have (points changes are coming and will perhaps change that but we'll see)

Beyond that you can tell me how great Marines are all day. I'll agree with you AND EVERYTHING! But it doesnt change that the Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths. And if you don't prefer them, cool. I never claimed to have the monopoly on how to win. I just told you how to do it. You act like i kicked your puppy or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

...But go ahead. Go and win tournaments with flayed ones if you are so sure. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can't do that you just prove you are all mouth and no ability to back it up

I think i told you pretty plainly that I won't be taking them to tournaments. What would be the point? i think we already covered the whole "not winning big events any time soon with Necrons". Cant seem to say that enough times. Maybe listen this time. This time.

Which is better voidblade and particle casters at 22 or rod of the covenant at 20? I'm leaning toward the rod because if I get in at all it's a success, mostly I'm assuming my Triarch Praetorians get destroyed with shooting.

 Jancoran wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Not to mention with transient madness the flayed ones are coming from deep strike(that or you are even worse off footslogging and being bombarded) so aren't easily in range. And in any case not on the turn they come and next round they are dead.

So sure if opponent plays like total idiot

I covered that in my entry. But as for HOW they got that many attacks, it isn't really a big surprise.

The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.

Those are obvious things.

Having said how obvious those things are, I have still answered the question. You ABSOLUTELY can do this, while he tries to stop you. I cannot sit here and play the stupid "well Centurions must be bad because I can wipe them out with X" game. That's just wasting everyones time.

So please don't start with the "if your opponent is an idiot" thing because by THAT measure, every "cool unit" is doomed. Lol. Someone will "see it and kill it" if you're to be believed.

The reality is that Slayer-Fan was just flat wrong. He reads the rules for drek if he thinks that there's "just no way" you can get 4 attacks on Flayed Ones. Hell, you can get 5.

And if you think that people are going to be given the fredom to ignore EVERYTHING else in favor of the Flayed Ones, you can assume that. My Destroyers and Tomb blades are fine with it. So are the fast moving Swarms. I mean... Right?

All I've done is outlinie how i do it. I outlined WHAT it CAN do. I have thrown all the necessary disclaimers on it. Necrons aren't winning the next NOVA with this or any build. That's just life.

But given that you still want to play Necrons... this is vey far from the worst you can do. Flayed Ones are really efficient at pumping out wounds. More efficient than Wraiths. I showed you that the Wraiths really only shine when facing multi-wound models, but that they also lose that ability a lot faster than Flayed Ones. It's not their fault. it's just that there is a huge multi-damage meta going on now I see it CONSTANTLY in competitvie play: Vanguard veterans, Executioner tanks, Tau Riptides, Heavy versions of weapons, stratagems that cause it, native d6 weapons have totally proliferated i nMarine lists because they should, and the list goes on.

So here again GIVEN you want a melee aspect to the list AT ALL... and we're going to assume that... Then the Flayed Ones do it well. it will be a turn 2 or even 3 play. That's okay. contracry to popular beief you dont always have to kill everything round 1 to win.Sometimes its just holding the field long enough. Thats why the board control is the focus of the list I posted.

It's not the only way to win of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

That's gak, you can't count a 1/3 chance of getting +1 attack as them just having +1 attack. Didn't you also say your new list doesn't use Obyron? Do you still use Sautekh Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh?

I don't use Obyron currently. I have though.

This discussion has vacillated between both characters that can do it, so understand that. and it isnt 1/3. You can re-roll that die. 2 of the 3 are good for the charge phase so its no lose really. The 80 was a number I pointed out because you can do it either way (and actually you can do more than 80).

Anrakyr is the most reliable way but Big Z does it also. and they could BOTH do it. For some reason, Slayer-Fan and others have forgotten that. Which is cool. While stating emphatically that it cant be done. Hilarious.

You keep on claiming that Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths and that they are a competitive option relative to our other melee units, saying that FOs aren't going to win any GTs is the understatement of the year, you can say the same thing about units that are a lot more pts efficient than FOs. What we're arguing is whether they are A, B, C or D tier, so which is it? I'd say C tier, firmly uncompetitive but not absolute trash.

It takes 17 lascannon hits or to destroy 20 Flayed Ones (the wonders of Morale).

It takes 33 lascannon hits to destroy 6 Wraiths. Now factor in cost and lascannons are twice as efficient against FOs than Wraiths.

If you stop adding attacks for free then it takes 108 pts of Flayed Ones to kill an Infantry Squad and 255 pts to kill 5 Intercessors.

It takes 288 pts and 120 pts to kill an Infantry Squad and 5 Intercessors respectively for Wraiths.
Edit: not 120 pts, 270 pts.

Flayed Ones have nothing going for them that Warriors don't, Wraiths have speed and they can fall back and charge. Flayed Ones have one ok niche Stratagem against T8, Wraiths have one great Stratagem and another good one assuming you have a Cryptek. Walking Flayed Ones across the board with Zahndrekh is silly when you can take them as Novokh and get the same benefit as +1 Atk from the Code when you get nothing from the Sautekh code, in addition, you get a super strong Stratagem.

Saying that it's equally hard to get any unit into combat or saying that Wraiths don't have a meaningful advantage in this regard is silly. I have had success with running Warriors or Immortals into my opponent's lines and just being a bother, but why would I want Flayed Ones? Wraiths perform a radically different role which might make them worth taking, taking Flayed Ones is just for laughs and entirely uncompetitive.

 vict0988 wrote:


You keep on claiming that Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths and that they are a competitive option relative to our other melee units, saying that FOs aren't going to win any GTs is the understatement of the year, you can say the same thing about units that are a lot more pts efficient than FOs. What we're arguing is whether they are A, B, C or D tier, so which is it? I'd say C tier, firmly uncompetitive but not absolute trash. .

It isnt about tiers. Its about the options you DO have. Bemoaning that someone has a better one is incredibly pointless and adds nothing to the discussion. We are assuming you want a melee element. Cant do anything about the enemy, that's going to be what it is. Can only deal with ours and in ours, we have for whatever reason decided to include a melee element, Tier Z or Tier A, who cares. We're doing it.

I'm going to ignore the rest because saying that stuff is like saying Warriors are great without character support. Lol. When you started talking about morale as a way to defend your position, ESPECIALLY because we are talking Wraiths getting their full attacks and Flayed Ones not? Umm... Are you even trying to be fair minded? If it comes to it, you spend the CP like everyone else does. if it wanst them it would have been another unit.

So look. IF the Wraiths get their attacks off, they do so in all likelihood turn two. More likely than not right? With an "intelligent opponent" assumed here, and no one WALKING into anyone's probable charges and blah blah blah...

Same for Flayed Ones, since we're giving everyone benefit of the doubt.

I did the math (see above). 7 Wraiths are inferior unless its a multiwound model and then it depends on how many wounds (2 is optimal, 3 puts the Wraiths right back into 2nd place, 1 also does). So they are EXACTLY better at killing 2-wound models by mere...assuming all goes WELL for them... 2.77 wounds. That's it! ONLY those!

Flayed Ones, optimally again, do better against all other targets and do GREAT against the same targets. I mean weird right? only 4 points separate the 7 wraiths from the 20 Flayed Ones. Effectively zero difference. same number of wounds basically but one has 3++, the other regenerates. One is susceptible to multi-wound weapons, one isn't but loses more attacks (but then they can afford to lose more). Law of large numbers favors the Flayed Ones also making it more likely to reach average performance. MUCH less swingy than the Wraiths. And the see-saw goes back and forth.

And I said earlier that the reason people like Wraiths has much less to do with killing power. And that's true! its those "other things" that make Wraiths good, but arguing that they kill better for the points... I mean... It's mathematically only true in one scenario, and only minimally... So... I dont know how you can say otherwise. Tiers dont even enter into this. this was about Wraiths vs. Flayed Ones on best possible terms for them both.

It’s great that Flayed Ones have now received nearly 5 pages of in depth tactical analysis. I think enough information has been parsed such that absent any changes to the Codex entry, there likely isn’t anything left unsaid by this point. May I politely recommend we move on?

Given Deceiver is already frequently played, do the point changes affect decision calculus for him? It strikes me that it doesn’t make any strategy using him any more or less playable, it merely allows additional units at the circumference of the list to be expanded. Agree/disagree?

 Jancoran wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:


You keep on claiming that Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths and that they are a competitive option relative to our other melee units, saying that FOs aren't going to win any GTs is the understatement of the year, you can say the same thing about units that are a lot more pts efficient than FOs. What we're arguing is whether they are A, B, C or D tier, so which is it? I'd say C tier, firmly uncompetitive but not absolute trash. .

It isnt about tiers. Its about the options you DO have. Bemoaning that someone has a better one is incredibly pointless and adds nothing to the discussion. We are assuming you want a melee element. Cant do anything about the enemy, that's going to be what it is. Can only deal with ours and in ours, we have for whatever reason decided to include a melee element, Tier Z or Tier A, who cares. We're doing it.

I'm going to ignore the rest because saying that stuff is like saying Warriors are great without character support. Lol. When you started talking about morale as a way to defend your position, ESPECIALLY because we are talking Wraiths getting their full attacks and Flayed Ones not? Umm... Are you even trying to be fair minded? If it comes to it, you spend the CP like everyone else does. if it wanst them it would have been another unit.

So look. IF the Wraiths get their attacks off, they do so in all likelihood turn two. More likely than not right? With an "intelligent opponent" assumed here, and no one WALKING into anyone's probable charges and blah blah blah...

Same for Flayed Ones, since we're giving everyone benefit of the doubt.

I did the math (see above). 7 Wraiths are inferior unless its a multiwound model and then it depends on how many wounds (2 is optimal, 3 puts the Wraiths right back into 2nd place, 1 also does). So they are EXACTLY better at killing 2-wound models by mere...assuming all goes WELL for them... 2.77 wounds. That's it! ONLY those!

Flayed Ones, optimally again, do better against all other targets and do GREAT against the same targets. I mean weird right? only 4 points separate the 7 wraiths from the 20 Flayed Ones. Effectively zero difference. same number of wounds basically but one has 3++, the other regenerates. One is susceptible to multi-wound weapons, one isn't but loses more attacks (but then they can afford to lose more). Law of large numbers favors the Flayed Ones also making it more likely to reach average performance. MUCH less swingy than the Wraiths. And the see-saw goes back and forth.

And I said earlier that the reason people like Wraiths has much less to do with killing power. And that's true! its those "other things" that make Wraiths good, but arguing that they kill better for the points... I mean... It's mathematically only true in one scenario, and only minimally... So... I dont know how you can say otherwise. Tiers dont even enter into this. this was about Wraiths vs. Flayed Ones on best possible terms for them both.

How is it not about tiers, you are claiming that Flayed Ones are good, so what tier are they in? Are they very good, decent, bad or horrible? How about Wraiths, are they very good, decent, bad or horrible? A, B, C or D?

Flayed Ones have M5, they advance 3,5", charge 7". T2 you have moved 13,5" and can charge 2d6, how are they getting into melee T2? You are assuming that your opponent walks any amount forwards without also killing the Flayed Ones, this is less realistic than a T1 Wraith charge. If you walk them across the board I'd say T3 at the earliest and T4 is not unlikely against some armies.

I'm assuming both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the full amount of attacks, I'm assuming that your glass cannon unit suffers no casualties and my semi-tank unit suffers no damage.This is unrealistic and in favour of Flayed Ones, but let's say your opponent isn't aware that Flayed Ones run away when they lose 14 of their friends and chooses not to shoot lascannons at Flayed Ones, despite it being relatively efficient.

My math on Intercessors was off, sorry about that. Regeneration is pie in the sky, they are too easy to kill and too pricy to factor that in, ignoring morale when it's a huge factor is silly. It's like assuming a Monolith heals 5 times in a game, it's not realistic that you get a single Flayed One back, either your opponent walks calmy away from you or kills them. The threat they pose is not so large that it's worth investing in them. It's not about the best possible terms, it's about a realistic engagement. One where your opponent kills 5-7 Flayed Ones each turn is not realistic. I'm fine with saying that you outplay your opponents using a C-tier unit, but saying that its a good unit is false. Why have so few people replicated your success with the unit? Why have so many people replicated my success with Doomsday Arks and Immortals? The latter two units are pts efficient to a larger degree than Flayed Ones. If you are saying you are just taking Flayed Ones just because you want a melee unit for fun and you somehow still manage to win against great players then I'm fine with that, but that's not what you've been saying. Maybe you think Wraiths are overrated, maybe you think all Necron melee units are C-tier, I'm fine with that as well, nullzone is a threat for Wraiths and Repulsor Executioners are glasscannons that need shattering lest they shatter your army so spending 600+ pts on melee might just be pretty bad in the current meta. So are we back to saying Flayed Ones are pretty bad, not horrible but far from pts efficient and far weaker than our most pts efficient units?

 vict0988 wrote:


How is it not about tiers, you are claiming that Flayed Ones are good, so what tier are they in?

The question is a red herring. Tiers just have no bearing here. They are just... better at the job. I don't place them as an apex predator among the various armies. But when you're pplaying Necrons you're NOT playing those other armies. So there's no point to comparing them to OTHER armies. If you straight up want a whole bunch of models dead (16+ T4 Marines to be exact) while taking up space while wrapping up the next unit for a price that is totally acceptable give the impact that would have, then yahoo. You got your guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

Flayed Ones have M5, they advance 3,5", charge 7". T2 you have moved 13,5" and can charge 2d6, how are they getting into melee T2? You are assuming that your opponent walks any amount forwards without also killing the Flayed Ones, this is less realistic than a T1 Wraith charge. If you walk them across the board I'd say T3 at the earliest and T4 is not unlikely against some armies.

You don't NECESSARILY need to go to the enemy with Flayed Ones, or really any melee unit. Objectives force the action. The LOS blocker forces it also. I have told you this can be a turn 3 gambit.

If you face an assault heavy force, then getting there will be easy. They'll do the work for you. If its a balanced force like mine is, then you will clear the landing zone and Drop them. If its a Gunline you will play the shadow and clear one OR th other side as thoroughly aspossible andwhe nthe Scarabs arrive that will likely be when you have your opening. I have no crystal ball. I can only speak in generalities here.

And SOMETIMES very last one of the bastards will die. Just like all units the enemy DECIDES they want dead and that you put in a position to oblige them. Am I right?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

I'm assuming both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the full amount of attacks, I'm assuming that your glass cannon unit suffers no casualties and my semi-tank unit suffers no damage.This is unrealistic and in favour of Flayed Ones, but let's say your opponent isn't aware that Flayed Ones run away when they lose 14 of their friends and chooses not to shoot lascannons at Flayed Ones, despite it being relatively efficient.

I mean...you can SAY I wont use CP to ignore morale... But as for comparisons, We cannot possibly know what the dice will do to us on the approach. We just cant. So.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

My math on Intercessors was off, sorry about that.

Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

Regeneration is pie in the sky,

Its literally the main schtick of the army. Lol.

sieGermans wrote:
It’s great that Flayed Ones have now received nearly 5 pages of in depth tactical analysis. I think enough information has been parsed such that absent any changes to the Codex entry, there likely isn’t anything left unsaid by this point. May I politely recommend we move on?

Given Deceiver is already frequently played, do the point changes affect decision calculus for him? It strikes me that it doesn’t make any strategy using him any more or less playable, it merely allows additional units at the circumference of the list to be expanded. Agree/disagree?

I for one, welcome this.

I love bringing him to casual games for the occasional turn 1 all out attack. But I sometimes struggle to put him to good use afterwards. A lower points investment will soften that.

As always, the challenge is to make his points worthwhile when you go second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, and enough about Flayed Ones. Take them for spins and show and tell already.

 vict0988 wrote:

I'm fine with saying that you outplay your opponents using a C-tier unit, but saying that its a good unit is false.

Outplaying people is a thing you can do. For sure. However i think I made a big deal out of pointing outthat nothing Ive ver done on any battlefeield has been special or beyond anyone elses capacity. Lol. I'm just not that special. And if I TELL you how to do it flat out...and Ive tried... Then you now know as well. Giving it some magical hard to reach quality in order to suggest that math hassuddenly changed its very nature is sort of...I mean...self serving here. The math says the Wraith excel against just one target type. Okay. So they do. A little. Not enough to make giving up the alternative!

Please, for the love of God, stop responding to Jancoran. He/she is clearly not going to change his/her mind, and the rest of you can be happy in the knowledge that clearly no one agrees with his/her assessment of flayed Ones. Now let's everyone move on.

 vict0988 wrote:

Why have so few people replicated your success with the unit?

Lack of effort.

I'll be honest, I know about a billion gamers, and I know of VERY few who ever picked up the Flayed Ones and put them on tables when they used to be god awful. I mean GOD AWFUL. There was a time when they were. a long time. And people dont break their patterns very gladly.

So when they got better, people just didnt want to pay the money. THEY HAD "DECIDED", and as you'll know from being human for a short bit, people do this all the time. It really is that simple sometimes. Some of you have spuses who are proof. Some were luckier I guess.

The other reason which you probably know intuitively is that many people have FAR less time than I do to game. and less money. So when you combine those two things it becomes a practical matter. If the internet is saying Wraiths, and has been for a long time (and it has) then you stop questioning and start rationalizing why its probably true. You see the positives. You go out of your way to be part of the crowd in loving them and hey...those damn models are sexy as hell. It matters. Flayed Ones really arnet and this is a hobby after all...

Theres all kinds of wierd human reasons why people just don't TRY things or they dont try them for long. Limited time means you fall prey to the Low-hanging-fruit syndrome. "hell no Im not gonna' wate my time with those when I can just go trips Doomsday Ark and call it a day". If its just EASIER to play with and includes a lot less thinking or a lot less variables... It's just...easier. Not better NECESSARILY. Just easier. Lower hanging fruit just takes less effort to pick. The less niche the better for some.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrPieChee wrote:
Please, for the love of God, stop responding to Jancoran. He/she is clearly not going to change his/her mind, and the rest of you can be happy in the knowledge that clearly no one agrees with his/her assessment of flayed Ones. Now let's everyone move on.

Saying I'm wrong isnt a compelling argument.

This is a forum. Scroll past if it no longer interests you. Don't be rude. I'm just answering the questions furiously put to me.

sieGermans wrote:
It’s great that Flayed Ones have now received nearly 5 pages of in depth tactical analysis. I think enough information has been parsed such that absent any changes to the Codex entry, there likely isn’t anything left unsaid by this point. May I politely recommend we move on?

Given Deceiver is already frequently played, do the point changes affect decision calculus for him? It strikes me that it doesn’t make any strategy using him any more or less playable, it merely allows additional units at the circumference of the list to be expanded. Agree/disagree?

Nope sorry, I think it's relevant to the thread and I'd like to continue, feel free to block me and Jancoran though. I also tried to start a discussion on rods vs voidblades to make the thread about other things as well, part of what has been clogging up the thread is people not believing Jancoran's statements of fact like who he has played against, in such situations I'd just mute him and move on. The discussion of Flayed Ones is ten times more valuable than most other discussions we've had in the last 50 pages.

Pts cost changes things, he's probably going to be quite good in a lot of lists with triple DDA, Immortals/TBs, etc. etc. I think the question is whether using the Deceiver to move Warriors, Ghost Arks, C'tan (big and small) up the field is going to depend whether they get pts reductions, as is I don't think any of the units I mentioned stand a chance against Nu-Marines just because a support unit becomes more pts efficient. I'll be experimenting with him and Zahndrekh, I think it'll be pretty cool. I think there was a guy that recently topped a tournament using Deceiver and triple DDA so that'll get better if DDAs don't get hit, it's super hard to say with the information we have currently. Also Gauss and/or Mephrit TBs could become better, it's a lot of firepower to get in T1.

 Jancoran wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:


How is it not about tiers, you are claiming that Flayed Ones are good, so what tier are they in?

The question is a red herring. Tiers just have no bearing here. They are just... better at the job. I don't place them as an apex predator among the various armies. But when you're pplaying Necrons you're NOT playing those other armies. So there's no point to comparing them to OTHER armies. If you straight up want a whole bunch of models dead (16+ T4 Marines to be exact) while taking up space while wrapping up the next unit for a price that is totally acceptable give the impact that would have, then yahoo. You got your guys.

Tiers have every bearing if you're discussing how worthwhile a unit is, I'm also not saying compare them to other armies, I'm saying compare them to other Necron units, is that so hard? If you don't know the cost you can't possibly make any comment on how good the unit is, a unit is good in-so-far and to the degree that it is pts-efficient. How is the price totally acceptable? They are 55% more expensive than Warriors and exactly as easy to kill. Their damage output barely scales up to their cost unless you play Novokh and if you do you still have to factor in the fact that they are a glass cannon. Why do you want a unit that can take up space and wrap things unless you think it's a pts efficient way to win the game or it's fun. I can see the fun aspect, but it's not pts efficient. Yes FOs can do work, but they are not worth 17 pts compared to other Necron units or the competitive meta.

 vict0988 wrote:

Flayed Ones have M5, they advance 3,5", charge 7". T2 you have moved 13,5" and can charge 2d6, how are they getting into melee T2? You are assuming that your opponent walks any amount forwards without also killing the Flayed Ones, this is less realistic than a T1 Wraith charge. If you walk them across the board I'd say T3 at the earliest and T4 is not unlikely against some armies.

You don't NECESSARILY need to go to the enemy with Flayed Ones, or really any melee unit. Objectives force the action. The LOS blocker forces it also. I have told you this can be a turn 3 gambit.

Why are you saying that Flayed Ones get in T2, same time as Flayed Ones? It's unrealistic that they get into combat at the same time, you're completely ignoring 7" of Movement.

If you face an assault heavy force, then getting there will be easy. They'll do the work for you. If its a balanced force like mine is, then you will clear the landing zone and Drop them. If its a Gunline you will play the shadow and clear one OR th other side as thoroughly as possible and when the Scarabs arrive that will likely be when you have your opening. I have no crystal ball. I can only speak in generalities here.

Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? How about Genestealers, Aberrants, Zerkers? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee, you might as well take Warriors for melee, they are much more durable and then you fall back and shoot the target instead of staying in melee with Flayed Ones.

And SOMETIMES very last one of the bastards will die. Just like all units the enemy DECIDES they want dead and that you put in a position to oblige them. Am I right?

That's where pts efficiency comes in, Flayed Ones cost 17 pts per T4 wound with 4+/7++, that's super expensive. Intercessors pay 17 pts for 2W T4 3+/7++, Immortals pay 15 pts for T4 3+/7++, Warriors have the exact same profile but at 65% of the cost, this is significant.

 vict0988 wrote:

I'm assuming both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the full amount of attacks, I'm assuming that your glass cannon unit suffers no casualties and my semi-tank unit suffers no damage.This is unrealistic and in favour of Flayed Ones, but let's say your opponent isn't aware that Flayed Ones run away when they lose 14 of their friends and chooses not to shoot lascannons at Flayed Ones, despite it being relatively efficient.

I mean...you can SAY I wont use CP to ignore morale... But as for comparisons, We cannot possibly know what the dice will do to us on the approach. We just cant. So.

You pay 2 CP and now you're left with 11 Flayed Ones assuming you don't have a Cryptek (Crypteks are expensive I'd demand you add that to the price if you want to do that calculation). So now you've spent 2 CP to keep your Flayed Ones half alive, next turn your opponent can finish them off. We can estimate dice rolls by doing math. Flayed Ones don't like math though, because they are a mathematically bad choice.

 vict0988 wrote:

Regeneration is pie in the sky,

Its literally the main schtick of the army. Lol.

 vict0988 wrote:


I think the question is whether using the Deceiver to move Warriors, Ghost Arks, C'tan (big and small) up the field is going to depend whether they get pts reductions
rate 14 or 20 Flayed Ones.

A pointsreduction would definitely tilt things firther for the Flayed Ones. It can only help.

Gawd, this could have been so much simpler.

Jancoran

In post 2 all you had to do, was to say:

"Well, I hear what you say, but here is a game I played, [...], read that batrep and see. Flayed Ones did what they did well, and as you could see they were just as good as any other unit would have been."

"Anecdotal you say? Sure. Just watch me next time."

[1 week later]

"So check out this game, see, it worked again. And as I said it would. Im teling (and showing you), they can be played effectively"

--

Instead you do this... crappy-prison-movie fresh-inmate thing where you punch the biggest guy around to make a name for yourself, grabbing attention for yourself by any means possible. That got old... soo long ago.


This is a nice place. With nice rational people. Who talk normal to each other. Give it a chance.

Now will you please go out and play your flayed ones and write up those nice bat reps about then where you make them shine? Or point me to where they are, because I admit I quickly started to scroll passed your vitriol-infested walls of texts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and a quick disclaimer, if there was a mode change for the better the last page I may not have caught up to that.

 vict0988 wrote:

Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee

Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.

 Jancoran wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee

Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.

And 30 Ork Boyz kill 20 Flayed Ones, one costs 210, the other costs 340. Ergo, the 210 pt unit is more pts efficient. Flayed Ones are too ineffective pts-wise to be worth bringing in competitive games. If you're a sucker for pain you can still do it and lose most of the time or you have a big brain you might still be able to make it work. Flayed Ones are too pts inefficient compared to our other choices and the other choices of other factions. Alright, I think I'm done now, Jancoran just go in and edit your old posts instead of making new posts, I think people are pretty tired of us already.

 Jancoran wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee

Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.

And reverse is true as well. Difference being orks cost less and while flayed ones have 28% chance of making charge orks have 78%. Gee. Now do I want cheaper unit that does same 78% time or more expensive unit that does 28%. And the boyz aren't even that good unit to begin with and are getting fewer and fewer in competive ork lists.

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper with your ridiculous comparisons that don't bear any truth when exposed to cold hard facts.

Remember, it's not a vacuum. You play around it to get first charge.

Which is not easy.

And is something the ork player has to worry less about than you.

At this point, you're all better off just not engaging.

Anyway, in better news. RUMOUR ENGINE!!!!!



That material that's encased doesn't have the right structure to be metal. It looks like it's rock.

I'm predicting it's something Blackstone related, probably an anti-psyker device.

There is talk of a new Szeras model, but I don't see that thing being particularly.. "cryptek'y"

And rocky isn't a commonly used Necron aesthetic.

But could be a gloom prism perhaps?

Jancoran, you have completely ignored the math I presented. You say it's wrong to compare one max unit of Wraiths (unbuffed) to one max unit of Flayed Ones (unbuffed), without really giving any reasons for that.

Now, with the rumoured 7 point drop, Flayed Ones look much better. But as they are NOW... They're not very good. Certainly not as good as Wraiths.

There is an actual rumour for FO ? I thought it was wishlists ?
At ten points if would definitively try them.

It’s what I heard. No idea if that’s accurate.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s what I heard. No idea if that’s accurate.

The rumour comes from the fact that they're 10pts in Kill Team afaik.

Can we freaking drop the Flayed Ones discussion already?! Frak me its nothing but this for 3 pages.

Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee

Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.

And 30 Ork Boyz kill 20 Flayed Ones, one costs 210, the other costs 340. Ergo, the 210 pt unit is more pts efficient. Flayed Ones are too ineffective pts-wise to be worth bringing in competitive games. If you're a sucker for pain you can still do it and lose most of the time or you have a big brain you might still be able to make it work. Flayed Ones are too pts inefficient compared to our other choices and the other choices of other factions. Alright, I think I'm done now, Jancoran just go in and edit your old posts instead of making new posts, I think people are pretty tired of us already.

Wait, was playing orks one of your options in the necron codex?

No. So maybe we need to remember that. =)

Like i said: bemoaning that some other army can do this or that better doesn't really change what we're talking about. This is about whether you take 7 Wraiths or 20 Flayed Ones. Not whether some other codex has a cool melee unit,


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 JNAProductions wrote:
Jancoran, you have completely ignored the math I presented. You say it's wrong to compare one max unit of Wraiths (unbuffed) to one max unit of Flayed Ones (unbuffed), without really giving any reasons for that.

Now, with the rumoured 7 point drop, Flayed Ones look much better. But as they are NOW... They're not very good. Certainly not as good as Wraiths.

Actually I countered your math with accurate math, and explanations. That's what factually happened.

You've DECIDED not to make use of Flayed Ones. You have talked yourself out of it and I am fine with it.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Can we freaking drop the Flayed Ones discussion already?! Frak me its nothing but this for 3 pages.

Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

Praetorians always looked great, and with a points drop I definitely will try them.

Well, Im convinced that FO's are good now. Although, I'll probably wait for them to get a plastic kit because I can't justify spending over $100 for a full unit.