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tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well if you put together a couple of Tesla ones you would have spare parts.

I have all weapons for tomb blades. For starters allows to finetune for plan. For second eventually gw will change balance making gauss king and tesla junk

Last edition I used 2 units of Tomb Blades with Tesla to camp objectives. Yep. That's about it.

tneva82 wrote:

I have all weapons for tomb blades. For starters allows to finetune for plan. For second eventually gw will change balance making gauss king and tesla junk

A lot of "on a 6+ something happens" rules shift towards unmodified roll. I wouldn't be surprised that Tesla will change to be unmodified too in the future (like in 9th edition codex, or before if they reprint codex).

My first Tomb Blades (unpainted) were from 5th, when Gauss was the only good weapon. I've since added another unit of tesla,i'm barely finishing painting right know. I think Gauss will be the new hotness when my last Tesla Tomb Blade will be finished and i will have to start again

That's why you put 'em in magnets

Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.

 Dynas wrote:
Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.

I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.

I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but arguing"making their points back" is misleading in it's nature. There are important qualities that can never be measured in points. Flyers can keep a knight or a unit of genestealers from moving in a key direction. And they soak up fire that most surely would be better aimed at other units of yours.

torblind wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.

I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but arguing"making their points back" is misleading in it's nature. There are important qualities that can never be measured in points. Flyers can keep a knight or a unit of genestealers from moving in a key direction. And they soak up fire that most surely would be better aimed at other units of yours.

True enough, but in the current meta I don't think either of those threats is our primary concern. That spare ghost ark I mentioned can tie up genestealers/knights since it can turbo up the field. Doom Scythes are too squishy for their points. We have scarabs for screening, probably the best screen in the game. Our advantage vs marines and flyers is big guns and lots of them, I think other units handle that role better than Doom Scythes. Which is a shame because they're cool af.

IanVanCheese wrote:

torblind wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.

I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but arguing"making their points back" is misleading in it's nature. There are important qualities that can never be measured in points. Flyers can keep a knight or a unit of genestealers from moving in a key direction. And they soak up fire that most surely would be better aimed at other units of yours.

True enough, but in the current meta I don't think either of those threats is our primary concern. That spare ghost ark I mentioned can tie up genestealers/knights since it can turbo up the field. Doom Scythes are too squishy for their points. We have scarabs for screening, probably the best screen in the game. Our advantage vs marines and flyers is big guns and lots of them, I think other units handle that role better than Doom Scythes. Which is a shame because they're cool af.

Don't forget the flyers can't even be chargeed by most melee units

In general, they can fly up in his face, half the times getting off their stratagem to wreck havoc, bit it leaves him struggling in his starting blocks, which is a valuable thing. While you get to walk up and dominate the midfield.

Nothing is of course black and white like this, but if you swap all that out for backfield lingering heavy destroyers, you need to plan around this, and load up on wraiths, and or tomb blades, and likely multiple ghost arks - Planning that has little to do with simply making points back.

Agree, you need to plan but I'd question how often we're seeing melee threats these days - at least not conventional melee threats that just march up the board.

Our flyers are also a lot worse at screening because they can't hover and can't do the eldar double turn. Then consider their cost vs the cost of the marine/eldar flyers. We're already on the back foot, I don't think we can afford to be sinking 450 pts into a gimmick that only works half the time and even then, is only effective against castles.

Also Heavy Destroyers don't have to hide in back. They move 10, fly and don't need support units to be effective.

I was iffy on Doom Scythes pre CA, now I'm convinced they're a trap.

Yeah they are definitely not without weaknesses and tricky to play well. I admit I did not see them rising to power the way they did.

I have only ever played them once, and they did all those things I said, to 5 leman russes, -1 to hit hurting the AM somewhat. It took him till third turn before he was ready to move up his remaining tanks, and at that point my Tesla immortals and tlmb blades were in key position to subdue him while my remaining DDA was blasting him. Called it shortly afterwards. Anecdotal but I remember I was impressed by the way that let me dominate him. (Got off the stratagem twice though, so there was that)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I even showed and told back then:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4920/752626.page#10106730

torblind wrote:
Yeah they are definitely not without weaknesses and tricky to play well. I admit I did not see them rising to power the way they did.

I have only ever played them once, and they did all those things I said, to 5 leman russes, -1 to hit hurting the AM somewhat. It took him till third turn before he was ready to move up his remaining tanks, and at that point my Tesla immortals and tlmb blades were in key position to subdue him while my remaining DDA was blasting him. Called it shortly afterwards. Anecdotal but I remember I was impressed by the way that let me dominate him. (Got off the stratagem twice though, so there was that)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I even showed and told back then:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4920/752626.page#10106730

How often are you seeing Guard tank columns in competitive play these days? I'm not denying they have their uses. What I'm saying is that in the current competitive meta, they've lost their place. Marines and Eldar will blow them out of the sky without breaking a sweat. Even Tau can mitigate their damage these days as they're taking a more aggressive stance with their riptides. GSC and Orks will struggle to get past them on turn one, which is nice but again we have other units that can screen for us.

Not saying you can't use them, not even saying you can't have great success with them. But I think they've dropped down the tier list while other things have moved up past them.

Time will tell of course, CA2019 isn't even out yet but I think we'll see Scythes drop out of the top competitive lists.

The only way I've made Doom Scythes work is as Sautekh and even then they are a hit and miss for what they are supposed to do. The -1 to hit for any other dynasty is hard to deal with.

D3 shots just isn't enough, similar to the Demolisher cannon buff this should be bumped up to D6 or even more ambitious back to the old rules where you'd draw a line between two points and anything underneath takes a single hit (similar to Mortarion's Lantern)

The -1 is so bad, at that point why not just use regular Scythes for the same purpose?

Doom Scythes are one of our best tools against these Thunderfire Cannons which most marines bring these days.

The D3 shots aren't so great, and are hardly used when you pull of the strat, to why I prefer to put them under Mephrit. Give the Tesla shots AP 1 and they can do decent work to backfield units.

I have been running 2 DDA and a 3 man squad of heavy destroyers for the last year and the heavy destroyers have been a very consistent element in my list every game. I kit bashed my DDA's and I am reticent to say I'll never assemble another, but it's probably the truth because those models are a real PITA but that forced me to use the heavy destroyers.

On paper you would think they would be fragile, but that unit is a real pain for my opponents. It is easily hidden and always gets a volley off, usually from cover, and it is WAY more consistent then the DDA's. They always have their 3 shots which reroll 1's naturally. If my normal unit of destroyers dies I can always use elimination protocols on them as well, which normally results in 3d6 damage on something.

I already had purchased 6 more destroyers speculatively, and now I am going to be making them two more units of heavies. At 37 a pop, that's insane efficiency.

To weigh in on the air wing of Doomscythes, I'll say the psychological impact of the strat can be big, but the damage output is never great on a worthy opponent. Generally you catch a dude off guard now and again, but then they learn and it never happens, or when it does they are baiting you. By that I mean for example, I played a mirror match at a tourny recently and the other necron player had a doom wing, I put imotekh and a lord next to my destoryers and my tomb blades to entice him, he took the bait and killed the lord who got back up with resurrection protocols and ended up killing 2 bikes and 2 destroyers. I rolled reanimation in my turn and got both destroyers and 1 bike back then killed 2 of the three doomscythes in return just with my secondary fire that was out of range or line of sight of his troops.

Doomscythes are still solid but actually in my last few games I have just brought a pair. I use them to keep characters honest and/or screen my lines from ninja warsuits. I think that's where they shine, a screen that can't be assaulted by most things that are popular in the meta ATM.

In the past I often found the normal shots from the deathrays did more then the mortals anyway and it didn't force me into clumping my fliers in front of their army.

I also want to say stalkers are solid at 115. Thats 2 more heavy guas shots that provide rerolls for your Dscythes or DDA's which is pretty sweet. For some reason people ALWAYS dump fire into mine when I take them. No idea why since the buff is OK, but not game changing but folks treat them like marker lights from tau. I always enjoy it since they can really soak shots being a rare 3+ save vehicle, especially if you burn a quantum deflection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

elook wrote:
Doom Scythes are one of our best tools against these Thunderfire Cannons which most marines bring these days.

The D3 shots aren't so great, and are hardly used when you pull of the strat, to why I prefer to put them under Mephrit. Give the Tesla shots AP 1 and they can do decent work to backfield units.

This is true, but also goes along with my point before. You don't want to use the strat hear, and I feel 3 is a hefty sink.

Plus as a side note my army runs no troops anymore. I run with 2 6 man destroyer units and a heavy destroyer unit, plus a 9 man gaus blaster tomb blade unit along with my vehicles. With the CA cuts I may get to squeeze some scarabs in. I actually don't mind thunderfire canons as much as a normal list with immortals for obvious reasons, I can't be tremor shelled, and my units are WAY tougher and shrug most of the fire. I came to the conclusion I was sick of wasting points on troops and HQ tax for CP I didn't really need. With Imotehk my list has 6 CP and that's all I need.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I also want to say stalkers are solid at 115. Thats 2 more heavy guass shots that provide rerolls for your Dscythes or DDA's which is pretty sweet. For some reason people ALWAYS dump fire into mine when I take them. No idea why since the buff is OK, but not game changing but folks treat them like marker lights from tau. I always enjoy it since they can really soak shots being a rare 3+ save vehicle, especially if you burn a quantum deflection.

Agree on this, I've been using one since last CA, the further drop was just a nice surprise. Reroll 1s on your DDAs can be huge and it's a great screen in it's own right because it's bloody huge. Also agree on it it being target priority whenever I bring it. i think people focus them down because they have less wounds than DDAs so they're less of a pain to kill. Had great success with mine at the team tournament recently though, including tying up Mephiston, Smash Captain and chaplain for a turn in combat.

Not sure I'm ready to give up my immortals for tomb blades yet though, but we'll see. I play mainly CA missions over ITC and I really like to have troops on the ground. I can see a decent argument for shifting to Tomb blades though.

The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.

The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:

To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):

1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]

Which is:

1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49

This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.

I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,

Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.

Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.

 DogHeadGod wrote:
Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.

Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.

Did they drop further this release?

I agree with the triple doomscythe analysis. I've been using them for quite a while, and it's quite seldom that my opponent manages to kill even one in the first turn. The threat they pose to castles is game changing.

Charge blocking is difficult to pull off if you want them to not fly off the board and be effective on turn 4.

Best of all is that they are amazing character snipers! You can fly them directly within 1" of a character making it the closest target. Most characters will die to combined shots of the Tesla destructor and Death ray.

So almost all of this is forcing your opponent to spread out (to avoid the strategem), shooting at a -1 to hit target at long range. But then conversely, they want to clump together to protect their characters from getting sniped by just a single DS.

While they are altering their game-plan to prevent this, you have the benefit of being reactive to their mistakes, or just flying around killing stuff if there are no better options.

How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogHeadGod wrote:
Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.

Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.

Likely cash. Would have those if they weren"t so expensive. With sisters incoming doesn't look i'l' get them fast :( nor heavy destroyers. 9 costs 200e...ugh

tneva82 wrote:
How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?

Mostly placement.
* Put them in a corner out of their range of their weapons
* Sometimes you go first
* Terrain is your friend, smaller units can have LOS blocked by mid-table terrain
* Sometimes you laugh as they pour their entire army into a single target at -1, leaving the rest of your army unscathed
* Putting them out of range forces them to move forward into our medium range where Tesla, Gauss and Assault are threats

Even if they kill one, the other two are still quite effective as I've detailed above. Hard to argue given the success these have seen in a competitive environment.
Though to get maximum effectiveness in turns 1-3, I find they are difficult to bring to bear in turn 5 and 6, so it takes a lot of pre-planning or willingness to sacrifice the DS to make an important kill.

dapperbandit wrote:
The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.

Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:
The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:

To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):

1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]

Which is:

1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49

This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.

I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,

Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.

 Red Corsair wrote:

dapperbandit wrote:
The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.

Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:
The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:

To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):

1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]

Which is:

1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49

This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.

I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,

Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.

You don't have to damage it, just declare it a target for shooting.

barontuman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?

Mostly placement.
* Put them in a corner out of their range of their weapons
* Sometimes you go first
* Terrain is your friend, smaller units can have LOS blocked by mid-table terrain
* Sometimes you laugh as they pour their entire army into a single target at -1, leaving the rest of your army unscathed
* Putting them out of range forces them to move forward into our medium range where Tesla, Gauss and Assault are threats

Even if they kill one, the other two are still quite effective as I've detailed above. Hard to argue given the success these have seen in a competitive environment.
Though to get maximum effectiveness in turns 1-3, I find they are difficult to bring to bear in turn 5 and 6, so it takes a lot of pre-planning or willingness to sacrifice the DS to make an important kill.

This seems extremely unlikely in my area at least. The last time I ran three was against admech, I took the bait he provided and shot the strat off hitting castellans, las chickens, 2 units of breachers and two characters. When the dust settled I scratched the castellans who promptly healed to full, whiffed on the breachers (3 man teams) and killed one chicken and took one down to a single wound, which also healed. In response he shot down all three planes with less then half his army, probably closer to 1/3 actually. Upon reflection after the game we both agreed the strat was a total trap, ironically I already explained the theory pregame to him which is why he set up the way he did, I took the bait willingly because it was a toon up game for a tourny. We also concluded that it pulls the planes into a poor position, He set up second (which is what you want so you get first turn to use the strat) and he did it in a way that my planes all had to fly into a grouping in the middle, top of his deployment in order to be within 6 of eachother to fullfill the strat requirement. This meant even had he ignored them, the way he moved up and to the left flank meant all three planes would have had to bank hard right and all but one would have been in range, and all three would spend two more turns circling back around.

I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players, they know exactly how to position in order to force this problem which is why it generally devastates casual game armies or laid back opponents who are caught unaware but falls flat against the better players. I still like the doomscythe for my tool kit as I explained above, I just won't bother with the strat since where I play is not falling for it, or the strat is just too weak. It is a 50/50 roll on other single targets and a 1/3 shot on characters. Verse multi wound infantry (which is everywhere now) it just doesn't hit hard enough. It kills an average of 3 intercessors, 1.3 centurions or 2 aggressors. Not sure I'd consider that a win at 450 points and 1CP.

I usually splash 2 in to keep characters and artillery honest and to move block, I really wish they had a set 3 or even 2 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

dapperbandit wrote:
The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.

Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:
The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:

To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):

1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]

Which is:

1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49

This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.

I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,

Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.

You don't have to damage it, just declare it a target for shooting.

Yea I know, that isn't what I was saying. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't provide the reroll to itself. I was also saying he shouldn't be looking at the model only as a means to providing said reroll, the platform is decent at 115 all by itself.

 Red Corsair wrote:

barontuman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?

Mostly placement.
* Put them in a corner out of their range of their weapons
* Sometimes you go first
* Terrain is your friend, smaller units can have LOS blocked by mid-table terrain
* Sometimes you laugh as they pour their entire army into a single target at -1, leaving the rest of your army unscathed
* Putting them out of range forces them to move forward into our medium range where Tesla, Gauss and Assault are threats

Even if they kill one, the other two are still quite effective as I've detailed above. Hard to argue given the success these have seen in a competitive environment.
Though to get maximum effectiveness in turns 1-3, I find they are difficult to bring to bear in turn 5 and 6, so it takes a lot of pre-planning or willingness to sacrifice the DS to make an important kill.

This seems extremely unlikely in my area at least. The last time I ran three was against admech, I took the bait he provided and shot the strat off hitting castellans, las chickens, 2 units of breachers and two characters. When the dust settled I scratched the castellans who promptly healed to full, whiffed on the breachers (3 man teams) and killed one chicken and took one down to a single wound, which also healed. In response he shot down all three planes with less then half his army, probably closer to 1/3 actually. Upon reflection after the game we both agreed the strat was a total trap, ironically I already explained the theory pregame to him which is why he set up the way he did, I took the bait willingly because it was a toon up game for a tourny. We also concluded that it pulls the planes into a poor position, He set up second (which is what you want so you get first turn to use the strat) and he did it in a way that my planes all had to fly into a grouping in the middle, top of his deployment in order to be within 6 of eachother to fullfill the strat requirement. This meant even had he ignored them, the way he moved up and to the left flank meant all three planes would have had to bank hard right and all but one would have been in range, and all three would spend two more turns circling back around.

I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players, they know exactly how to position in order to force this problem which is why it generally devastates casual game armies or laid back opponents who are caught unaware but falls flat against the better players. I still like the doomscythe for my tool kit as I explained above, I just won't bother with the strat since where I play is not falling for it, or the strat is just too weak. It is a 50/50 roll on other single targets and a 1/3 shot on characters. Verse multi wound infantry (which is everywhere now) it just doesn't hit hard enough. It kills an average of 3 intercessors, 1.3 centurions or 2 aggressors. Not sure I'd consider that a win at 450 points and 1CP.

I usually splash 2 in to keep characters and artillery honest and to move block, I really wish they had a set 3 or even 2 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

dapperbandit wrote:
The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.

Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:
The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:

To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):

1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]

Which is:

1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49

This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.

I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,

Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.

You don't have to damage it, just declare it a target for shooting.

Yea I know, that isn't what I was saying. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't provide the reroll to itself. I was also saying he shouldn't be looking at the model only as a means to providing said reroll, the platform is decent at 115 all by itself.

The reroll criteria was being applied as a detrimental offset to the comparison against the Heavy Destroyer platform. In other words, value the guns as if they were almost as good as heavy Destroyers, where the ‘almost’ part is that HDs get reroll 1s naturally.

And the platform being “good on its own” is based on that same logic. It’s why I compared the benefit versus it’s adjusted cost, rather than the cost itself.

Tagging on the conversation:
Doesn't the Stalker synergize well with our two (arguably) best units incredibly well? With the CA points now, it seems two different routes make sense:
Keep 3 DDA and 3 DS with a Stalker or two.
Or
Run newly cheaper 3x3 Heavy Ds with a new cheaper D Lord. The reroll wounds plus reroll hits of 1 baked in, seems strong anti everything Marines. Is he worth the buff on his own? Run him with SoL for few more shots or charge in with a Warscythe?
Or go nuts and run it all? Seems like oppressive firepower.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I have been running 2 DDA and a 3 man squad of heavy destroyers for the last year and the heavy destroyers have been a very consistent element in my list every game. I kit bashed my DDA's and I am reticent to say I'll never assemble another, but it's probably the truth because those models are a real PITA but that forced me to use the heavy destroyers.

On paper you would think they would be fragile, but that unit is a real pain for my opponents. It is easily hidden and always gets a volley off, usually from cover, and it is WAY more consistent then the DDA's. They always have their 3 shots which reroll 1's naturally. If my normal unit of destroyers dies I can always use elimination protocols on them as well, which normally results in 3d6 damage on something.

Kind of blew me away here but I thought I was the only one running heavy destoyers. =D

Since the last CA my basic 2k list has been

2 Overloads
1 Cryptek
1 Lord

3x 10 Immortals

Nightbringer
10 S/B Lychguard

2x 4 Scarabs

2x 3 Heavy Destroters
2x DDA

I only really play with friends but I havent lost a game all year. The Heavy Destoyers are pretty tanky, assuming you deploy well, and generally get a kill a turn.

Right now I am thinking of getting another DDA or a blob of Flayed ones with the CA changes. I might changed to Stormlord as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogHeadGod wrote:
Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.

Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.

Likely cash. Would have those if they weren"t so expensive. With sisters incoming doesn't look i'l' get them fast :( nor heavy destroyers. 9 costs 200e...ugh

Yeah its the same thing with sniper drones. I have a friend that takes 3x 9 and they are just deadly. But......they are expensive cash wise.

 Red Corsair wrote:

barontuman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?

I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players,

Sorry, but you've been here long enough to know, that any time you pull the "playing against seasoned players" card, you're going to come off as smug. I could equally say that you simply don't have the practice/skill playing them, and it would be equally offensive.
It could also come down to the rest of your army composition, or perhaps the amount or style of terrain. All those are considerations. Honestly, it's not a given that using the strategem is always the right choice. Sometimes you'll do more damage just using the death rays. Forcing your opponent to change their play style is an advantage before you even set them on the table.

So you got suckered, it happens sometimes to the best of us, that doesn't change their effectiveness. DS are an excellent tool, and I as I said before, the prevalence of them in the competitive meta makes it pointless to argue against. Maybe they don't work for you, or the lists you've come across, but look to the meta, it's a pretty good indication that if something is taken in 3s very commonly, it's going to be a pretty good unit.