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Doctoralex wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm curious to see how well a 6-man unit of destroyers being fed Extermination Protocols would fare for anti-tank; if my math is right you should be able to do a pretty respectable chunk of damage just through sheer weight of rerolls. It's a much more survivable unit than the 3-man heavy D squad too.

Could work, though they still only have 24" range. Can be difficult to get those predators in the back.

I'd say take Destroyers for Anti-MEQ and some light-anti tank in a pinch, and then take the buffed DDA for proper anti-tank
.

Here are some stats I just generated for a few units shooting at a T7, 3+ save unit. (P/W is points per wound)
Seems like a big unit of destroyers is t6he most efficient if you can use the strategem.

dapperbandit wrote:
One thing I've seen that I never saw posted was the shot of the points cost of the Tesseract Vault. It's 496, same as the index. Not sure if it's worth that much even given the improvement's. But at least it didn't go up. Four improved powers of the Ctan do make it a mortal wounds factory that's for sure.

Also the Monolith. Didn't see anyone mention the change to its Portal of Exile. Doesn't have to be target of the charge for it to work, an enemy unit has to end a charge move within 1" of the model. 1" isn't great, was hopin for within 3" or something. In fact, not even sure how that would work unless a big unit charges to surround a unit you have just in front of the monolith. Surely, even if you put a unit base to hull with the monolith a charging enemy could do it without triggering the Portal? Seems like something a player could easily avoid.

Unit can't end up closer than 1" of the monolith(or any model) after making a charge unless the monolith was declared a target of the charge.

It's very interesting 20 warriors vs 10 immortals. With ignore morale 2x20 warriors look cool. Killing 20 T4 4+/5++ models in single round is not very easy. And now the ignore morale so can move+advance 11', still shoot and reanimate.

So i'm thinking running 2x20 warriors, 2x6 Destroyers and 3x3 Tomb blades as a starting point. If opponent spends all it's shooting for killing 20 warriors - good for me - my other stuff is safe.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Ah I get it now, your one of those gamers that literally needs to have a dark reaper level unit in order to be happy... It's the only explanation for willfully acting like a brick wall. If you think a 17 point model should be killing everything in sight without any other unit synergy or tactics then that really does speak volumes..

Lol hardly. I own 5 Dark Reapers and don't intend to get more.

How is the triarch stalker compared to the doomsday ark, heat ray vs twin heavy gauss cannons? I do like the model, though it will be even better after a small conversion to remove the pilot.

Was thinking of picking up a necron start collecting, and going from there.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Ah I get it now, your one of those gamers that literally needs to have a dark reaper level unit in order to be happy... It's the only explanation for willfully acting like a brick wall. If you think a 17 point model should be killing everything in sight without any other unit synergy or tactics then that really does speak volumes.

I think his point was that Flayed ones aren't very efficient. They've got no guns, they're slow (especially for melee units), they're not particularly resilient (no more than Warriors - which cost about 2/3 what they do), and their weapons have no AP and D1. Even with rerolls, that really doesn't seem like a particularly good deal.

I mean, 20 Immortals is 340pts and has 30 S4 AP- D1 attacks in combat (rerolling failed wounds).

For the same cost, 20 Immortals either have 20 S5 AP-2 D1 shots (40 at 12") or 40 shots at 24" with their S5 AP- D1 weapons that inflict 3 hits for every 6 rolled (so you can expect 40 hits, assuming no MWBD).

You've also got stuff like Destroyers. For about the same cost, 7 Destroyers will put out 21 S6 AP-3 Dd3 shots - which certainly win on quality if not quantity.

My point is, Flayed Ones don't appear to gain much (if anything) for being expensive, melee-only units. I haven't done the math, but I don't see them outperforming Immortals in most circumstances. Hell, even if they are better against a few units, I still don't think they're good enough to offset the additional risks and such associated with melee. That's how I see it, anyway.

Now, of course, you can buff the Flayed Ones with other stuff like MWBD to improve their performance. However, I think the issue becomes one of throwing good points after bad (or mediocre). You can do it, but wouldn't you rather buff an already-good unit? As opposed to one that needs the buff to be good, if you see what I mean. Or, hell, wouldn't you rather take a unit that doesn't need the buff at all? Then you can take more units rather than HQs.

Each to their own obviously, but I'm not seeing the appeal of Flayed Ones.

Then again, I didn't see the appeal of them before, either.

Still looking at the obelisk vs tesseract vault comparison, then noticed the obelisk stratagem. Holy cow that's awesome. I just imagine suddenly the obelisk coming down into the battlefield with Tau and using that. That's a lot of drones falling from the sky, as well as some damaged suits really taking a hit.

I may build the obelisk after all.......

Also the talent for annihilation stratagem will be amazing on a vault or obelisk, 6's = 4 hits instead of 3? Oh good lord! Bring on the swarms.

Azuza001 wrote:
Still looking at the obelisk vs tesseract vault comparison, then noticed the obelisk stratagem. Holy cow that's awesome. I just imagine suddenly the obelisk coming down into the battlefield with Tau and using that. That's a lot of drones falling from the sky, as well as some damaged suits really taking a hit.

I may build the obelisk after all.......

You could always build the obelisk and run the Transcendent C'tan on foot.

And anyone knows yet what special rules the cryptek from the forgebane box will have?

 ThePie wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Still looking at the obelisk vs tesseract vault comparison, then noticed the obelisk stratagem. Holy cow that's awesome. I just imagine suddenly the obelisk coming down into the battlefield with Tau and using that. That's a lot of drones falling from the sky, as well as some damaged suits really taking a hit.

I may build the obelisk after all.......

You could always build the obelisk and run the Transcendent C'tan on foot.

And anyone knows yet what special rules the cryptek from the forgebane box will have?

I don't think there will be special rules except cloak

 ThePie wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Still looking at the obelisk vs tesseract vault comparison, then noticed the obelisk stratagem. Holy cow that's awesome. I just imagine suddenly the obelisk coming down into the battlefield with Tau and using that. That's a lot of drones falling from the sky, as well as some damaged suits really taking a hit.

I may build the obelisk after all.......

You could always build the obelisk and run the Transcendent C'tan on foot

That was my original plan, plus some other bonuses (not ready to show off my work yet). I am trying to stretch the model as far as possible, but I got worried I made a mistake when the vault got the 4++ save and Obelisk apparently doesn't get that or quantum shielding. It may still not be the best bang / points but it seems it may still have a good place in some lists.

I mean, think of everything that can fly.... Some factions are based around it. Eldar vehicles / bikes and tau just jump to my mind as factions that may have a serious issue with this option. Not saying they won't kill it once it hits the field but you could do a lot of mortal wounds before it dies.


Still wish it had an invulnerable of some sort though.

Have people looked at our Forgeworld units considering the stratagems? I need to go over it, but I'd love to field the Tomb Stalker effectively.

countbenignito wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm curious to see how well a 6-man unit of destroyers being fed Extermination Protocols would fare for anti-tank; if my math is right you should be able to do a pretty respectable chunk of damage just through sheer weight of rerolls. It's a much more survivable unit than the 3-man heavy D squad too.

Could work, though they still only have 24" range. Can be difficult to get those predators in the back.

I'd say take Destroyers for Anti-MEQ and some light-anti tank in a pinch, and then take the buffed DDA for proper anti-tank
.

Here are some stats I just generated for a few units shooting at a T7, 3+ save unit. (P/W is points per wound)
Seems like a big unit of destroyers is t6he most efficient if you can use the strategem.

Interesting, so even without the stratagem heavy destroyers are more efficient than the doomsday ark and regular destroyers aren't too shabby in a pinch.

Mind you I guess that's to be expected of a D6 shot weapon: Poor reliability.

Is it only 1 Artefact per army or 1 per detachment? So many sweet Artefacts would be a same to only pick 1.

Drakmord wrote:
Have people looked at our Forgeworld units considering the stratagems? I need to go over it, but I'd love to field the Tomb Stalker effectively.

They're still considered Canoptek correct? So you could do the one to give them RP and Advance + Charge. I don't own the Xenos FW book though so I don't know how expensive they are.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
Have people looked at our Forgeworld units considering the stratagems? I need to go over it, but I'd love to field the Tomb Stalker effectively.

They're still considered Canoptek correct? So you could do the one to give them RP and Advance + Charge. I don't own the Xenos FW book though so I don't know how expensive they are.

Canoptek and Dynasty, which is nice. The Stalker has the same wounds and melee output as 3 Wraiths, with 1 more Toughness and d3 damage instead of a flat 2, but no invulnerable save. I don't think 1T makes up for that.

Aren't they T7?

They're T7, but I thought Wraiths were T6 -- it's been a day, I'm all confused.

 Punisher wrote:
Is it only 1 Artefact per army or 1 per detachment? So many sweet Artefacts would be a same to only pick 1.

Every army, no matter how their Detachments are set up, gets one. Then, all Codices (including Necrons) have a Stratagem - pay 1CP for an extra Artifact, pay 3CP for another. I generally don't think it's worth even 1 more, since I think CPs are so precious.

I wouldn't call Tomb Stalkers amazing, but...

Last edition I tried running mine a bunch of times, and it never paid off. Just couldn't close in with the enemy, and took disproportionate fire due to it's appearance.

Now at least it has a 10 inch move and a reliable deep strike that it can attempt to charge from. Amazing model, so I'm happy it at least -can- be ran and accomplish anything.

Now, tomb sentinels with Sautekh dynasty trait could be very interesting with their exile cannons.

I'm Late to the party it seems, I would have been here sooner except the government stole my favorite hour of sleep to give it to the farmers or something. So I broke out the old spreadsheet to compare new to old, using Cost per kill metric I've previously described, all of the results are available on my spreadsheet.

Winners
Destroyers are hands down the most improved unit, with respectable Cost Per Kill in just about every target profile, except GEQ (more on this in a minute). They are good enough that I'm nervous they will get changed in the final draft.

Doomsday ark got much better at killing Vehicles, and a little more useful all around.

Tomb Blades, CCB, heavy destroyers, and the monolith all got noticeably better

Losers
Wraiths, Despite the buffs to their basic attack their effectiveness fell in every category do to a substantial cost increase. Their hit and run is a big increase in in utility, they can no longer be tar pitted. However that's probably less valuable than one would think, most of the units you'd charge with wraiths should fall back anyway, so it's only useful when someone is trying to grind them out in CC. There is also the fact that any unit that could take on wraiths and win is probably a unit you should leave in CC with the wraiths because they could destroy any other necron unit in the blink of an eye.

Flayed ones, points reduction doesn't make up for the lost attack, but let's face it you probably weren't running them anyway.

Scarabs, I hesitate to put them in the loser category because we weren't relying on them to be offensive powerhouses, so the weapon skill nerf doesn't really affect their main role. Still, there were quite a few situations where their number of attacks and 3+ weapon skill might turn the tide of a fight, and now they are less likely to do that.

The ugly
GEQ is a pretty big hole in our abilities, Literally our most efficient unit without buffs is tomb blades with particle casters, and they are still awful at it. The only viable strategy is Immortals with tesla, MWBD, and the Sautekh stratagem, so they can get tesla procs on 4+.

I'm a bit up in the air over Flayed Ones. The point drop is substantial, but they're probably still a bit overpointed for T4 4+ W1 models. However, when it comes to clearing Hordes, accept no substitutes, Novokh Flayed Ones will remove basically any Infantry unit in the game before they can say "hey, those claws look pretty sharp...". They still struggle with the 9" charge and can get rekt if they're left out in the cold, but pound for pound they cut through fleshy dudes like little else in the game.

1 CP (Nephrek) During deployment. One infantry or Swarm unit gains 9" deepstrike.

Can it be used multiple times?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
1 CP (Nephrek) During deployment. One infantry or Swarm unit gains 9" deepstrike.

Can it be used multiple times?

As it currently stands, yes. Compare the Artifact Stratagem, which specifically states "This Stratagem may only be used once per battle". Since there is no such delimiter on the Nephrek Stratagem (at this point in time), you can use it multiple times.

Cool, so we can create Nephrek Outrider:
2x6 Destroyers + wraith / scarabs and cheap HQ.

So we can put 2x6 Nephrek Destroyers in DS to protect them from alpha strike. Sounds cool.

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Ah I get it now, your one of those gamers that literally needs to have a dark reaper level unit in order to be happy... It's the only explanation for willfully acting like a brick wall. If you think a 17 point model should be killing everything in sight without any other unit synergy or tactics then that really does speak volumes.

I think his point was that Flayed ones aren't very efficient. They've got no guns, they're slow (especially for melee units), they're not particularly resilient (no more than Warriors - which cost about 2/3 what they do), and their weapons have no AP and D1. Even with rerolls, that really doesn't seem like a particularly good deal.

I mean, 20 Immortals is 340pts and has 30 S4 AP- D1 attacks in combat (rerolling failed wounds).

For the same cost, 20 Immortals either have 20 S5 AP-2 D1 shots (40 at 12") or 40 shots at 24" with their S5 AP- D1 weapons that inflict 3 hits for every 6 rolled (so you can expect 40 hits, assuming no MWBD).

You've also got stuff like Destroyers. For about the same cost, 7 Destroyers will put out 21 S6 AP-3 Dd3 shots - which certainly win on quality if not quantity.

My point is, Flayed Ones don't appear to gain much (if anything) for being expensive, melee-only units. I haven't done the math, but I don't see them outperforming Immortals in most circumstances. Hell, even if they are better against a few units, I still don't think they're good enough to offset the additional risks and such associated with melee. That's how I see it, anyway.

Now, of course, you can buff the Flayed Ones with other stuff like MWBD to improve their performance. However, I think the issue becomes one of throwing good points after bad (or mediocre). You can do it, but wouldn't you rather buff an already-good unit? As opposed to one that needs the buff to be good, if you see what I mean. Or, hell, wouldn't you rather take a unit that doesn't need the buff at all? Then you can take more units rather than HQs.

Each to their own obviously, but I'm not seeing the appeal of Flayed Ones.

Then again, I didn't see the appeal of them before, either.

Your missing my point however. I never claimed they were amazing. My point was that the unit is really not all that bad for its points. I can't stand the double standard that happens whenever someone complains as well. We all account for tesla immortals using dynastic codes and MWBD but when someone mentions the same buffs make FO considerably better somehow it's time to call it a crutch or disingenuous. Seriously, how hard is it to get Wave of command or MWBD off on a brick of 20 FO? So unlike warriors or Immortals, they are alpha strike safe and only need to make an 8" charge. For that they average 78 hits. HITS. Show me what else in the book can get you 78 s4 hits for 340 points. Feth me, you could go hog wild and fight twice even but lets ignore that. Then those 78 hits (which is obscene) have shred meaning they do more wounds to T1-7 then s5. Combat is trickier to pull of sure, but it also gets around things like several of the hit mods in the game as well as cover, it also allows the unit to take more of the table and tie down other enemy units.

Everything in the book should not be point and click.

EDIT sorry the 78 hits is coming from using Anarkyr. I personally really like using him but even without him your looking at 59 hits and they continue to lead the pack against horde.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Cool, so we can create Nephrek Outrider:
2x6 Destroyers + wraith / scarabs and cheap HQ.

So we can put 2x6 Nephrek Destroyers in DS to protect them from alpha strike. Sounds cool.

Yep, Nephrekh Destroyers are the new Obliterators. Very good. I had a feeling they'd be my dynasty when the codes were leaked and the stratagem only pushes that further.

 Grimgold wrote:
Their hit and run is a big increase in in utility, they can no longer be tar pitted. However that's probably less valuable than one would think, most of the units you'd charge with wraiths should fall back anyway, so it's only useful when someone is trying to grind them out in CC. There is also the fact that any unit that could take on wraiths and win is probably a unit you should leave in CC with the wraiths because they could destroy any other necron unit in the blink of an eye.

Apparently you have never been counter charged by a fething rhino or some other light vehicle. Wraiths were so laughably counter-able prior to the new ability it was a joke. The fall back and assault ability is insanely useful. Turn 1 advance and charge. Turn two RP strat the unit with hopefully a conoptek cloker nearby and then fall back towards their vanguard and tie down as many things as possible. Being able to move straight passed screens so you can shut down shooty units is a big deal.

Any unit that can kill the wraiths needs to be shot, better yet you can always leave shoot the bastards and then recharge them every turn. Spread sheets are useful, but you can't grade every unit on a spread sheet. Several units have abilities or stratagems that stack to make things hit harder, survive longer, or be more flexible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
I'm a bit up in the air over Flayed Ones. The point drop is substantial, but they're probably still a bit overpointed for T4 4+ W1 models. However, when it comes to clearing Hordes, accept no substitutes, Novokh Flayed Ones will remove basically any Infantry unit in the game before they can say "hey, those claws look pretty sharp...". They still struggle with the 9" charge and can get rekt if they're left out in the cold, but pound for pound they cut through fleshy dudes like little else in the game.

^This. The unit is far from perfect, but when you run the numbers you really can't come close to the amount of damage they can inflict on hordes with anything else for the cost. Not to mention I am not sure they will be a top priority for most opponents. With a fast unit of wraiths, veiled threats and deepstriking destroyers if your opponent is protecting their chaf from flayed ones you probably already will win.

 Red Corsair wrote:
So unlike warriors or Immortals, they are alpha strike safe and only need to make an 8" charge.

This is just me, personally, but 8" is still too risky for my liking.
Perhaps with Obyron, but then you've gotta include Zahndrekh AND someone with a Veil.
Is there another way to reduce the distance needed for FO to charge down to a more statistically favorable number that doesn't cost too much?

(And let's take it easy on the snide/snarky jabs, guys)

An Overlord with Implacable Conqueror and the Veil of Darkness, with 20 Flayed Ones. MWBD, +1 to Charge distance, and re-roll charges. Inexpensive and a good chance to make it in.

You can also do Kutlakh and 20 Flayed Ones, and run under Nephrekh; currently you can choose Dynasties if your Dynasty isn't on the list. Move 5", Advance 7", and Charge 2d6+1". Costs more than the former, but doesn't require your Relic. However depending on deployment I believe this one is more likely to be a Turn 2 charge and the former can get at more targets as it's deep striking.

Combat is win big lose big. There needs to be risk involved if a unit is going to be doing that sort of consistent damage.