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 skoffs wrote:
I think it might be a good idea to compile a list of what things want to be from what Dynasty and why.
Eg.

Gauss Immortals (Mephrit, for AP-1 code./Sautekh, for advance and shoot code)
Tesla Immortals (Mephrit, for AP-1 code)
Warriors (?)
Ghost A. (?)

Gauss Tomb Blades (?)
Tesla Tomb Blades (Mephrit, for Talent.f.A strat and AP-1 code)
Destroyers (Nephrekh, for Translo.C strat)
Scarabs (Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Wraiths (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat)
*Acanthrites (?)
*To. Sentinel (Sautekh, for all weapons are assault+no heavy penalty for moving)

Deathmarks (Sautekh, for Meth.D strat./Mephrit, for AP-1 code)
Flayed Ones (Novokh, for reroll hits code./Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Lychguard (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat./Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Praetorians (N/A)
Tr. Stalker (N/A)
Deceiver (N/A)
Night B. (N/A)
*To. Stalker (?)

Spyder (?)
H. Destroyers (?)
A. Barge (Mephrit, for AP-1 code./Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)
Doomsday A. (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)
Monolith (?)
T. C'tan (N/A)
*Tess. Ark (?)
*S. Pylon (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)

Doom S. (Sautekh, for all weapons are assault+no heavy penalty for moving)
Night S. (?)
*Shroud (?)

Obelisk (?)
T. Vault (Mephrit, for Talent.f.A strat and AP-1 code) [can the vault even use codes???]
*G. Pylon (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)

* = FW

What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

 DaBraken wrote:
Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

So i can run 3 outriders and get 6CP with good units or run battalion + outrider and get 7CP. Does +1CP worth getting warriors / immortals? Immortal are cool but can be wiped very easy and need delivery system. TB are just flat better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:

What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Danny76 wrote:
I’m still wondering everyone’s thoughts on getting the best out of Praetorians and Lychguard.
What set up is the one you’d use if you had to.
Which would you avoid for good.

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I’ve got multiple boxes so it seems a waste to not build up anything, even if it doesn’t get used much..

I think the order you've got is correct.

Lychguard with warscythes are amazing... if they can actually reach anything. They carve through everything up to T8 with the +1S stratagem. But they need a delivery system, because they're not making the front lines on a 5" move. For veil or novokh stratagem, even with an overlord granting MWBD and burning a CP to reroll a die if you fail, you can land a 9" charge between 60-70% of the time (depending on how willing you are to reroll), which isn't great as a lynchpin of your army. That's a lot of resources for a 'maybe', plus you're only hitting chaff at that point. Invasion beams look like the best bet, since they can get you exactly where you need them to hit artillery and such, and they're less risky with the new stratagems. Suicide melee assassin is a niche role you might not get to use often, but it's still a role.

Lychguard with shield are in an odd place to me. They're pretty efficient and great at tanking, but suffer from the same issue as scytheguard. For a little more than 1.5x the cost you can get a wraith with a better invuln, 1.5x the wounds and attacks, and 2 damage. Plus wraiths don't need a delivery system... so why not just use wraiths instead?

I would 100% avoid Praetorians. As Grimgold said, without <Dynasty> they're lacking a lot of options and synergies. But even their base stats don't make sense. They try and go half-and-half, but are worse than dedicated units on both sides.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

 DaBraken wrote:
Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

So i can run 3 outriders and get 6CP with good units or run battalion + outrider and get 7CP. Does +1CP worth getting warriors / immortals? Immortal are cool but can be wiped very easy and need delivery system. TB are just flat better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:

What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Agreed, but that’s Mephrit. I was curious as to skoff’s reasoning on the Sautekh build and how MD fit into that.

I really love the Praetorians, especially the fluff. I'm still hoping they will drop the Silent King at (at least) a Primarch level to help out with his own Dynasty with some Triarch specific buffs/codes, With the whole Dark imperium and lots of sh*t going down, I still hope we'll see him somewhere in this edition.

I'm still going to try and get them into a good list. Maybe go all out and have Anrakyr with a cryptek with VoD, Praets and the nightbringer and send them up a flank and veil anrakyr in range and just go to town...(crap I can't because he's not a [dynasty])

Just the Praets and Nightbringer should still be able to handle anything that's send their way. I could still get a cloaktek to follow them around with a nice relic.

If you're supporting that with a few Immortals/DDA's that could work pretty well. But that's for a casual game, you could make everything work for a casual game...
I'm really hard to try to see them in a more tournament list as well, but I just don't see it.

Lychguard could work better there with some of the movement shananigens that you could pull off + a 5++ cryptek could really help the scythguard if you know they'll attract some ap-3 weaponry.

Btw. does anyone know if they've already updated the battlescribe files with the now confirmed Necron 8th ed. Codex rules?

10 Scythguard + Orikan coming out a nightscythe could work playing the strategem. He gives them an all the time invul plus the Resurrection bonus. Would be tricky but you could boost up a CCB and cast MWBD if you planned ahead.

 buddha wrote:
10 Scythguard + Orikan coming out a nightscythe could work playing the strategem. He gives them an all the time invul plus the Resurrection bonus. Would be tricky but you could boost up a CCB and cast MWBD if you planned ahead.

Orikan is a big trap IMO, even with his decent price cut.

First, he is Sautekh. Lychguard would benefit way more from Novokh for re-roll to hit.
Second, the enemy is going to pour everything they have on Scytheguard. A 5++ isn't going to save them. And even then, a 5++ against ranged attack will do practically the same for a unit of suicide-guard.
And last, but more a personal opinion: I find Orikan a bit too unreliable, with him turning super-saiyan often too late/not at all.

 Grimgold wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
I’m still wondering everyone’s thoughts on getting the best out of Praetorians and Lychguard.
What set up is the one you’d use if you had to.
Which would you avoid for good.

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I’ve got multiple boxes so it seems a waste to not build up anything, even if it doesn’t get used much..

Lychguard: with +1 str on the hyper phase sword I think sword and board lychguard are the winner, because you end trading +1 str and +1 damage for a 4++, which seems like a better deal since they are likely to take a lot of fire getting into CC and when units fall back from CC, and the first rule of warfare* is you can't kill anyone if you are dead.

Praetorian: I think this one is a little less clear cut, but my preference would be rod Praetorians, since they will have more punch on the way into CC, and anything that's worth being in CC with will probably fall back every round.

Out of the two lychguard seem more useful right now, since they can benefit from veil of darkness, dynasty codes, are tougher overall, and can get buffed by lords and overlords.

* = there are several first rules of warfare

Survivability on the Lychguard is going to be a must, particularly when there probably won't be too huge a unit with whatever choices are in lists out of these units.
Indeed, Lychguard seem like the choice, particularly when they get all the army perks and such that Praetorians miss out on.

Xachariah wrote:
I think the order you've got is correct.

Lychguard with warscythes are amazing... if they can actually reach anything. They carve through everything up to T8 with the +1S stratagem. But they need a delivery system, because they're not making the front lines on a 5" move. For veil or novokh stratagem, even with an overlord granting MWBD and burning a CP to reroll a die if you fail, you can land a 9" charge between 60-70% of the time (depending on how willing you are to reroll), which isn't great as a lynchpin of your army. That's a lot of resources for a 'maybe', plus you're only hitting chaff at that point. Invasion beams look like the best bet, since they can get you exactly where you need them to hit artillery and such, and they're less risky with the new stratagems. Suicide melee assassin is a niche role you might not get to use often, but it's still a role.

Lychguard with shield are in an odd place to me. They're pretty efficient and great at tanking, but suffer from the same issue as scytheguard. For a little more than 1.5x the cost you can get a wraith with a better invuln, 1.5x the wounds and attacks, and 2 damage. Plus wraiths don't need a delivery system... so why not just use wraiths instead?

I would 100% avoid Praetorians. As Grimgold said, without <Dynasty> they're lacking a lot of options and synergies. But even their base stats don't make sense. They try and go half-and-half, but are worse than dedicated units on both sides.

I guess having the warscythes there but not as a main threat, I might be able to work up the field or await something hitting my lines that needs a heavy hitter which could give them a bit more use.


I'm toying with repeating what I did with the Immortal/Deathmarks box and using warrior bodies to get two things out of this kit (in fact I got all three options with that one, but these guys are a bit more ornate..), so I can perhaps at least get all the Lychguard options done, 15 of each..

For now maybe Praetorians are just a lost cause..

Hm, I just realised something:

The Veil HQ + Zahndrekh + Obyron Lychguard Bomb can't benefit from Novokh, since both Zhandrekh and Obyron are Sautekh Dynasty.

A Novokh warlord /w Veil, who either has re-roll failed charge rolls or the Novokh warlord trait (Death to the false emperor) would be WAY better on them.

 DaBraken wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
so if we would compare TB with practice casters to 2 warriors (~ same cost):
2W || 2W
14 || 5 move
3+ || 4+ save
3 shots AP0 S6 || 2 rapid fire S4 AP-1

I just think that running TB is more powerful than warriors

Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

Which is really only what you'd need Immortals for. Not that Warriors are really BAD but Immortals are just better bang for the buck.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't Kutlakh already the overlord of a dynasty? I don't think you can give him another code.

The code itself has no rules and FW said for other armies to pick the tactic most fitting for the army. Maynarkh is gonna get the same treatment to help save FW time, and seeing as we have freedom until that point I'm spitballing this idea as it came to me over a foofoo coffee beverage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So basically no specific Warlord Trait or relic, but the code rule itself is...gold.

Huh, well that's dumb. You'd think they'd churn out an update to immediately bring Maynarkh in line with everyone else.
I guess FW has gotten lazy then.

Kinda-ish.

However that's why I wanted to bring up the strategy itself. We basically have a choice and I wanted to think outside the box.

sieGermans wrote:
What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Agreed, but that’s Mephrit. I was curious as to skoff’s reasoning on the Sautekh build and how MD fit into that.

I ran the numbers and Deathmarks with +1 to hit were roughly the same effectiveness as Deathmarks with AP-1. The tricky thing is, how do you give Deathmarks +1 to hit if they drop in? That's where the Sautekh strat comes in... but if you go Mephrit then you've got the TfA strat PLUS the AP-1 code you can stack on them.
So basically if you're already running Sautekh and don't want to add a Mephrit minor detachment you can still employ the "Death-Lord" character assassination squad combo and still have it be pretty effective.
But yeah, this combo with Mephrit is the better way to go.

 skoffs wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Agreed, but that’s Mephrit. I was curious as to skoff’s reasoning on the Sautekh build and how MD fit into that.

I ran the numbers and Deathmarks with +1 to hit were roughly the same effectiveness as Deathmarks with AP-1. The tricky thing is, how do you give Deathmarks +1 to hit if they drop in? That's where the Sautekh strat comes in... but if you go Mephrit then you've got the TfA strat PLUS the AP-1 code you can stack on them.
So basically if you're already running Sautekh and don't want to add a Mephrit minor detachment you can still employ the "Death-Lord" character assassination squad combo and still have it be pretty effective.
But yeah, this combo with Mephrit is the better way to go.

2CP +1 to hit? I don't think it worth it.

I take a bit of an issue with deathmarks in their current state. Unless you really want to stack up on them to target a single target, the vault provides for a pretty decent character sniper AS WELL AS being a massive, durable wall and a horde killer.

Currently my only use for deathmarks would be for anti deep strike against glass cannons, i.e. genestealers, since a wall of scarabs will be a good bit more effective at anti deeptriking when you dont stand a good chance of damaging it with deathmarks.

Two squads of Deathmarks, both with +1 to hit AND rerolling 1s to wound from the Veil-Lord, will put out serious hurt against even a Primarch.
Similarly, both Deathmark units getting AP-1 and rerolling 1s, PLUS one unit getting extra hit rolls on 6 to hit, is gonna be vicious.
But again, this is just going to be for cases where you're absolutely desperate to take out a key character in an alpha strike situation.
For general purposes a T.Vault moved up with the Deceiver is probably going to be more useful overall.
...

OR you could do something insane and go all in on your alpha strike: ... it's a work in progress.

Just go with the ultimate character killing alpha strike list. You know you want to...



For when you absolutely have to delete every enemy character on turn 1.

FYI, given Talent for Annihilation’s wording, you can’t use it on ethereal interception, as those shots happen during movement.

sieGermans wrote:
FYI, given Talent for Annihilation’s wording, you can’t use it on ethereal interception, as those shots happen during movement.

Yeah, this combo would be a during-your-own-turn deep strike operation, assumedly same turn as the Lord and G.Immortals Veil up.
Not as cool as the during-your-opponent's-turn variety, but more effective because of the abilities you can stack.
(plus it can still work even if you don't get first turn, something that you can't do as effectively with Deceiver bomb)

Hey Team, I have a tactics problem for the group if this is an appropriate place to raise it.

The leading player in our meta is Imperial Guard, and he is absolutely wrecking face. Leading challenges:

LOS-blocking terrain throughout board, including deployment zones. Behind these, he places Earthshakers and Manticores, effectively rendering them invulnerable to anything but deep strike and flanks. We are pressuring to reduce terrain placement of this nature, but even if reduced in scale, this problem is likely to endure.

Effective deployment zone securement vs. deep strike. With Guard, he has so many units that it is easy to secure his rear area vs. VoD, the new deep strike stratagem, Canoptek Stalkers and Deathmarks.

Effective chaff screens. At the beginning of at least the first turn, IG squads provide bulk chaff in front. This would be less of a nuisance if artillery wasn't effectively spread out across his backzone.

Leman Russes double-shoot abilities. With artillery and slow moving Russes, he has a superb firebase. While this might normally penalize him in objective games, the sheer abundance of units and that he dominates at least his own deployment zone means he remains competitive even though his lists are configured for overwhelming firepower.

Reanimate denying capabilities. Pask/Commanders in Gatling variant Russes + Mortars + Earthshakers just annihilate 20-blob warrior squads or scarabs. No infantry can be really effective against this combo.

In short, with non-LoS artillery and terrain he can be effective while my own artillery cannot see many targets. Leman Russes effectively double tap what they can see at game start, whittling away capabilities so that when infantry or other forces come up against his mass S4/S5 fires, they are less unsupported.

Thoughts on potential counters/ways to mitigate?

Personally i would be tempted to spam quantum shields against him. Try and make as much of his units worthless and target down the low damage models first.

With the buff to doomsday arks, this would be my possible tactic to try and over come overwhelming firepower

Red Acolyte wrote:
Hey Team, I have a tactics problem for the group if this is an appropriate place to raise it.

[...]

Thoughts on potential counters/ways to mitigate?

First of all, who provides the table and what mission types do you play? It feels a bit like either mission and/or table favor him.
Against such amount of firepower threat overload or play the mission are the ways I would take.
For me as tyranid main, its not that hard most of the time. If he doesnt know which target to kill first because everything is kind of a threat he will stumble. If you bring him only few units a time, he kills them as they popp up.

With necrons you have to think a bit more. You need units, which can pass the screens and engage the tanks. Not necessarily to kill them, but to stop them shooting and force movement.
At the same time you have to give him other targets to deal with.
Wraiths, scarabs in large numbers, tomb blades, and some deepstriking stuff like flayed ones, destroyers, or deathmarks should do it.
Wraiths and scarabs jump over screens and go for tanks, flayed one, deathmarks, tomb blades and destroyers shoot from close, or try cc.
Then you need punch to threat him more. DDA aggressively played could do some work, shooting big gun at tanks and hard targets, and flayer arrays at screens. S3-5 fire doens not hurt that much, and big stuff drops to quantum shield.

This would be an idea, how it could work.

If the player is hiding behind LoS blocking terrain but is foolish enough to leave you room to deep strike in a unit - try out the Tomb Sentinel. That cannon is similarly effective to a DDA. You'd have to go Sautekh to make it ideal, which is fine because they are likely going to be a core option for the warlord trait anyhow.

Doomsday Arks are probably pretty good at punishing Guard Leman Russes I think. Not sure what to do about the Artillery though.

Like with any Necron list you should have a unit of 6 Destroyers Deep Striking with the Nephrek Stratagem. They have a good chance of taking out a tank in one turn with extermination protocols. DDAs are also good. You could go for warriors and/or tesla Immortals also Deep striking in with the destroyers to shoot his screens. Tomb blades are -1 to hit which is nasty for guard.

I'd recommend trying a list that only deploys QS vehicles on the board and then deep strikes Destroyers and infantry. That should help protect against his T1 shooting if you go second. The QS strat should help minimize losses on turn 1.

Necron salad is what I would take. Doomsday arks with the move and heavy don't count as movement, probably 2. Aim for the russes, the ones that can kill your infantry super easily.

For the chaff annihilation barges and immortals with tessela, really anything with tessela. Not sure what codes to give them, but tessela should help with the chaff.

Deep striking destroyers will help a lot as well, I think they will become a staple of our competitive lists.

Once you punch a hole in his lines then go for the artillery.

Target priority will be important, so will getting first turn. But if you don't have first turn it's not that bad. I would run deceiver for this issue, and a lord or cryptech with the veil for maximum redeployment options based off of what happens for rolling for first turn.

Good luck, and if the tables are like you say and the corners always have maximum Los blocking terrain I would suggest saying you don't agree to the way the table is set up and ask to move the Los terrain into the corner so you can't deploy behind it.

A bit of topic regarding the IG, but.... have you guys thought on how to deal with stuff like Aspex Scan/Forwarning with a Destroyer bomb?
I'm sure those Dark Reapers near a Farseer, or Hellblasters holding Guilliman's hand would LOVE it if our most potent unit dropped right in front of their guns.....

Red Acolyte wrote:
Hey Team, I have a tactics problem for the group if this is an appropriate place to raise it.

The leading player in our meta is Imperial Guard, and he is absolutely wrecking face. Leading challenges:

LOS-blocking terrain throughout board, including deployment zones. Behind these, he places Earthshakers and Manticores, effectively rendering them invulnerable to anything but deep strike and flanks. We are pressuring to reduce terrain placement of this nature, but even if reduced in scale, this problem is likely to endure.

Effective deployment zone securement vs. deep strike. With Guard, he has so many units that it is easy to secure his rear area vs. VoD, the new deep strike stratagem, Canoptek Stalkers and Deathmarks.

Effective chaff screens. At the beginning of at least the first turn, IG squads provide bulk chaff in front. This would be less of a nuisance if artillery wasn't effectively spread out across his backzone.

Leman Russes double-shoot abilities. With artillery and slow moving Russes, he has a superb firebase. While this might normally penalize him in objective games, the sheer abundance of units and that he dominates at least his own deployment zone means he remains competitive even though his lists are configured for overwhelming firepower.

Reanimate denying capabilities. Pask/Commanders in Gatling variant Russes + Mortars + Earthshakers just annihilate 20-blob warrior squads or scarabs. No infantry can be really effective against this combo.

In short, with non-LoS artillery and terrain he can be effective while my own artillery cannot see many targets. Leman Russes effectively double tap what they can see at game start, whittling away capabilities so that when infantry or other forces come up against his mass S4/S5 fires, they are less unsupported.

Thoughts on potential counters/ways to mitigate?

First, use the rule book: the rules for placing terrain offer a mechanism for balance. Number of terrain piece set are 1-2 pieces per 2’ x 2’; so average of 9, but no more than 12 terrain features. Each are placed by alternating players at the start of the game. All terrain used is by agreement between the players. A friendly way to do this is for each player to offer a piece for veto, alternating between them, until the agreed maximum number is reached or until only the minimum remaining number of pieces are the only ones left to choose from.

Secondarily, only his non-LoS guns can fire from cover and have the potential of remaining totally invisible to return fire. Otherwise, make sure to enforce the “totally within and more than 75% obscured” rule for cover for vehicles.

In terms of defined strategies for building and playing:

1. Focus on units with high VoF for toughness 3. Tesla Immortals are useful for this, Warriors, and the new C’Tan fall of stars power. Make sure you mathcraft out his average number of total wounds in a unit, and how many shots you need to take to kill that many. Consider using the new Deepstrike Stratagem to keep these chafe-clearing forces safe on first turn to avoid alpha strike—they would not be back line deep striking: in fact they’ll probably just be deep no-man’s land or your own deployment zone.
2. Focus on units with efficient AV. At this stage, DDA is looking best for this role. It will also be a useful gunboat for chaffe clearing later in the game or a ton key points.

Ignore cute tricks like the deceiver bomb stuff or the mass-TV shenanigans. You need consistency here. Based on your description, I have assumed that he is correctly screening from any Veil tricks.

When taking your DDA shots, focus on one target at a time, and only focus targets you reasonably expect to kill in one round of shooting. Again, mathcraft it out. One DDA is expected to yield: 3.5 shots, only 2.3 hits, only 1.6 wounds, and thereby 5.4 damage. Don’t aim that at the tank with 14 or 18 wounds unless he has 2-3 additional DDAs assisting. If you can’t field as many DDAs as you need in order to reliably give them useful targets, then ignore them altogether (if List tailoring).

Okay, for unit grading, this is what I've got for now- Obviously a work in progress.
If anything should be changed please comment with why you think it deserves a specific grade (will be including reasons when it gets added to the top post).

Doctoralex wrote:
A bit of topic regarding the IG, but.... have you guys thought on how to deal with stuff like Aspex Scan/Forwarning with a Destroyer bomb?
I'm sure those Dark Reapers near a Farseer, or Hellblasters holding Guilliman's hand would LOVE it if our most potent unit dropped right in front of their guns.....

I think it's only forwarning that's difficult to avoid. Aren't other similar strats only 12" range?

Against forwarning you would have to try and land behind LOS blocking terrain (or bring your own- monolith!)


Edit: I don't think the grading system is going to work very well due to the differences dynasties can make to how effective certain units are.

Also I think you need to be careful giving out A's. Deep striking Destroyers are an A. Nothing else in the book is on their level so they should be the only A. (maybe the T Vault is up there but I don't think so).

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think the grading system is going to work very well due to the differences dynasties can make to how effective certain units are.

Yeah, it's probably going to be an "in general these units are ___" type of guide, going into further dynastic tactics later.
(all stuff being added to the top post for new players who come looking)

Doctoralex wrote:
A bit of topic regarding the IG, but.... have you guys thought on how to deal with stuff like Aspex Scan/Forwarning with a Destroyer bomb?
I'm sure those Dark Reapers near a Farseer, or Hellblasters holding Guilliman's hand would LOVE it if our most potent unit dropped right in front of their guns.....

Auspex is only a 12" range wasn't it? Destroyers have enough legroom for avoiding that.

I'd have to look at Forewarning again though.