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Not gone through all the posts in detail, but I think the grading up front looks pretty reasonable. I haven't tested everything yet, but from theory looking at it and the bit of playtesting I have done, things look about right.

A few specific thoughts:

Imotekh - expensive, but the storm is actually potentially really useful with high range / no LoS needed. Decent threat vs an army that stays tight, or anything with elite units on the board that you need to deal with (e.g. reapers). Need to play him a few more times but so far so good. He sits well with 3x Sautekh DDAs or similar.

I haven't played warriors at all yet, but tesla immortals have been performing pretty solidly as expected. I've been running as mephrit and advancing early on + hugging cover to keep a 2+ save. When they get into position with MWBD, can kick out some huge damage. I wouldn't put them at an A though as they aren't anything like the power level of destros IMO, but a solid B.

As expected - our fast choices are great now.

TBs are very good - fast, reasonably tough and reasonably killy. I've been running 6 as that's all the models I have atm, but expect to increase this to at least one squad of 9. Happy as an A.

Destroyers with strat are straight up brutal - huge damage output. Infantry key word too so very easy to keep them in cover (i.e. just have to be touching some cover, not obscured). Unit of 6 is hard to shift, and with a cloaktek nearby there's a good chance of getting some back. I assumed they would always get focussed down in one turn, but so far I've found people have actually struggled to get rid of them all in one turn. Definitely an A (so far, best unit in the codex for me).

Scarabs do what scarabs do. Still a great cheap/fast screen. Not as good as some of the cheap bodies other armies get, but B feels fine.

Wraiths - I actually rank these worse than B. They are just as hard to kill as they used to be, but now much more expensive. Realistically there's a good chance all they will do is eat some chaff before getting shot off. I don't find the improved damage output makes up for the increase in points, so I've actually stopped running them now. Would probably put them down at a C.

I'm yet to play with any elites so can't really comment. I'm very surprised to see the deceiver at an A though - what's the thinking on this? Redeploy is nice, but situational / easily countered by a lot of armies with scout moves.

DDA is fantastic. It's actually a credible threat now and much more reliable. Worth running multiple IMO. Perfect unit to park at the back, make use of one of our few long range options + screen deployment vs DS (it's got a huge footprint so can cover a lot of space with it's 9" bubble). Once it's hit it's priority targets, if it is still alive then it can start pushing up to make use of the flayer arrays (/use these when someone gets in your face). As sautekh it can still kick out solid damage from the heavy weapon when moving (and even advancing) upfield. As Mephrit, it's flayers get brutal up close. As always - tough to kill with 14w / QS (+the QS strat to help out). Definitely an A - one of the best choices in the codex.

danzin0 wrote:
Not gone through all the posts in detail, but I think the grading up front looks pretty reasonable. I haven't tested everything yet, but from theory looking at it and the bit of playtesting I have done, things look about right.

A few specific thoughts:

Imotekh - expensive, but the storm is actually potentially really useful with high range / no LoS needed. Decent threat vs an army that stays tight, or anything with elite units on the board that you need to deal with (e.g. reapers). Need to play him a few more times but so far so good. He sits well with 3x Sautekh DDAs or similar.

I haven't played warriors at all yet, but tesla immortals have been performing pretty solidly as expected. I've been running as mephrit and advancing early on + hugging cover to keep a 2+ save. When they get into position with MWBD, can kick out some huge damage. I wouldn't put them at an A though as they aren't anything like the power level of destros IMO, but a solid B.

As expected - our fast choices are great now.

TBs are very good - fast, reasonably tough and reasonably killy. I've been running 6 as that's all the models I have atm, but expect to increase this to at least one squad of 9. Happy as an A.

Destroyers with strat are straight up brutal - huge damage output. Infantry key word too so very easy to keep them in cover (i.e. just have to be touching some cover, not obscured). Unit of 6 is hard to shift, and with a cloaktek nearby there's a good chance of getting some back. I assumed they would always get focussed down in one turn, but so far I've found people have actually struggled to get rid of them all in one turn. Definitely an A (so far, best unit in the codex for me).

Scarabs do what scarabs do. Still a great cheap/fast screen. Not as good as some of the cheap bodies other armies get, but B feels fine.

Wraiths - I actually rank these worse than B. They are just as hard to kill as they used to be, but now much more expensive. Realistically there's a good chance all they will do is eat some chaff before getting shot off. I don't find the improved damage output makes up for the increase in points, so I've actually stopped running them now. Would probably put them down at a C.

I'm yet to play with any elites so can't really comment. I'm very surprised to see the deceiver at an A though - what's the thinking on this? Redeploy is nice, but situational / easily countered by a lot of armies with scout moves.

DDA is fantastic. It's actually a credible threat now and much more reliable. Worth running multiple IMO. Perfect unit to park at the back, make use of one of our few long range options + screen deployment vs DS (it's got a huge footprint so can cover a lot of space with it's 9" bubble). Once it's hit it's priority targets, if it is still alive then it can start pushing up to make use of the flayer arrays (/use these when someone gets in your face). As sautekh it can still kick out solid damage from the heavy weapon when moving (and even advancing) upfield. As Mephrit, it's flayers get brutal up close. As always - tough to kill with 14w / QS (+the QS strat to help out). Definitely an A - one of the best choices in the codex.

The thing about wraiths now is they won't get bogged down fighting chaff as they can leave combat, shoot and charge again, so in the right position they can make could character assassins due to ignore terrain and models , and due to high strength they can harass tougher multi wound models.

Also a question, considering wraiths ignore models can they charge (not just move in the movement phase) through screens as I understand they have to end there charge move within an inch of target but what about if they come within an inch whilst moving?

Am sad to see wraiths go up so much, though they are amazing bullet magnets still, and the increased threat range and extra damage. It just enforces how much they need to die for the opponent. So think one unit to soak up a armys alpha strikes isnt too bad, though never use more than one unit compared to before

Now that Vault (one of the my fav models in 40k) is actuall OK-good, I wanna start necrons. Talk me out of it :p

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Now that Vault (one of the my fav models in 40k) is actuall OK-good, I wanna start necrons. Talk me out of it :p

Dont know how. I liked it so much i bought a second one.

Fffffffffffffffjuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Help. I have 500+ unpainted models. I got a 5k pts ork army (new from gw) in 2 months. :(

Inevitableq wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:

Inevitableq wrote:

The first list performed better over all. The vault took some hits getting in range but still well outperformed its points.

I cant see how Vault can do more damage than its cost. Could you explain what he managed to destroy?

In the first list. First turn it took out a unit of gaunts with the tesla shots and degraded a flyrant with antimatter meteor and cosmic fire(it took a few hits from other fire as well). Second turn took burned 1 cp to use top profile. Killed 12 genestealers on seismic assualt. 2 more from sky of falling stars along with more wounds on flyrant and one hive guard. Cosmic fire got 3 more stealers. 2 wounds on malanthrope 2 wounds on flyrant 3 wounds on nuero thrope 1 dead hive guard 3 wounds each on two exocrine. Burned one cp to fire a 4th c'Tan power rolled cosmic fire again. Finished off the neurothrope 2 more wounds on malanthrope 3 more each on exocrines putting them at half. Another dead hive guard. Couple more wounds on flyrant. Then shooting finished off gene stealers. On his turn he killed it in shooting phase it blew up. Rolled a 6. Killed both exos the flyrant the malanthrope 2 more hive guard.

The deciever list performed similarly on the powers but i used several times arrow to get rid of hive guard as i went first. And the tesla did most of the work on the gene stealers.

Both games were against tyranids and fairly similar gun battery style lists.

So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.

So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.

then bring the Deceiver so you can Deceiver bomb 12" away from your enemy models then just move it into position if your going 1st or place it defensively if going 2nd. Also, if you think it's movement is too slow then just advance it. You will have a -1 on your Tesla spheres but you can still use your C'tan powers. I can easily see the Vault getting at least it's points back in most games it will be used in. It will have more affect on horde type armies though rather then elite-style armies.

He didnt advance into me i advanced into him. His gun line stayed where it started. And yes in the first game it was a better than average series of rolls. The second list where i used the deciever to get across the board. I didnt roll nearly as well on powers in that game but it stuck around till turn 4 and still put out a crippling amount of wounds. I agree it will almost always do better against large size units but with different power choices it will do work against elites as well. Times arrow is amazing against elites.

hvg3akaek wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Hmm, for real?
It's not a scenario that's ever come up for me before.
For reference, where does it talk about that part in the rulebook?

Can't check right now but I think it's in the matched play section where it limits stuff like psychic powers.

Edit: pg 214

But isn't that part "suggested rules" for "organised events"? Anything that's not an organised event, or any event that doesn't want to follow those rules, could have more than 4 detachments. (and the 4 detachment limit is only for 2,001-3,000 armies, also. It's less for a limit of 2k).

Well yeah but I am under the impression that everyone plays 2k games with 3 detachments on a 6' x 4' board. If we ignore that then the entire tactics section of this forum probably needs revising. We can then play with 10 Tau Commanders on a 7' x 1' board.

 Odrankt wrote:

So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.

then bring the Deceiver so you can Deceiver bomb 12" away from your enemy models then just move it into position if your going 1st or place it defensively if going 2nd. Also, if you think it's movement is too slow then just advance it. You will have a -1 on your Tesla spheres but you can still use your C'tan powers. I can easily see the Vault getting at least it's points back in most games it will be used in. It will have more affect on horde type armies though rather then elite-style armies.

I dunno. It slings out a lot of mortal wounds too, potentially. That is good for dealing with elite armies too.

Also, here is a ....weird list. Trying to find a way to max out on the in-your-face possibilities. But I feel like my 156pt in Scarabs might be a waste and I don't have a Battalion, so I am going in with a paltry 5CP. But with Hyperlogical Strategist, it should offset it a bit (in theory).

So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.

Dude.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.

Dude.

...wait, did you follow me here from the AdMech tactica?!

The thing about wraiths now is they won't get bogged down fighting chaff as they can leave combat, shoot and charge again, so in the right position they can make could character assassins due to ignore terrain and models , and due to high strength they can harass tougher multi wound models.

Also a question, considering wraiths ignore models can they charge (not just move in the movement phase) through screens as I understand they have to end there charge move within an inch of target but what about if they come within an inch whilst moving?

They can leave combat yes, but so can whatever you touched... and then you will proceed to get shot to hell. I'm not suggesting they are useless by any stretch - they do hit hard now and situationally could do some work, but in general I'd expect most competitive players to effectively screen them out to the point they aren't much use and they will still easily die in one turn to focussed fire. Essentially what they do is buy you perhaps one turn of having other stuff (destros) untouched, but they did this before at much lower point cost. If it's a choice between 6 wraiths and 6 destros now, I don't see any comparison really.

Maybe one use is as a counter assault unit, but feels like a point sink in a competitive list where they will often serve little purpose.

Edit: it is possible sometimes to surround whatever you get into so they can't fall back, which is great. This is easier said then done though as wraiths will likely hit hard enough to kill a few models -> opponent will just pick up the surrounded models.

And yes, no reason they can't hop over screens.

So I'm looking to start Necrons with 2 Forgebane boxes and a SC and what I'm seeing is that everything in Forgebane is a B roughly. This is making me sad

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I wanna start necrons. Talk me out of it :p

Do eet.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.

Dude.

Good, lets compare to mortarion. With 18 atacks he hits 17.5, wounds 17 - thats 11 dead marines per fight phase. While Vault hits 13 times, wounds 9, kills 3 marines. I can see Vault do about 10 mortals with powers, which requires 3 turns to return its points.

Supported by warptime Mortarion is very mobile, but often dies turn 1 from whole army shooting. Vault with same durability (lower if Mortarion under miasma) should perform at same level.

I really hope that Vault is competitive piece. I just didnt see this ATM. Please tell me what its targets and whats its role in army so i can trust you and go write a list with it)))

-Sentinel- wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.

Dude.

Good, lets compare to mortarion. With 18 atacks he hits 17.5, wounds 17 - thats 11 dead marines per fight phase. While Vault hits 13 times, wounds 9, kills 3 marines. I can see Vault do about 10 mortals with powers, which requires 3 turns to return its points.

Supported by warptime Mortarion is very mobile, but often dies turn 1 from whole army shooting. Vault with same durability (lower if Mortarion under miasma) should perform at same level.

I really hope that Vault is competitive piece. I just didnt see this ATM. Please tell me what its targets and whats its role in army so i can trust you and go write a list with it)))

Its better against hordes than elites but ot can handle those as well. 20 str7 tesla shots will put out some hurt on anything that isnt -1 or more to hit. The powers you will need to tailor to your opponents. Pretty much all of them have a good use. Ive tried it worked well enough i bought a second one. Most i can say is proxy one and test it out.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault
[...]
Does more mortal wounds with the pulse.

...
Are you talking about the Obelisk's pulse?

I'm really liking Warriors with Mephrit.
Veil of darkness DS within 12" to guarantee rapid fire.

20 warriors 40 Shots at rapid fire with -2 (Merphrit with -1 AP); hitting on 3+ (give +1 strat hitting on 2+)
33 hits, 16.667 wounds vs T4 at -2 ap; 11 wounds,
22 Wounds on T3, -2 AP, thats no saves for lots of chaff hordes

 skoffs wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault
[...]
Does more mortal wounds with the pulse.

...
Are you talking about the Obelisk's pulse?

I'm talking about the Cosmic fire, which is the same as Morty's pulse but better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Sentinel- wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.

Dude.

Good, lets compare to mortarion. With 18 atacks he hits 17.5, wounds 17 - thats 11 dead marines per fight phase. While Vault hits 13 times, wounds 9, kills 3 marines. I can see Vault do about 10 mortals with powers, which requires 3 turns to return its points.

Supported by warptime Mortarion is very mobile, but often dies turn 1 from whole army shooting. Vault with same durability (lower if Mortarion under miasma) should perform at same level.

I really hope that Vault is competitive piece. I just didnt see this ATM. Please tell me what its targets and whats its role in army so i can trust you and go write a list with it)))

Since when are space marines horde? I'm talking about actual horde units: cultists, daemons, etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.

Dude.

...wait, did you follow me here from the AdMech tactica?!

Haha, I just saw the vault finally being good and came here

Attempt at Necron Brigade

Spoiler:

3x Cheap Lord (228)
6x5 Immortal (510)
1x6 Wraith (330)
2x3 Scarab (78)
3x5 Deathmark (285)
3x3 Heavy Destroyer (513)
Comes to 1944pts with some points to change up HQs. 12 CP but not quite a competitive play list

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Haha, I just saw the vault finally being good and came here

Go fig. I guess we both just love robots!

Seriously though, I need even a flimsy excuse to play one just so I can paint it up. It is a ridiculous centerpiece model.

I am just struggling to piece together a list I like with it and Deceiver. Not as easy as I had hoped.

Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault

Did we ever determine whether the Vault could benefit from Dynasty Codes and Strats?

It wouldn't matter for that list because SH Auxiliary detachments definitely do not get code benefits. I think the Vault is intended to benefit from codes if you file it into a supreme command or superheay detachment but it isn't entirely clear, hopefully GW addresses it in the FAQ.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496

It's pretty solid, but I think it might be too elite. Once the Warriors are gone (and there's no Invuln for them, so that's quite easy), it's going to be really, really hard to score objectives because everything else is a single Character. Depends on opponent and positioning, of course.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496

Meh. Not sure I like that list. You are throwing the Vault out there on its lonesome and what? Slogging everything else?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496

Meh. Not sure I like that list. You are throwing the Vault out there on its lonesome and what? Slogging everything else?

Deceiver and Veil are both in the list. You can get on the board quite easily.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496

You dont need such priced hq for just 3 warriors blob. Two overlord but no good MVBD target. Dropp Anrakyr. Take more scarabs or warriors. Think about immo.