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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Cataphractii Terminators already exist, and they're already bad, 4++ or no.
They have worse weapon options and are also fugly. Plus - we know they need a point drop too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Backspacehacker wrote: Honestly not sure why Terminators are not WS/BS 2+ considering they are lore wise the veterans of a chapter. They should be basically sternguard but in better armor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: I'm not sure I see any issue with lightning claws as they are now, actually. 16 attacks from 5 actually durable guys seems okay to me. Math wise, they should wipe a 5 man Maine squad with no outside rerolls.
Lightning claws are not really that bad, They are decent, the problem with them is their delivery system. Terminators are slow as snot, and you have around a 40% chance of making a 9" charge to get into combat with them. And when you do, your still only swinging at S4, which is great for killing hordes, but lets be honest, there are a lot better and cheaper ways to clear hordes that are more useful. For example, a Dakka pred can do it from range.
Yeah I agree, but every unit doesn't have to be good at everything, the options they have should just be fairly priced for what they do. And, for assault termies, you really want a way to reroll that charge, I think, a SM lib being the most obvious way to make it happen.
That being said, 21 attacks would probably be fine too. It would kill 7 Marines, which seems okay too.
In fact, most Marine units could have 5 more attacks added and feel just fine.
Marines in general took a sizable hit in melee when 8th took away the blanket +1 attack for charging, and don't have any assault units outside the BA or SW that are really any good at out putting more than 2 or 3 attacks per model. Marines have always relied on mainly shooting, but it doesn't help things much that their assault power went down 33-50% for most units.
You could give everything in the book the "fights twice" rule Berzerkers have and Berzerkers would still be better melee units for their points than anything in the book. It's obscene.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Cataphractii Terminators already exist, and they're already bad, 4++ or no.
They have worse weapon options and are also fugly. Plus - we know they need a point drop too.
Fugly? Are you havin' a giraffe m8?
I much prefer the standard tactical terminator. I don't like the 30k look on most anything though so there is that.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
JNAProductions wrote: So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?
Yes bringing no heavy weapons and spamming cheap low ap and damage wounds is skew.
So what do I bring as Nurgle Daemons? GUO have AP, but they suck. BEasts of Nurgle have no AP. There are no dedicated Nurgle Heavy Support options. The only good option with AP are Daemon Princes.
What about the Plagueburst Crawler?
Nurgle Daemons. That's Deathguard.
And I should not have to look outside my faction to have a chance of killing Terminators. I'm fine if they're tough. I'm fine with my list having good and bad match-ups. But there should not be a model that literally only 3 models in my army can even potentially damage.
Would you tell a Salamanders player that they HAVE to look outside their faction to play against certain models? What about armies like Tau or Crons, who CANNOT ally? Do they just play a new faction?
For reference, Epidemius has 4 S5 AP-3 rerolling wounds attacks. Poxbringer has the same statline with 3 attacks. Spoilpox Scrivener has 3 attacks at S5 AP-1 rerolling wound rolls of 1. If all three charge a squad of Terminators with 1+ armor saves, they deal...
1.48 from Epidemius, 1.11 from Poxbringer, and .32 from the Scrivener. Total of 2.91 damage. Enough to kill a Terminator and a half.
In return, the Terminators deal about .59 points of damage per model on the backswing.
Edit: Yeah, a Soulgrinder is available to all Daemonic factions. But it's honestly not especially good either, and I want to keep the Nurgle theme.
Also, why would anyone want a model that's literally unkillable by anything without an AP value? I don't mind a 1+ save, just so long as they obey the "1s always fail" rule.
Taking CSM is not outside your faction. Also Salamanders are not a skew list so no they should be able to deal with most things. However if I played all 300 of my gaunts I would not expect to be able to just shot anything off the table with them by just sheer weight of dice witch you seem to expect to work for some reason with your daemons list due to a limited amount of models because your playing a small sub faction of chaos as a whole.
Desubot wrote: Could of sworn Terminators sternguard and vanguards are all the same guys. they all have the crux terminatus.
They are all veterans, and may wear the symbol on their power armour, but only when the actual Crux Terminatus is embedded in Terminator Armour does it offer the 5+ invuln save. Compared to Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans, Terminators also have improved W and Sv...
xeen wrote: The Terminator problem is GW not understanding that what Terminaors get to be more expensive than say a normal marine is all universally weaker in this edition. 5+ invul? Only matters against -4 or higher AP weapons. 2 wounds? There is so much 2D or d3D in the game right now 2 wounds is meaningless. 2+ save? Same issue of weight of fire as earlier editions (you will roll a 1 sooner or later) but also you don't get the 2+ save against anything but small arms due to the modifiers. Realistically terminators should be about 23 points before upgrades, and I think even at that price they still probably need either one more wound or -1 to the D suffered to a minimum of 1 rule. Even with the above changes I don't think they would become a top tier unit as 8th edition doesn't really reward defense due to modifiers and mortal wounds.
23 + 13 for the fist + 2 for the cbolter is 38 pts. So, going from 40 to 38 will make termies good?
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
It's the MEQ. Until that's actually fixed, Terminators won't be worth it. They look incredibly cool. But, they just aren't worth it. Custodes being the one true exception with 3 wounds (even on their weakest models) and a 2+ save across the board.
SG
40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers
*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. ***
Assault Centurions are nearly as many points as Devs.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
Well its punishment for 7th
I can only imagine. A base Centurion and base Dreadnought are about the same cost.
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
I was talking about Assault Centurions actually. They're expensive but not horrible.
Also saying that those units will due faster is totally false in many ways. Aggressors are totally a Glass cannon, but they're still 36 points each.
Are 10 Aggressors less durable than a single Land Raider? Beats me, but that's definitely more shots.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
Well its punishment for 7th
I can only imagine. A base Centurion and base Dreadnought are about the same cost.
I think they added instead of subtracted from the index to codex. They actually became more expensive in the coedex
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
I was talking about Assault Centurions actually. They're expensive but not horrible.
Also saying that those units will due faster is totally false in many ways. Aggressors are totally a Glass cannon, but they're still 36 points each.
Are 10 Aggressors less durable than a single Land Raider? Beats me, but that's definitely more shots.
SM have tons of reliable options. Having units that do a better job doesn't mean that the crusader is garbage. It reminds me of the comparison between wave serpents and razorbacks when SM players were arguing that the razorback is not that good because the serpent is better
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 06:53:51
Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.
The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.
The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.
The Crusader isn't killy against hordes BECAUSE of its cost.
Look at the price of Centurions and Aggressors and I want you to make that statement again and mean it. Because it's actually false.
Centurions and Aggressors will die waaaaaay faster. I know it's expected that Land Raiders will die, but Cents and Aggressors are downright flimsy for their cost.
Also, have you looked at the price of Cents? It's crazypants.
I was talking about Assault Centurions actually. They're expensive but not horrible.
Also saying that those units will due faster is totally false in many ways. Aggressors are totally a Glass cannon, but they're still 36 points each.
Are 10 Aggressors less durable than a single Land Raider? Beats me, but that's definitely more shots.
SM have tons of reliable options. Having units that do a better job doesn't mean that the crusader is garbage. It reminds me of the comparison between wave serpents and razorbacks when SM players were arguing that the razorback is not that good because the serpent is better
Any Razorback without the Assault Cannon IS mediocre though.
And are you seriously arguing that 12 S6 AP-1 and then 12-24 S4 shots is worth 300+ points?
It IS pretty ignorable for that price unless you try and make use of everything it does, which means transportation, and then you end up being in range for everyone to kill the Land Raider as they really aren't tough, and then your cargo is stranded and going to die or not make it over. Granted you had to be in that range anyway to actually use the hurricane Bolters so...
Compare that to 10 Aggressors. Each individual one is an average of 9 shots. That's literally 90 shots on average, with it being 70 at the worst.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The Land Raider chassis is nigh-impervious to small arms, that's its value if you can leverage it. For example the 90 Aggressor shots do (.666 x .333 x .333 x 90) 6.64 wounds to Aggressors, but only manage (.666 x .17 x .17 x 90) 1.7 on a Land Raider.
The LRC averages (.666 x .333 x .333 x 24 +(.666 x .666 x .5 x 12)) 4.43 against the Aggressors, not including the extra Multimelta and Storm Bolter you might be able to stick on there to equal the cost of 10 Aggressors (Codex not on me) It's more mobile, blocks LOS and can carry a bunch of dudes too. So if you're in the sort of MEQ vs. GEQ scenario where the sheer number of Lasguns are keeping you down, the LRC looks pretty useful not only for killing, but for protecting models in and behind it.
I think what I've noticed is that i don't actually see a whole lot of small arms no ap fire now on 8th edition. Haven't seen a guardsman focused army since the conscripts nerf (mainly tanks and heavy weapons) or even marines (who at min take primaris with -1ap). Now that I really think about it, I think I'm the only marines player at my club that plays with normal tactical squads. The game and the players have focused of efficiency so much there aren't many standard lists anymore on battle reports or clubs. So my Terminators have always come across at least -1 ap and I tend to attract 2s with my rolling. Tbh, Orks are the only army with standard 0ap I see a lot and that's likely because they don't have much of it. Hell, my terminators did get charged by 30boyz and survived with only 1 death so I kinda see what people are getting at.
I kinda feel this just doesn't seem right.... how strong super thick vechiles with 3+ saves are effected in the same way as normal tact marines. Almost like there needs to be some defence against low AP weapons on tough vechiles so you don't just eventually die to spam fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 23:22:07
The unwieldy rule needs to go in my opinion as it is a throwback to anti SM. A SM can fire a lascannon across the battlefield and pinpoint the only weak point on a closing Wraithknight but somehow a terminator cannot punch an enemy right up in his face? Ridiculous.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Imo a high prevalence of -1AP does a little to close the gap durability-wise, but Aggressors are going to suffer heavily in that environment.
My own experience: My Tyranid Warriors army can spit 216 S5 AP-1 shots, but it struggles against multiple heavy vehicles, while something like Aggressors would be swept away.
Important to note that Slayer will get a boost with Aggressors for playing Raptors(successor), while the LR would get no such bonus. So that helps. Aggressors just look too fragile for me to consider, esp in metas with lots of Plasma. Not that I'll be taking Land Raiders often or anything, but that T8 2+ can put up some impressive defensive numbers.
Insectum7 wrote: The Land Raider chassis is nigh-impervious to small arms, that's its value if you can leverage it. For example the 90 Aggressor shots do (.666 x .333 x .333 x 90) 6.64 wounds to Aggressors, but only manage (.666 x .17 x .17 x 90) 1.7 on a Land Raider.
The LRC averages (.666 x .333 x .333 x 24 +(.666 x .666 x .5 x 12)) 4.43 against the Aggressors, not including the extra Multimelta and Storm Bolter you might be able to stick on there to equal the cost of 10 Aggressors (Codex not on me) It's more mobile, blocks LOS and can carry a bunch of dudes too. So if you're in the sort of MEQ vs. GEQ scenario where the sheer number of Lasguns are keeping you down, the LRC looks pretty useful not only for killing, but for protecting models in and behind it.
It really isn't much much mobile because Aggressors can actually advance and still shoot with no penalty (so they basically have an additional 3.5" of movement if you want it).
Then if they don't move they can fire twice. Obviously against a Land Raider they don't do well, but did you look at the cost of Aggressors firing at other Aggressors compared to the Land Raider?
I already said they're a glass cannon, but it's still 20 wounds. Also, the Land Raider isn't big enough to block anything important (and doesn't have initial speed to anyway) and is helpless if anyone decides to close in.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The 10 aggressors can't transport a blob of blood claws plus characters or wulfen plus characters though. Both units need a transport, maybe not wulfen because one unit can outflank but if you want more than a unit you should give them a transport.
A LR crusader or the stormwolf (even better IMHO) always did good for me when I also brought the ass can razorbacks. And I don't even have the guilliman re-rolls.
The debate is a bit out of topic though since LR are not good to carry terminators. In fact terminators don't need a transport as they can deepstrike. To be hones their deepstriking thing is quite silly IMHO, and too many units can deepstrike for free which is irritating. I'd cut their deep strike ability forcing them to buy a transport or to pay some sort of stratagem to deepstrike but I'd also give them +1A, +1WS, +1BS. Maybe I'd also remove the -1 to hit.
Blackie wrote: The 10 aggressors can't transport a blob of blood claws plus characters or wulfen plus characters though. Both units need a transport, maybe not wulfen because one unit can outflank but if you want more than a unit you should give them a transport.
A LR crusader or the stormwolf (even better IMHO) always did good for me when I also brought the ass can razorbacks. And I don't even have the guilliman re-rolls.
The debate is a bit out of topic though since LR are not good to carry terminators. In fact terminators don't need a transport as they can deepstrike. To be hones their deepstriking thing is quite silly IMHO, and too many units can deepstrike for free which is irritating. I'd cut their deep strike ability forcing them to buy a transport or to pay some sort of stratagem to deepstrike but I'd also give them +1A, +1WS, +1BS. Maybe I'd also remove the -1 to hit.
Uh that's because the Aggressors wouldn't NEED to do that. If you need those things transported, use one of the flying transports.
With the Aggressors you'd have more shots than melee attacks from the Blood Claws, too. I really don't see the point of this post. You even pointed out the Flyer was better.
Also saying that those units will due faster is totally false in many ways.
And I don't see how you're coming to that conclusion. Aggressors do die pretty quick in comparison.
An LRC can block LOS to Aggressors, just as an example Boom, Tactics! Synergy! Take that naysayers.
They die more quickly to small arms but that's it. Also something about using cover which you make mention of.
Also that would mean Aggressors wouldn't be shooting unless you're just moving the Land Raider to block them every turn. If you wanted to block LoS, wouldn't a Pod make more sense or a Rhino? That's a MUCH cheaper investment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/06 07:22:38
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Boom, Tactics! Synergy! Take that naysayers.