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tneva82 wrote:
Flipside of course is less overkill for enemy. Last time I faced taloses one unit vaporized 2 and nearly killed 3rd. Had they been separate ones I would have had to split attacks increasing chance more would have been alive.

Though still on a whole 1 squadron is probably better ;-)

You can split fire all guns now, so it doesnt matter.

Edit: Unless its the last wound or 2 of 1 Talos and they shoot you with a D6 assault weapon, then yeah, 1 extra wound might go through, but in reality the pros are better.

I am thinking I might want to put heat lances on my jet bikes.

Am I crazy?

I have a unit of 12 so 4 special weapons, right now I have blasters. Plus 1 to wound (effective difference between strenght 5 and 8) seemed at the time better than re-rolling damage. Now I am not so sure. I run them Red grief, so they can be any where, the half range contraint is not a problem. -5 vs -4 ap is nearly always the same. So its +1 to wound vs re roll damage. And the heat lances are 5 points less each. Times 4 thats an extra bike, or 2 blast pistols.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Flipside of course is less overkill for enemy. Last time I faced taloses one unit vaporized 2 and nearly killed 3rd. Had they been separate ones I would have had to split attacks increasing chance more would have been alive.

Though still on a whole 1 squadron is probably better ;-)

You can split fire all guns now, so it doesnt matter.

Edit: Unless its the last wound or 2 of 1 Talos and they shoot you with a D6 assault weapon, then yeah, 1 extra wound might go through, but in reality the pros are better.

One unit of 3 is definitely good, but I often run one unit of 3 and then two singles. The singles run the flanks or grab objectives and can hide and/or threaten anything for dirt cheap. But if I ever run less I definitely run them in a single unit. I also run grotesques a lot so I have no interest in running more then the 5 talos I have already painted. Some folks like 9 but I find it gets into trouble verse certain match ups.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Best person to ask for tactics is 'Amish' i think.

I've never really known anybody to take cronos but far as i've heard it's not very good in comparison to say a talos. Of course if you take a talos you want more than just one.

As far as the rest of it goes i honestly dunno. I'd say wych cult are sub-par but wyches supposedly do alright. Dunno the best way to run them as i prefer haemonculus covens in every way. The only issue is speed but grotesques can usually be DS'd in by turn 2 for a charge and Talos in numbers seem to draw quite a bit of fire from your other units.

Ravagers tend to do better with disintegrators rather than dark lance far as i've seen. Against normal tanks and monsters dark lances are great but against any vehicle or monstrous creature with an invulnerable of 4+ or better (looking at you riptides, knights and forge world vehicles!) the disintegrators are better because it spreads out wounds so they don't just re-roll a failed invulnerable save with 1 command point (super obnoxious btw when you pour out 12 dark lances and fail to even scratch the paint). Also disintegrators offer anti-infantry at range which can be decent depending on what they're hitting.

Honestly i think grotesques for you will handle any monstrous creatures with flesh gauntlets and a ton of different infantry types as well. Eh dark lances might be ok after all but i suppose it depends on vehicles with invulnerable saves.

The list you have sounds alright to be honest. I've never really had a reason to take both covens and wych cults though. Usually people take one or the other as they both do the same melee job but a bit differently.

Regarding dark angels or the mission you play i have no idea. All MEQ armies are in a bad place right now even with new boltgun rules.

Skari is very good too, more knowledgeable than me for sure (He participates in higher levels than i do), he is not on dakka very often, but on FB and TheDarkCity

But that missions sounds Fun, i havent gotten to play all the CA ones yet (im making a League and trying to balance it with Cities of Death whle we are finishing up 2 other leagues).

For Fly, yes Talos will be great, Cronos really are not worth it but can be made to be worth it, sadly its with Grots, Wyches, basically melee horde, and sadly its normally not worth b.c its not a character, it will get shot to death right away. The Cronos should be a character, then you might see it being played.

As far as that mission? Your list is looking fine, to take away points, take away some weapons off the Reavers, Reavers are good when they are cheap, they dont have the survivability to use special weapons and you are -1 to hit if you advance, especially if you are going for advancement and charging, 2 shots, 1 hit, maybe 1 wound IMO isnt worth 30pts on a unit that wants to move around and tie up other units or take objectives.

Edit: PS, when people ask for advice on lists, i never try to tailor or change their lists to my ideas or playstyles. I try to keep the same units or feel of the list so its your list. Will just give advice on your list.

So I've played the game in question, and things turned out...well, not as I had hoped, but it was still a fun battle. I have recorded it for posterity:

Battle Report: Drukhari vs Dark Angels

Please feel free to read it, and give me your own thoughts on what I did wrong, and what I should have done.

Great report. Very cinematic, which is how I like to write them as well.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Flipside of course is less overkill for enemy. Last time I faced taloses one unit vaporized 2 and nearly killed 3rd. Had they been separate ones I would have had to split attacks increasing chance more would have been alive.

Though still on a whole 1 squadron is probably better ;-)

You can split fire all guns now, so it doesnt matter.

Edit: Unless its the last wound or 2 of 1 Talos and they shoot you with a D6 assault weapon, then yeah, 1 extra wound might go through, but in reality the pros are better.

Ah if only dices would always roll averages and not say bunch roll over the average and bunch under the average ;-)

Orks in particular have swingy shooting so if I were to be splitting up dices it increases odds of survivals.

In case you didn't notice I did mention splitting. But that increases odds of taloses surviving and without degrading it's all or nothing. I kill it or it's full threat. Meaning I HAVE to account for survival and not just shoot what it "in average" takes out.

Headlss wrote:
I am thinking I might want to put heat lances on my jet bikes.

Am I crazy?

I have a unit of 12 so 4 special weapons, right now I have blasters. Plus 1 to wound (effective difference between strenght 5 and 8) seemed at the time better than re-rolling damage. Now I am not so sure. I run them Red grief, so they can be any where, the half range contraint is not a problem. -5 vs -4 ap is nearly always the same. So its +1 to wound vs re roll damage. And the heat lances are 5 points less each. Times 4 thats an extra bike, or 2 blast pistols.

Help a brother out. Are heat lances worth it?

Not really. You trade 2 points of strength for the melta ability and and extra AP. You don't get to roll damage until you wound something and the extra AP is totally unecessary most of the time so your basically taking a weapon that struggles to wound most things compared to blasters.

tneva82 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Flipside of course is less overkill for enemy. Last time I faced taloses one unit vaporized 2 and nearly killed 3rd. Had they been separate ones I would have had to split attacks increasing chance more would have been alive.

Though still on a whole 1 squadron is probably better ;-)

You can split fire all guns now, so it doesnt matter.

Edit: Unless its the last wound or 2 of 1 Talos and they shoot you with a D6 assault weapon, then yeah, 1 extra wound might go through, but in reality the pros are better.

Ah if only dices would always roll averages and not say bunch roll over the average and bunch under the average ;-)

Orks in particular have swingy shooting so if I were to be splitting up dices it increases odds of survivals.

In case you didn't notice I did mention splitting. But that increases odds of taloses surviving and without degrading it's all or nothing. I kill it or it's full threat. Meaning I HAVE to account for survival and not just shoot what it "in average" takes out.

I know you said you can split fire, im saying B.c players can, unless you need more units, some units like Grots, Talos, etc.. are better in a larger unit b.c how buffs/stratagems/auras work.

And you always go by averages, if not then just throw out any idea of list building and tactics and hope for above average rolling on your part and below on your opponents.

He also is running only 3 with 0 other large threats (Ravagers and Reapers are a threat but not int he same way, there is different types of threats), when you mix you lists with a little bit of this, a little of that, and a dash of this other thing, you are not focusing on something enough, you have no direction for you lists. Hornets dont do a lot of damage, especially with Scatter Lasers. So there is only 9 Single units that are of any threats, all are easily killed if anything focus them down.

Single Talos might be better if you had another anvil, like 2x10 blocks of Grotesques, then yeah i can see singles being something to take, so you can move them and support flanks here and there. But then they will be out of Aura range and you dont be using any buffs on them at all, you cant use them to melee down knights and tanks, you cant move them any faster (no fire and fade) you cant do a lot of stuff then.


On the Reavers vs Heat lances, i personally feel no upgrades on Reavers is best, but i do know a few players that unes them as anti-character kills, 4 HL into a T3/T4 character means if you get 1 or 2 through (past the invul normally) and with the extra poison shots, you can easily kill any character, ive seen Gman die to them., with 4 Grav-talons as well for 288pts, you should be able to kill most sub 10 wound characters without trying to hard, the problem is 3++ with a CP re-roll normally means 0-1 wounds through. But vs units like IG characters or 4++ ones yeah it works out well, Shoot 1 character, charge another. Personally i dont like that play style. But if you are liking HL's give it a try.

I want the heat lances to kill kinghts. I should really run the numbers.

Headlss wrote:
I want the heat lances to kill kinghts. I should really run the numbers.

But you are wounding on 5+ at that point were Blasters are wounding on 4+, Blasters does 2.5 wounds on average were HL does 2 wounds on average if within 2D6 pick highest range. B.c Blasters can shoot from a longer distance you can be in a safer spot and you deal more damage, this is assuming they have 4++ (5++ is Blaster=3.1, HL=2.64)

HL really are more of a Light vehicle or character killer, you want to be able to wound on a 2/3+ with them, thats when they become good.

Heat lances really need a total rewrite. The blaster already does what it wants to better. Maybe if they had d3 shots and set 3 damage for example. Right now I never use them.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Not really. You trade 2 points of strength for the melta ability and and extra AP. You don't get to roll damage until you wound something and the extra AP is totally unecessary most of the time so your basically taking a weapon that struggles to wound most things compared to blasters.

Lots of invuls and such make the AP less impactful than it looks on paper, so volume and STR are the rule of the day (and thats why orks beat so much ass)

Well, lanced used to have a special rule, now they dont. They need to have a Lance rule back, even if it was something simple like "-1IS" where IS is Invulnerable Save. So -1 to Invul saves.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well, lanced used to have a special rule, now they dont. They need to have a Lance rule back, even if it was something simple like "-1IS" where IS is Invulnerable Save. So -1 to Invul saves.

No time soon, i wouldn't think.

Yeah it wont happen unless they rewrite 8th and add core rules to the brb again.

If the damage output was up almost by 300% and the survivability was more than 50%, we might see more MC's and basic vehicles on the table, then HL would be useful. They only arnt b.c how the core rules made the meta.

I mean it's called a lance, even if they gave it a melee profile as well it would help.

Red Corsair wrote:I mean it's called a lance, even if they gave it a melee profile as well it would help.

Honestly, given the current state of the meta, I would be fine with upping the heat lance's strength while giving it the "melta" special ability. The trade off, obviously, would be a points hike and its shorter range than the blaster.

Jancoran wrote:Great report. Very cinematic, which is how I like to write them as well.

Thanks! I tried to make this one enjoyable to read. Looking back at the game itself, I can't think of anything I could have done differently other than not leave my Warrior Raider exposed like that. Regarding the decision I had to make with my Grotesques on Turn 2, any thoughts on that? I'm still debating whether it would have been worth it to risk exposing them to the Hellblasters shooting them immediately with Auspex or not.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I want the heat lances to kill kinghts. I should really run the numbers.

But you are wounding on 5+ at that point were Blasters are wounding on 4+, Blasters does 2.5 wounds on average were HL does 2 wounds on average if within 2D6 pick highest range. B.c Blasters can shoot from a longer distance you can be in a safer spot and you deal more damage, this is assuming they have 4++ (5++ is Blaster=3.1, HL=2.64)

HL really are more of a Light vehicle or character killer, you want to be able to wound on a 2/3+ with them, thats when they become good.

I am not sure of your math.

Lets make 12 shots.

8 hits.

4 blaster wounds ---------2 saves. Average 7 damage

3 heat lance wounds. (2 2/3)

1 (1/3) saves. 9 times out of 36 it dose 3 damge or less. 3/36 2 dame or less.


Need a large sample size. But yeah. Blaster is the better choice. Except heat lances are cheeper for the cost of 12 blasters I could have 17 heat lances. (Not on bikes I know.)

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:I mean it's called a lance, even if they gave it a melee profile as well it would help.

Honestly, given the current state of the meta, I would be fine with upping the heat lance's strength while giving it the "melta" special ability. The trade off, obviously, would be a points hike and its shorter range than the blaster.

Jancoran wrote:Great report. Very cinematic, which is how I like to write them as well.

Thanks! I tried to make this one enjoyable to read. Looking back at the game itself, I can't think of anything I could have done differently other than not leave my Warrior Raider exposed like that. Regarding the decision I had to make with my Grotesques on Turn 2, any thoughts on that? I'm still debating whether it would have been worth it to risk exposing them to the Hellblasters shooting them immediately with Auspex or not.

With hisspeed, I might have liked to deep strike some of that stuff that was deployed. Webway portal is cool, especially for assault units but not exclusively.

Headlss wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I want the heat lances to kill kinghts. I should really run the numbers.

But you are wounding on 5+ at that point were Blasters are wounding on 4+, Blasters does 2.5 wounds on average were HL does 2 wounds on average if within 2D6 pick highest range. B.c Blasters can shoot from a longer distance you can be in a safer spot and you deal more damage, this is assuming they have 4++ (5++ is Blaster=3.1, HL=2.64)

HL really are more of a Light vehicle or character killer, you want to be able to wound on a 2/3+ with them, thats when they become good.

I am not sure of your math.

Lets make 12 shots.

8 hits.

4 blaster wounds ---------2 saves. Average 7 damage

3 heat lance wounds. (2 2/3)

1 (1/3) saves. 9 times out of 36 it dose 3 damge or less. 3/36 2 dame or less.


Need a large sample size. But yeah. Blaster is the better choice. Except heat lances are cheeper for the cost of 12 blasters I could have 17 heat lances. (Not on bikes I know.)

I didnt do 12 shots i did 4, My quick point was only to show blasters are better.

Hey guys,

Im an admech player that decided on picking up drukhari as my second army. Im particularly interested in Wych cults (Gotta go fast) but i've been toying with them on Tabletop simulator and they feel underwhelming.

Im aware that kabal/coven are the more competitive builds, but is there a way to make a cult-centric list function?

Units like Wyches, Reavers and Hellions must have some utility to them that i'm not seeing , especially the wyches and hellions.

Wyches needs support, you cans till have a competitive list with them for sure, a battlalion is great, 1-2 5/10 mans and then 1 15+ man unit with 2 Succubus and maybe a fast attack for flavor.

You really want to focus on the wyches having a couple support squads (so cheap 10mans) then 1 large hard hitting unit with the +Atk drug, being Cursed Blade is important, b.c you get +1Str and dont lose moral easily. Its important to go 10mans b.c of the weapons, you get 3 for 10, 1 for 5.

After that you really need something to back them up, Coven or Kabal does fine, but you want some threats for sure, triple Ravagers are always good.

A list i run a lot is (For pure DE)

Archon - WL Cunning and Living Muse, Venom blade
Ravager -x3 DC
Ravager -x3 DC
Ravager -x3 DC

Haemonculus - Hexrifle, Electro Whip, Relic Helm
Urien
Wracks x10 -Hexrifle, Electro Whip
Wracks x10 -Hexrifle, Electro Whip
Wracks x10 -Hexrifle, Electro Whip
Grots x9
Talos x3 - Flail, Scalpel, HWB

Succubus - Shardnet
Succubus - Shardnet
Wych x10 - Shardnets
Wych x10 - Shardnets
Wych x19 - Shardnets, PGL


If you wanted more pure Wych, then add in large units and Reavers, you can also take Reapers and Tantalus as Wych cult.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Wyches needs support, you cans till have a competitive list with them for sure, a battlalion is great, 1-2 5/10 mans and then 1 15+ man unit with 2 Succubus and maybe a fast attack for flavor.

You really want to focus on the wyches having a couple support squads (so cheap 10mans) then 1 large hard hitting unit with the +Atk drug, being Cursed Blade is important, b.c you get +1Str and dont lose moral easily. Its important to go 10mans b.c of the weapons, you get 3 for 10, 1 for 5.

After that you really need something to back them up, Coven or Kabal does fine, but you want some threats for sure, triple Ravagers are always good.

A list i run a lot is (For pure DE)

Archon - WL Cunning and Living Muse, Venom blade
Ravager -x3 DC
Ravager -x3 DC
Ravager -x3 DC

Haemonculus - Hexrifle, Electro Whip, Relic Helm
Urien
Wracks x10 -Hexrifle, Electro Whip
Wracks x10 -Hexrifle, Electro Whip
Wracks x10 -Hexrifle, Electro Whip
Grots x9
Talos x3 - Flail, Scalpel, HWB

Succubus - Shardnet
Succubus - Shardnet
Wych x10 - Shardnets
Wych x10 - Shardnets
Wych x19 - Shardnets, PGL


If you wanted more pure Wych, then add in large units and Reavers, you can also take Reapers and Tantalus as Wych cult.

yeah from what ive seen they do need some supporting fire (talos have super impressed me so far),
I'll probably try out ravagers and more of the coven units in my next game to see how they go.

How do you play your wyches? do you just run them up the board ? i feel like theyre way too squishy for this to allwo them to live

They are either wave 2 hittings (Coven up front, Wyches move up but try to hide) or counter melee vs armies like Nids, Chaos, Orks, etc.. they are great to also tie up melee knights that rush up, (there are lists of 2-3 melee knights that can turn 1-2 charge).

Normally i want them in combat turn 2-3 no matter what, but i dont push them so hard they are a easy target.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They are either wave 2 hittings (Coven up front, Wyches move up but try to hide) or counter melee vs armies like Nids, Chaos, Orks, etc.. they are great to also tie up melee knights that rush up, (there are lists of 2-3 melee knights that can turn 1-2 charge).

Normally i want them in combat turn 2-3 no matter what, but i dont push them so hard they are a easy target.

how do you use them to tie up knights? can't they just fallback over the wyches and still shoot/charge?

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They are either wave 2 hittings (Coven up front, Wyches move up but try to hide) or counter melee vs armies like Nids, Chaos, Orks, etc.. they are great to also tie up melee knights that rush up, (there are lists of 2-3 melee knights that can turn 1-2 charge).

Normally i want them in combat turn 2-3 no matter what, but i dont push them so hard they are a easy target.

how do you use them to tie up knights? can't they just fallback over the wyches and still shoot/charge?

They stop you from falling back on a 4+

 Jancoran wrote:


They stop you from falling back on a 4+

Their no escape ability only works on infantry tho.

 Jancoran wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They are either wave 2 hittings (Coven up front, Wyches move up but try to hide) or counter melee vs armies like Nids, Chaos, Orks, etc.. they are great to also tie up melee knights that rush up, (there are lists of 2-3 melee knights that can turn 1-2 charge).

Normally i want them in combat turn 2-3 no matter what, but i dont push them so hard they are a easy target.

how do you use them to tie up knights? can't they just fallback over the wyches and still shoot/charge?

They stop you from falling back on a 4+

No, thats only infantry, No Escape only works on infantry. I mean with Melee knights charging up, they have to go through 40 4++/6+++ to even do anything, i fall back and bubble wrap with them, when space out enough knights cant walk over them at all, they are dead where they are at. Holding objective at the same time.

But i was referring to charging knights. I wont go out and use them against shooting knights.

My meta at least (Tournaments) will have Melee knights (And honestly they are very good, i understand why), At least no one (yet) is doing 3 Melee knights (Gallents i think they are) and 9 Assassins with Loyal 32, God i hate that list.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


They stop you from falling back on a 4+

Their no escape ability only works on infantry tho.

Fair. i havent used them so i probably missed that point.