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Morkphoiz wrote:
Hey guys,

Since I love the looks of the Drukhari Jetbikes and I got my hands on a really cheap Gangs of Commoragh box I ... well lets say I liked the Idea of a lightning fast army and then bought another box, then another one then sold all the hellions and bought more stuff and I now have a pile of models of which I really like the looks but have yet to Play. (... and build ... and paint ... for the most part)

From what I've read a Wych Cult army is considered the lowest tier of Drukhari armies but I really hope I can still make them work in a player group of wannabe Powergamers

What I have piled up so far is the following:

2 Succubi

20 Wyches

4 Venoms

30 Reavers

2 Razorwing Jetfighters

1 Voidraven Bomber

Loaded with Blasters and Lances to the max I should get roughly 1750 Points out of that. My questions are:

Can this madness work? +1A trait for Maximum carnage or Charge after advance for t1 charge reavers? Am I missing something important?

I just found out that puppetswar sells crow models so I plan on getting a beastmaster and a load of Razorwing flocks next to go with the theme.

What I am afraid of is that I may have absolutely zero staying power. Coven Armies are really tough but Reavers feel a little brittle. I am a little scared of going second with this army composition.

What would you do with this army? Help a Drukhari noob out please

Reavers can definitely do work. I played against a list that had 2x12 blaster reavers at 1000 in cult of the red grief. Insane amount of board cover, meaning those blasters get far. Then they do tasty dmg in combat and are a brilliant screen. Not a list you expect to see that's for sure.

What my opponent did was give both squads +1 toughness too, by having 7 units so choosing +1 tough, allocating 5, then choosing +1 tough again. Nasty.

You've got 1500:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [52 PL, 1061pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Cult of the Red Grief

+ HQ +

Succubus [4 PL, 50pts]: Archite Glaive, Splinter pistol

Succubus [4 PL, 50pts]: Archite Glaive, Splinter pistol

+ Troops +

Wyches [4 PL, 80pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 9x Wych

Wyches [2 PL, 40pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych

Wyches [2 PL, 40pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych

+ Fast Attack +

Reavers [13 PL, 308pts]: 4x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 7x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster

Reavers [13 PL, 308pts]: 4x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 7x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster

Reavers [6 PL, 110pts]: Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 3x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom [4 PL, 75pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [25 PL, 435pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Voidraven [9 PL, 165pts]: Two void lances, Voidraven Missiles

++ Total: [77 PL, 1496pts] ++

Not bad imo, definitely surprising.
Maybe you could do with some more kabal or coven if you were to take it bigger

With the farseer change, and given the chance to take out the raider, I'm considering getting 9 grotesques. People have been saying they are amazing but I do have a few questions.

My list was something like (non tourney compliant I know, was semi competitive)

2 archon
3 venom blaster kabs
3 dissie ravagers
Lance kabs + raider

2 dissie razorwings
Voidraven

Farseer skyrunner

Haemy
3 Talos

So with the change, the farseer has to go. I'd thought I'd take the opportunity to ditch the raider as it never did a lot for me. So that leaves space for 9 grots. Or, I could put in urien for another strength which would mean I drop a grot for him. Lose mask, can I still take alliance of agony with him? Gain a strength + other stuff.

What do you think? Hopefully our loss of the farseer makes it much less one sided for me. (I was unbeaten with the farseer)

Cheers

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
With the farseer change, and given the chance to take out the raider, I'm considering getting 9 grotesques. People have been saying they are amazing but I do have a few questions.

My list was something like (non tourney compliant I know, was semi competitive)

2 archon
3 venom blaster kabs
3 dissie ravagers
Lance kabs + raider

2 dissie razorwings
Voidraven

Farseer skyrunner

Haemy
3 Talos

So with the change, the farseer has to go. I'd thought I'd take the opportunity to ditch the raider as it never did a lot for me. So that leaves space for 9 grots. Or, I could put in urien for another strength which would mean I drop a grot for him. Lose mask, can I still take alliance of agony with him? Gain a strength + other stuff.

What do you think? Hopefully our loss of the farseer makes it much less one sided for me. (I was unbeaten with the farseer)

Cheers

You could swap one of your Archons for Yvraine for Psychic defence and some mortal wound generation. If you take Urien he can still be a target for Alliance of Agony.

So yesterday i faced a competitive tau player and i actually won. He started the game with maybe 17 CP vs my 8 and by game end he spent them all as did i. The mission was Eternal War and i think it was about holding points based on the roll. Killed one of his 2 riptides and 2 of his ghostkeels as well as various other fire warriors, drone squads and 2 of his 3 stealth suits.

Anyway i won at turn 5 when the game ended. I only had like 2 or so kabalites warriors left and he still had a riptide with like only 4 wounds taken, some fire warriors, characters, some drones and 3 broadsides.

Honestly if i was to do it again i would've had my 10 grotesques and haemonculus DS near his fire warriors and go after them instead since the riptides and other big suits can just fly away. Not to mention the best you can really do to a broadside even with them all using flesh gauntlets is almost kill one which may knock it down a profile but they have an ability which counts it at full anyway. The fire warriors on the other hand would've just been mega-dead and excepting for a character aura ability (which if you kill he can't do it) he couldn't just leave combat and shoot his fire warriors at me.

Anyway things i learned is that grotesques esp. boosted can eat a lot of enemy firepower, electro-corrosive whips are pretty amazing vs monsters with invulnerable saves and good armor (in fact i may take a lot more of them where i'm able to get em) and ALWAYS take dissies on ravagers as they can do damage to more targets. I will also continue to use void lances on void ravens but i'm unsure if i should just cut them from my list or what.

What was your full list??

FlamingKillaMaJig, how did you deal with Drones? Did you just drop Void Mine on them or pepper them with splinter fire?

Khornegod wrote:What was your full list??

Kabal of the Flayed Skull Battalion

Archon w/ huskblade and blaster (warlord got hatred eternal so RR to wound in shooting and melee)

Archon w/ huskblade and blaster

Warriors x5

Warriors x5

Warriors x5

Ravager w/ dark lance x 3

Ravager w/ dark lance x 3

Ravager w/ dark lance x 3

Void Raven w/ void lances x2

Void Raven w/ void lances x2

Trueborn w/ shredders x5 in a venom w/ splinter cannons x 2

Trueborn w/ shredders x5 in a venom w/ splinter cannons x 2

Trueborn w/ shredders x5 in a venom w/ splinter cannons x 2

Prophets of Flesh Patrol Detachment (4++ Inv. Save)

Haemonculus w/ hex rifle and electro-corrosive whip and nightmare doll (4+ FNP) (this DS with the grotesques for Toughness boosting)

Wracks w/ acothyst getting hex rifle and an electro-corrosive whip

Grotesques w/ flesh gauntlet and monstrous cleaver x10 (these went into DS)

---------

1973 pts and 8 CP

It probably wasn't the best list but did work. We'll see how it does against other armies. I plan to use dissie ravagers from now on.

Elfric wrote:FlamingKillaMaJig, how did you deal with Drones? Did you just drop Void Mine on them or pepper them with splinter fire?

A bit of both. Void mine did work on the first bit of drones and some of the others i hit with poison and/or shredder shots.

I think flesh gauntlets only works on infantry. Might be wrong, and the big suits are not infantry.

Love voidravens. I own one and really liked it in 7e and in my index list.

Headlss wrote:
I think flesh gauntlets only works on infantry. Might be wrong, and the big suits are not infantry.

Flesh gauntlets do mortal wounds on anything except vehicles if i recall correctly.

------

Void ravens are alright in 8th. The void lance is stronger than dark lances which can be ok and they are -1 to hit since they're flyers and depending on what targets you hit the void mine can either be worthwhile or kinda crap. With drones they have inv. saves but the unit sizes are kinda meh. Currently MEQ armies are kinda in the toilet so void mine doesn't help as much as it could. Void mines also end up being super good vs genestealers.

In 7th if a Void Raven was in the right battle it could legit spam missiles and wipe out a huge unit after dropping a mine on something else. Totally helped me out in certain scenarios.

Dark Eldar anti-tank and anti-monster is in a really odd place right now. Against Riptides and monsters with really good inv. saves we need something like grotesques with flesh gauntlets with re-rolls to wound due to the 2 CP stratagem. Of course most of those units can just fly away as well leaving you open to being shot or put into melee with something else so you might want to murder some of their supporting units with ranged firepower first (at least in Tau's case). That said in the case of a vehicle army poison of any kind is mostly worthless and most of our mortal wound units excepting haywire units and mandrakes (which oddly mortal wound anything on a 6) can't do their mortal wounds.

Either way we're in a weird place as we don't have a steadily reliable anti-tank and anti-monster unit. I always feel like vs normal tanks and monsters dark lances on flyers are good and maybe dissies on ravagers with archons armed with blasters supporting them (usually aside from characters i try not to take blasters as they get torn up when they get too close). Against vehicles with inv. saves haywire is probably best though considering the life expectancy of scourge i'd give them 1 turn of shooting average though talos should be able to equip some (i haven't used talos yet but they should do well enough). Dissie ravagers may be alright vs knights and other good inv. save vehicles. For good inv. save monsters it's flesh gauntlets and maybe electro corrosive whips along with dissie fire support. Poisoned shooting can still hurt ghostkeels provided you kill the drones first but it's still durable.

That's all i can gather. Of course i'm not exactly a great dark eldar player but i've had some success.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I think flesh gauntlets only works on infantry. Might be wrong, and the big suits are not infantry.

Flesh gauntlets do mortal wounds on anything except vehicles if i recall correctly.

------

Void ravens are alright in 8th. The void lance is stronger than dark lances which can be ok and they are -1 to hit since they're flyers and depending on what targets you hit the void mine can either be worthwhile or kinda crap. With drones they have inv. saves but the unit sizes are kinda meh. Currently MEQ armies are kinda in the toilet so void mine doesn't help as much as it could. Void mines also end up being super good vs genestealers.

In 7th if a Void Raven was in the right battle it could legit spam missiles and wipe out a huge unit after dropping a mine on something else. Totally helped me out in certain scenarios.

Dark Eldar anti-tank and anti-monster is in a really odd place right now. Against Riptides and monsters with really good inv. saves we need something like grotesques with flesh gauntlets with re-rolls to wound due to the 2 CP stratagem. Of course most of those units can just fly away as well leaving you open to being shot or put into melee with something else so you might want to murder some of their supporting units with ranged firepower first (at least in Tau's case). That said in the case of a vehicle army poison of any kind is mostly worthless and most of our mortal wound units excepting haywire units and mandrakes (which oddly mortal wound anything on a 6) can't do their mortal wounds.

Either way we're in a weird place as we don't have a steadily reliable anti-tank and anti-monster unit. I always feel like vs normal tanks and monsters dark lances on flyers are good and maybe dissies on ravagers with archons armed with blasters supporting them (usually aside from characters i try not to take blasters as they get torn up when they get too close). Against vehicles with inv. saves haywire is probably best though considering the life expectancy of scourge i'd give them 1 turn of shooting average though talos should be able to equip some (i haven't used talos yet but they should do well enough). Dissie ravagers may be alright vs knights and other good inv. save vehicles. For good inv. save monsters it's flesh gauntlets and maybe electro corrosive whips along with dissie fire support. Poisoned shooting can still hurt ghostkeels provided you kill the drones first but it's still durable.

That's all i can gather. Of course i'm not exactly a great dark eldar player but i've had some success.

Our whole army is Anti MC and all Kabal/Coven can have anti-tank, we are not CWE we dont have dedicated units, sure you can say Scourge and Trueborn, but they are not real dedicated units they can be modeled to fit a role. Units like Fire dragons are a dedicated unit, or Dark Reapers, or Swooping Hawks, etc... DE has never had any unit dedicated via bonus rules other than high AP, Haywire, or Poison.

Has anyone tried a Prophet of Flesh wrack unit with the "Black Cornucopians" stratagem?

Which allows you to, at end of movement phase, remove it from battle field, then set it up again within 6" of table edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. (which can only happen starting 2nd turn...right?)

So, a 10-man blob with 4++, FNP could be onery... yes?

 whembly wrote:
Has anyone tried a Prophet of Flesh wrack unit with the "Black Cornucopians" stratagem?

Which allows you to, at end of movement phase, remove it from battle field, then set it up again within 6" of table edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. (which can only happen starting 2nd turn...right?)

So, a 10-man blob with 4++, FNP could be onery... yes?

That's what I'm doing in my list. It was many pages back so you might have missed that mini discussion but it was one of the better options for my list since i am trying to do a true Coven list rather than the admittedly better combined forces of the Dark City type thing.


++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [107 PL, 15CP, 1,997pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment Attribute
. Prophets of Flesh

Detachment CP [12CP]

+ HQ +

Haemonculus [5 PL, 75pts]: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle

Haemonculus [5 PL, 75pts]: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle, Master Artisan, Warlord (Haemonculus)
. The Vexator Mask

Urien Rakarth [5 PL, 90pts]

+ Troops +

Wracks [5 PL, 89pts]
. Acothyst: Electrocorrosive whip
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Liquifier Gun
. 6x Wracks

Wracks [3 PL, 57pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 3x Wracks

Wracks [3 PL, 57pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 3x Wracks

Wracks [3 PL, 57pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 3x Wracks

Wracks [3 PL, 57pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 3x Wracks

Wracks [3 PL, 57pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle
. Wrack with special weapon (up to 1 for 5 models): Ossefactor
. 3x Wracks

+ Elites +

Grotesques [10 PL, 175pts]
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Weapons of Torture (Index): Flesh Gauntlet, Monstrous Cleaver

Grotesques [10 PL, 175pts]
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh Gauntlet
. Grotesque with Weapons of Torture (Index): Flesh Gauntlet, Monstrous Cleaver

Mandrakes [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Mandrake
. Nightfiend

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges [5 PL, 128pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges [5 PL, 108pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges [5 PL, 120pts]
. Scourge
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Heavy Support +

Talos [6 PL, 119pts]
. Talos: Ichor Injector, Talos Gauntlet
. . Two Heat lances: 2x Heat lance

Talos [6 PL, 119pts]
. Talos: Ichor Injector, Talos Gauntlet
. . Two Heat lances: 2x Heat lance

Talos [6 PL, 119pts]
. Talos: Ichor Injector, Talos Gauntlet
. . Two Heat lances: 2x Heat lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

++ Total: [107 PL, 15CP, 1,997pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 whembly wrote:
Has anyone tried a Prophet of Flesh wrack unit with the "Black Cornucopians" stratagem?

Which allows you to, at end of movement phase, remove it from battle field, then set it up again within 6" of table edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. (which can only happen starting 2nd turn...right?)

So, a 10-man blob with 4++, FNP could be onery... yes?

Most players that play with PoF and wracks do it, always take at least 1 unit of 10, 2 units of 10 is a bit much, but if you have the points go for it.

I like to play Recon in ITC and this has given it to me a couple times, also remember it works on turn 1, something to think about.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Our whole army is Anti MC and all Kabal/Coven can have anti-tank, we are not CWE we dont have dedicated units, sure you can say Scourge and Trueborn, but they are not real dedicated units they can be modeled to fit a role. Units like Fire dragons are a dedicated unit, or Dark Reapers, or Swooping Hawks, etc... DE has never had any unit dedicated via bonus rules other than high AP, Haywire, or Poison.

In the case of poisoned weapons look through the book and find any poisoned weapon at all that has an AP value. It's a short list. In the case of riptides their armor is 2+ with a 3++ inv. save and possibly a bit of FNP. The only poisoned weapons that cut through any armor whatsoever are based around Coven of 12 wracks or electro-corrosive whips. Also Electro-corrosive whips are the only poisoned weapon we have that does more than 1 damage and also has an alright AP value which helps a LOT. Sad bit is both of those come on wracks mostly which while they could have a decent role it's rather funky when they can be geared towards killing some monsters with invulnerable saves that tend to move really fast anyway (daemon prince, fly-rants and riptides). Of course this is where the haemonculus themselves shine a bit brighter. Of course grotesques can fill a similar role as well with monster killing though i imagine wracks (if they survive) can do it pretty well as well esp. with electro-corrosive whips.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Our whole army is Anti MC and all Kabal/Coven can have anti-tank, we are not CWE we dont have dedicated units, sure you can say Scourge and Trueborn, but they are not real dedicated units they can be modeled to fit a role. Units like Fire dragons are a dedicated unit, or Dark Reapers, or Swooping Hawks, etc... DE has never had any unit dedicated via bonus rules other than high AP, Haywire, or Poison.

In the case of poisoned weapons look through the book and find any poisoned weapon at all that has an AP value. It's a short list. In the case of riptides their armor is 2+ with a 3++ inv. save and possibly a bit of FNP. The only poisoned weapons that cut through any armor whatsoever are based around Coven of 12 wracks or electro-corrosive whips. Also Electro-corrosive whips are the only poisoned weapon we have that does more than 1 damage and also has an alright AP value which helps a LOT. Sad bit is both of those come on wracks mostly which while they could have a decent role it's rather funky when they can be geared towards killing some monsters with invulnerable saves that tend to move really fast anyway (daemon prince, fly-rants and riptides). Of course this is where the haemonculus themselves shine a bit brighter. Of course grotesques can fill a similar role as well with monster killing though i imagine wracks (if they survive) can do it pretty well as well esp. with electro-corrosive whips.

Again, our full book is good against MC, i even said Coven. Mandrakes are as well oddly, sure it'll only be 2-3 MW's and 3-4 normal damage, but for a DSing -1 to hit 5++/6+++ unit that can force to be dealt with, 4-5 wounds is good, especailly when you shoot them with other units. We dont shoot and kill units with 1 unit like CWE does, we need redundancies. We dont have a special tool for each job, we do have units that are better at melee vs infantry or vs MC's sure.

How is Obsdian Rose doing these days? Does it compare well to Flayed Skull and/or Black Heart?

 vipoid wrote:
How is Obsdian Rose doing these days? Does it compare well to Flayed Skull and/or Black Heart?

I have run obsidian rose since 8th come out. I like it. I really like having the extra range especially on the blasters. I also really like the relic 'armor of Misery' I think its called. An Archon with 3+ 2++ and -1 to hit in melee is quite tough.

I've been thinking about flayed skull but I don't have enough skimmers to load all my guys up. I usually set my warriors up in a fire base and leave them there. Which I why I want the extra 6" range.

 vipoid wrote:
How is Obsdian Rose doing these days? Does it compare well to Flayed Skull and/or Black Heart?

I think if you are running lots of special weapons then you'll want Obi Rose over Flaw Skull, Flaw skull is really good on Flyers and venom spam that has limited special weapons in units. If you are running Trueborn, or a Blaster/Shredder in all kabals it might be worth it over the other two.

For me its always either Black Heart or Flawed Skull, ignore cover +3" or 6+++ on vehicles/+1PFP are to me more important than extra inches of weapons

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I think if you are running lots of special weapons then you'll want Obi Rose over Flaw Skull, Flaw skull is really good on Flyers and venom spam that has limited special weapons in units. If you are running Trueborn, or a Blaster/Shredder in all kabals it might be worth it over the other two.

Well, I don't run Trueborn but I never run Kabalites without Blasters.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

For me its always either Black Heart or Flawed Skull, ignore cover +3" or 6+++ on vehicles/+1PFP are to me more important than extra inches of weapons

That's fair. I'll have to try Flayed Skull sometime. Ignores Cover is very useful and I like their relic. The only thing I really dislike is that you lose all the bonuses the moment your transport is destroyed.

I've actually been using Poison Tongue until now. However, I've all but given up on the Soul Seeker and spending points on Lhamaeans and a transport for my Archon just don't seem worth it.

Flayed Skull is *nasty* in a skimmer heavy army. Vect and his boys get all the glory, but not giving a damn about cover is a huge equalizer against 3+ infantry hugging rocks to get a 2+ against your poison. The +3 move also means even after being degraded all your vees are still zooming about like Wylie Coyote on PCP.

If you're just running Ravagers and flyers with Coven/Cult support you'll get more mileage out of Black Heart, but if you've got Venoms in any meaningful quantity Flayed Skull does serious work.

I love flayed skull. I've also, recently, switched to Shredders over blasters, less than half the cost and more synergistic with splinter.

Sterling191 wrote:
Flayed Skull is *nasty* in a skimmer heavy army. Vect and his boys get all the glory, but not giving a damn about cover is a huge equalizer against 3+ infantry hugging rocks to get a 2+ against your poison. The +3 move also means even after being degraded all your vees are still zooming about like Wylie Coyote on PCP.

If you're just running Ravagers and flyers with Coven/Cult support you'll get more mileage out of Black Heart, but if you've got Venoms in any meaningful quantity Flayed Skull does serious work.

Flayed Skull is what i have seen overwhelmingly in ITC competitive play. Almost every opponent uses it in ITC events. i can't even recall one that didn't.

Having said that the last guy I played brought 7 planes (yes really) and 7 venoms. i did table all but his two hard to kill Archons. They're like cockroaches. But other than that I did well against it. i think that doing the Flayed Skull thing all out can have a serious achilles heel against some armies like the one I had and I can imagine others. So like most things in this Codex, the more I read it the more I see that mono faction or 90% monofaction type lists just aren't how this codex works the best. I'm quite worried about my own Coven list. It is going to be fun...But I don't know how it will stand up to real competition. We will see quite shortly.

 Jancoran wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Flayed Skull is *nasty* in a skimmer heavy army. Vect and his boys get all the glory, but not giving a damn about cover is a huge equalizer against 3+ infantry hugging rocks to get a 2+ against your poison. The +3 move also means even after being degraded all your vees are still zooming about like Wylie Coyote on PCP.

If you're just running Ravagers and flyers with Coven/Cult support you'll get more mileage out of Black Heart, but if you've got Venoms in any meaningful quantity Flayed Skull does serious work.

Flayed Skull is what i have seen overwhelmingly in ITC competitive play. Almost every opponent uses it in ITC events. i can't even recall one that didn't.

Having said that the last guy I played brought 7 planes (yes really) and 7 venoms. i did table all but his two hard to kill Archons. They're like cockroaches. But other than that I did well against it. i think that doing the Flayed Skull thing all out can have a serious achilles heel against some armies like the one I had and I can imagine others. So like most things in this Codex, the more I read it the more I see that mono faction or 90% monofaction type lists just aren't how this codex works the best. I'm quite worried about my own Coven list. It is going to be fun...But I don't know how it will stand up to real competition. We will see quite shortly.

DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.

DE is not Mono faction, you need to think of it as 3 mini dex's sadly. I wish it wasnt the case but GW really didnt want DE mixing well together like they use to.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.

How do you think Razorwing Missiles compare to a third Disintegrator (or Dark Lance)?

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.

How do you think Razorwing Missiles compare to a third Disintegrator (or Dark Lance)?

Its just more options, and i personally like it better, tho the missing the flat AP is what hurts, Mono and Necro missiles are amazing vs anything that has a 3++ (DW with Storm shield for example) and you still have a S7 -1ap re-roll wounds. I dont miss the 3rd Dis as i normally target something else with the missile, 48" is so good.

But i normally have 11-15 Dis cannons already, so i a bit saturated with them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.

How do you think Razorwing Missiles compare to a third Disintegrator (or Dark Lance)?

Its just more options, and i personally like it better, tho the missing the flat AP is what hurts, Mono and Necro missiles are amazing vs anything that has a 3++ (DW with Storm shield for example) and you still have a S7 -1ap re-roll wounds. I dont miss the 3rd Dis as i normally target something else with the missile, 48" is so good.

But i normally have 11-15 Dis cannons already, so i a bit saturated with them.

That's a lot of dissies. For me i think dissies are more useful on ravagers where you can get some archon boosting their re-rolls to hit. I think somebody mentioned a while ago that it was hard to have ravagers just stay put near an archon but i've actually not had too much trouble with it. I think it may also help to place 2-3 archons at different points around the board and moving the ravagers between them as needed. I'll try it in the future and see how it does.

As for dissies in normal play i'd say i find them to be incredibly useful in general against a wide variety of units. The only issue i really have with them is sometimes they leave something to be desired against tough tanks.

The thing i'm unsure about with both dissies and dark lance or void lance is dissies have trouble vs units like lots of leman russ tanks or similar as well as against certain units (wave serpents come to mind with the -1 damage shield). Dark lance and Void lances just aren't really good against anything but vehicles with a 5+ inv. save or worse. People just re-roll their inv. save the few times they fail it and in my games they fail so little i wonder if they have weighted dice.

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I really wish dark lances on infantry were any good and i'd use them but the constant moving causing you to be -1 to hit doesn't help them esp. since more of the new top codexes have a bunch of -1 modifiers to hit against shooting. Hitting on 4's or 5's with dark lances isn't exactly ideal. Blasters on the other hand just tend to die too fast on any platform they run on except archons and maybe reavers. I just wish reavers could run blasters more efficiently.

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I've also noticed our book is like 3 mini-factions with huge limitations. I was wondering when that'd catch up to us and apparently it already has. I noticed that we can't even take 2 battalions for kabal as we only have archons and it'd be a minimum of 4 archons (at least in 2k pts). This is similar for Covens and Cults too unless you take Cult of Strife or Prophets of Flesh due to special characters but it's still really rough since it's very limiting. Sadly most multi-faction units in our book are actually terrible. Cult and covens also have a similar role and i feel like Covens do it better. That said Cults can technically take everything Kabals can take excepting archons and their retinue, warriors and trueborn and those sweet, sweet Kabal obsessions. So yeah you can still have jets, bombers and ravagers as well as transports with wych cults. It's just wych cults and covens together would be a bit redundant.

Wych Cults can't take Ravagers.

 Burnage wrote:
Wych Cults can't take Ravagers.

In another detachment

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

That's a lot of dissies. For me i think dissies are more useful on ravagers where you can get some archon boosting their re-rolls to hit. I think somebody mentioned a while ago that it was hard to have ravagers just stay put near an archon but i've actually not had too much trouble with it. I think it may also help to place 2-3 archons at different points around the board and moving the ravagers between them as needed. I'll try it in the future and see how it does.

It's probably doable but it just seems like such a boring use for an Archon. Especially given their complete lack of ranged weapons. At least an Autarch could be shooting a Reaper Launcher from the back of the field but an Archon is just stuck twiddling his thumbs.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for dissies in normal play i'd say i find them to be incredibly useful in general against a wide variety of units. The only issue i really have with them is sometimes they leave something to be desired against tough tanks.

For me that's an understatement. My Disintegrators have literally never done anything of value against a tank.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

The thing i'm unsure about with both dissies and dark lance or void lance is dissies have trouble vs units like lots of leman russ tanks or similar as well as against certain units (wave serpents come to mind with the -1 damage shield). Dark lance and Void lances just aren't really good against anything but vehicles with a 5+ inv. save or worse. People just re-roll their inv. save the few times they fail it and in my games they fail so little i wonder if they have weighted dice.

The one thing I like about Dark Lances against tough vehicles is that when a shot gets through it usually hurts a lot. And even if I roll low, I can spend a CP to reroll it and try for a better result.

Meanwhile, if a single Disintegrator shot gets through all it can ever do is a piddling 2 damage.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I really wish dark lances on infantry were any good and i'd use them but the constant moving causing you to be -1 to hit doesn't help them esp. since more of the new top codexes have a bunch of -1 modifiers to hit against shooting. Hitting on 4's or 5's with dark lances isn't exactly ideal. Blasters on the other hand just tend to die too fast on any platform they run on except archons and maybe reavers. I just wish reavers could run blasters more efficiently.

Yeah, Dark Weapons on infantry are rather disappointing. Especially on Scourges. You've no idea how much I miss my Corsair Balestrike Bands from back in 7th.

To be honest, I think part of the issue is the lack of buffs in our army.
- We've only no psychic powers whatsoever.
- We've only got a single aura that can buff Kabalites (and it's the most basic one possible). I suppose 2 if you count the artefact but otherwise we're really lacking in buffs.
- Our units really want to be in transports, which means that the above auras don't work anyway (even if they're sharing the transport with the HQ) and also encourages them to move.
- Most of our Kabal-buffs are either based on movement or else only buff Splinter weapons (not Darklight ones).

As for Blasters, they're the main reason I've been considering using Obsidian Rose. Going from 18" to 24" seems pretty significant and could make them almost replacement Dark Lances on infantry.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I've also noticed our book is like 3 mini-factions with huge limitations. I was wondering when that'd catch up to us and apparently it already has. I noticed that we can't even take 2 battalions for kabal as we only have archons and it'd be a minimum of 4 archons (at least in 2k pts). This is similar for Covens and Cults too unless you take Cult of Strife or Prophets of Flesh due to special characters but it's still really rough since it's very limiting. Sadly most multi-faction units in our book are actually terrible. Cult and covens also have a similar role and i feel like Covens do it better. That said Cults can technically take everything Kabals can take excepting archons and their retinue, warriors and trueborn and those sweet, sweet Kabal obsessions. So yeah you can still have jets, bombers and ravagers as well as transports with wych cults. It's just wych cults and covens together would be a bit redundant.

I wouldn't necessarily oppose the splitting of our army . . . if GW hadn't stripped us of about half our units. Off the top of my head we've lost:
- Vect
- The Decapitator
- The Duke
- Baron Sathonyx
- Lady Malys
- Jetbike Archons.
- Skyboard Archons
- Jetbike Haemonculi.
- Skyboard Haemonculi
- Dracons
- Mini-Haemonculi
- Harlequins
- Bloodbrides (I know they're in the Index but there's basically 0 point to taking them over regular Wyches)

And unless I'm mistaken we haven't gained a new unit since 5th edition (GW has been engaged in more important projects - like making Bigger Marines and Really Big Marines).

So a codex that had already cut to the bone has now been split into 3 mini-armies (plus Mercenaries), each with fewer units than Sisters of Battle.

It might be bearable if our HQ section (what little of it we have left) wasn't such a complete and utter crapfest.