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DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.

With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.

I dunno. I still think incubi aren't good enough even with the points drop esp. Since the have no sub-faction boosts. Hellion still probably aren't good enough because they cost too many points and negate no armor. With few exceptions our melee is anti infantry only or about bogging enemies down with little to no AP. Dissie jets still aren't that good compared to ravagers with dissies. Void raven might replace the jets.

Coven with dark technomancers on raiders with dissies is still there and still good. Kabal did get hit pretty hard though. I honestly don't get why they nerfed ravagers and jets but not talos or something. That's kind of a sick joke esp. Since ravagers have a limit of 3 in a 2k list and talos could get up to 9 if they wanted.

They tried to hit the soup options in CA. Black Heart Spearheads and Airwings were popping up in tons of Eldar lists, and the points changes seem tailored to nerfing those. If you're running a Kabal Battalion (or even a Battalion and Spearhead) with multiple Archons then the points have basically evened out.

I don't actually think the changes really open up any new builds for us, though. Maybe Reavers are more attractive now. I'm massively disappointed that Beasts didn't get tweaked, I was hoping they'd become viable as chaff units that we desperately need.

I'm liking the look of Mandrakes in Venoms. Something like (Brian fart, can't have 6 squads of Mandrakes, just halve all the numbers!):

Vanguard (Dark Technomancers/Master of Mutagens)
HQ
Haemonculus

Elites
6x 5 Mandrakes

Dedicated Transport
6x Venom, Double Splinter Cannon

That's 970 points for solid firepower that can deal with most things, with only a 70 point tax. The Mandrakes are also dangerous against chaff on objectives in melee.

I've calculated the returns against some common targets.

T8/10+W/3+ Armour (Knight/Russ/Etc.)

Average Wounds in One Turn: 10 2/3 (Poison) + 10 (Baleblast) = 20 2/3

Assume a cost of ~500 for 24 wounds gives a return of 430 points, close to 50%, which is respectable.

ROI: ~50%

This means that if you have any other shooting for your other 1030 points you can probably down the Knight.

T7/8W/3+ Armour/5+ FnP (Nurgle Prince)

Average Princes Killed in One Turn: 2 (Poison) + 1 (Baleblast)

Assume a cost of ~150 per prince gives a return of 450 points, close to 50%, which is respectable.

ROI: ~50%

T4/2W/3+ Armour

Average Primaris Killed in One Turn: 12 (Poison) + 8 (Baleblast) = 20

For Intercessors at 17 points, this gives 340 points killed, which is only a 35% ROI, not as good as other targets, but still pretty good.

Intercessors ROI: ~35%

For Hellblasters at 33 points, this gives 660 points killed, which is a massive 68% ROI, which is obviously amazing.

Hellblaster ROI: ~68%

So for Primaris overall, we can assume ~50% RoI similar to the earlier targets.

T3/1W/5+ Armour

Average Guardsmen Killed in One Turn: 24 (Poison) + 8 (Baleblast) = 28 8/9 = 52

For Guardsmen at 4 points, this gives 208 points killed, which is 21% ROI, the lowest so far, but also pretty good against guardsmen. Killing 5 squads with half your army will seriously mess with peoples board control, or wipe a smaller supporting block of Guard Infantry.

Guardsmen ROI: ~21%

Remember this doesn't include jumping out and charging with the 'drakes, which isn't too shabby against Marines and Guradsmen either.

 Burnage wrote:
They tried to hit the soup options in CA. Black Heart Spearheads and Airwings were popping up in tons of Eldar lists, and the points changes seem tailored to nerfing those. If you're running a Kabal Battalion (or even a Battalion and Spearhead) with multiple Archons then the points have basically evened out.

I don't actually think the changes really open up any new builds for us, though. Maybe Reavers are more attractive now. I'm massively disappointed that Beasts didn't get tweaked, I was hoping they'd become viable as chaff units that we desperately need.

I think GW is still hating on the RWF spam from 1.0 of 8th lol. Beasts wont get touched for a bit i fear.

What do people think about running Test of Skill+Slashing Impact on the new cheaper reavers? 12 Reavers with just grav talons is 204pts, if you add in 4 blasters it's 272pts. You can save 20pts by using a heat lance but blasters are wounding big t7 monsters and vehicles on 2+, 3+ if it's t8.

36 reavers with t5 seems like a steal as long as you have enough wyches to give the bad stat drugs.

RedGriefer wrote:
What do people think about running Test of Skill+Slashing Impact on the new cheaper reavers? 12 Reavers with just grav talons is 204pts, if you add in 4 blasters it's 272pts. You can save 20pts by using a heat lance but blasters are wounding big t7 monsters and vehicles on 2+, 3+ if it's t8.

36 reavers with t5 seems like a steal as long as you have enough wyches to give the bad stat drugs.

wouldnt you need 15 other wych units in order to give 3 squads of bikes painbringer? I like the concept and might try runnning 12 bikes but lets say we try and give all 3painbringer:

double battalion
succ with stimm adept,
succ,
succ,
6x wyches

thats only 10 slots for drugs.

so youre putting a ton of pts into a fragile unit in order to maximize your reavers.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

wouldnt you need 15 other wych units in order to give 3 squads of bikes painbringer?

Nope. Once you get through the mandatory first round you can freely allocate.

Sterling191 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

wouldnt you need 15 other wych units in order to give 3 squads of bikes painbringer?

Nope. Once you get through the mandatory first round you can freely allocate.

wait, really? i thought you needed to always give all 6 before allowing for the next round. Thats pretty cool then

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

wouldnt you need 15 other wych units in order to give 3 squads of bikes painbringer?

Nope. Once you get through the mandatory first round you can freely allocate.

wait, really? i thought you needed to always give all 6 before allowing for the next round. Thats pretty cool then

Yeah, it's been that way for as long as I can remember in 8th.

So test of skill seems great on flyers and other than that there's really no other wych obsession which is good for flyers. May as well run an outrider detachment with max reavers, 2 razorwings, and maybe drazhar as the HQ. Then fill out a battalion with Red Grief wyches with shardnets in raiders to help pin down units and disrupt to protect the reavers as they run around smashing stuff. I don't see slashing impact well worth it on wyches too be honest.

With 12 reavers, if you get the charge off and all get in, and if all of them are able to get within 1" of an enemy, you'd have on average 4 wounds from slashing impact and 2 wounds from grav talons even before they attack. On top of that you have bladevanes which would t7 on a 4+.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

wait, really? i thought you needed to always give all 6 before allowing for the next round.

Nope, been that way since the beginning of 8th. It usually never came up, as playing mono-Cult was generally a terrible idea, so nobody dealt with it.

RedGriefer wrote:

So test of skill seems great on flyers and other than that there's really no other wych obsession which is good for flyers.

i use berserk fugue as my second obsession when running an airwing, it helps in the edge cases where my flyers get charged. its super situational but its the only obsession that does anything (that and precise killers)

RedGriefer wrote:

With 12 reavers, if you get the charge off and all get in, and if all of them are able to get within 1" of an enemy, you'd have on average 4 wounds from slashing impact and 2 wounds from grav talons even before they attack. On top of that you have bladevanes which would t7 on a 4+.

yeah i've tried them recently and they did a nice amount of damage on their charge. Slashing impact not working on vehilcles is a big downside tho.

Anyone notice Venoms went down but Raiders stayed the same? I personally think it's hilarious.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone notice Venoms went down but Raiders stayed the same? I personally think it's hilarious.

yeah, smart decisions by GW.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone notice Venoms went down but Raiders stayed the same? I personally think it's hilarious.

Venoms haven't gone down, they're still 55 points. Add 10 for the default single Splinter Cannon.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.

With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.

Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.

With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.

Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.

its almost like DE has no unit variety and relies on spamming 1 good weapon. there is a reason star cannons went down to 2 shots, maybe dissies should get the same treatment

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.

With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.

Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.

its almost like DE has no unit variety and relies on spamming 1 good weapon. there is a reason star cannons went down to 2 shots, maybe dissies should get the same treatment

Or, you know, maybe Dark Eldar could get more than 2 weapon options.

 vipoid wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.

With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.

Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.

its almost like DE has no unit variety and relies on spamming 1 good weapon. there is a reason star cannons went down to 2 shots, maybe dissies should get the same treatment

Or, you know, maybe Dark Eldar could get more than 2 weapon options.

Don't be ridiculous. You'll be asking for Lieutenant level characters next.

Not only that but maybe they could allow mandrakes, incubi and scourge some form of sub-faction obsessions.

Honestly while dissies are good or decent they could instead make other weapon options viable. Crazy I know but hear me out. Allow obsidian rose to effect scourge so they can get the half range melta heat lance working. Maybe make scourge cheaper because right now they all die within a turn and versus things like riptides and knights they just get laughed aside regardless of loadout. Also haywire would be nicer if we didnt only have 2 units with it and one dies instantly. I'll admit reavers being cheaper helps but it'd be nice to have bikes with -1 to be hit like gsc and Harlies as well as the 1 special weapon per 3 bikes to be 1 per 2 or something or more weapon variety. Why remake wracks with 1 new weapon and make all their weapons suck in 8th anyway?

Right now I feel like the only worthwhile weapons are shredders, dark lance/Void lance or dissies and dissies are good against most things at range and depending on the situation shredders can be points effective or not. I don't know that they can do much vs plague marines, custodes or terminator but just about all other infantry get wiped by them.

I want to know why our flyers aren't as nimble as Craftworld ones? We're meant to be the less armoured but faster flavour of Aeldari, after all.

Anyway, I am wondering about grabbing a Reaper from FW for Xmas. I am struggling to focus down vehicles with just Disintgrator spam. I already have a RWJ and a Voidraven.

 Souleater wrote:
I want to know why our flyers aren't as nimble as Craftworld ones? We're meant to be the less armoured but faster flavour of Aeldari, after all.

Presumably the same reason Raiders and Ravagers are markedly slower than Eldar tanks. Hell, even Venoms can only match their speed.

No one remembers DE lore when writing the rules is my guess. Remembering we exist is rare.

Fair enough.

Is the Reaper a decent pick?

 Souleater wrote:
Fair enough.

Is the Reaper a decent pick?

It's fine, just not as reliable as a Ravager in most cases.

With the new Chapter Approved, dark lances are now cheaper than blasters. Kinda weird tbh.

Deleted

-Guardsman- wrote:
With the new Chapter Approved, dark lances are now cheaper than blasters. Kinda weird tbh.

That bc 1 is assault on infantry and the other isn't. Its far for that purpose.

 Gnarlly wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
With the new Chapter Approved, dark lances are now cheaper than blasters. Kinda weird tbh.

Same points now.

Same? Have Blasters gone down to 15?

 Souleater wrote:
I want to know why our flyers aren't as nimble as Craftworld ones? We're meant to be the less armoured but faster flavour of Aeldari, after all.

Anyway, I am wondering about grabbing a Reaper from FW for Xmas. I am struggling to focus down vehicles with just Disintgrator spam. I already have a RWJ and a Voidraven.

I'm honestly thinking about taking 2 void lance void ravens with wych cults and giving them test of skill. I should've done that today but forgot. Wounding leman russ tanks on a 2 sounds really sweet.

I couldn't get chapter approved today as the local GW didn't get the shipment from FedEx. I heard plenty of GW's suffered from this and we were one of the unfortunates. 1 week of nothing isn't a big deal though and I think my list evens out anyway.